All I'm suggesting is that at the end of the day for us age groupers and elite athletes, it's not going to make a diffrence as to what triathlon bike you roll out of the bike shop in terms of triathlon performance because there are other more significant variables that factor in to race day bike performance such as mental preparation, mental toughness, muscular strenght, cardiovascular performance, etc, so just pick the bike that looks the coolest because it's pure fantasy to beleve that by picking one bike over another you will be "poof" magically faster than anyone else who might be on say a beach cruiser.

I'm really fortunate that I have gotten to advise some really talented athletes and watch them go on to win races. Whether it is at the professional level, or just a cat 4 time trial, it is beautiful to see science applied alongside hard work and talent and getting results.

Maybe I, or someone more knowledgeable than me, can work with you one day Bull Winkle, and make you a little better than you are now.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I agree with Jack and Bull. It's a matter of context and ability to use or apply the technology.

If you take a good athlete that is already fast, has the ability to hit and sustain the marks in terms of position and sufficient power, then you have opportunity for technology application. Because the science and numbers mean more at higher speeds. Athlete and bike working together, greater than their individual parts, as a single system of speed. Everything, all those little tweaks, truly add up. This type of athlete is fast on a beach cruiser as well.

The bull counterpoint, or debrief is that marginal gains hyper bike, over a decent bike -(of which take your pick )- are lost on the majority of athletes. That is true! I looked across the bike rack in our little local race and there were some pretty hot $$ bikes that ended up down the chart. My expectation was they would have been much faster.

After 8 days solid riding this week, two in aero clothing, I have come to the conclusion in 2015 I am working on me - position, technique, suit, helmet, not the damn bike!!

That is after I get back to lab building up this Di2 screamer this week: no FD, HED trispoke+disc, slammed/ minimalist bars set narrow & short, Vision Aero crank, shaved/narrow pedal system, no water, no spares.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

The degree to which aerodynamics matter is really only related to how important it is for the athlete to go a little quicker. A frame with a few grams less drag is never wasted on a an athlete, no matter how slow, unless they don't care that they just went a little bit quicker.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

This is really the crux of my issue. I know a P5/pimped P3 won't wipe 30 mins off my Ironman split and put me up with the pros, but the question is how much would it take off all things being equal? If I was looking at 10 - 15 mins, then I'm willing to part with my cash as I think hitting my goal of a sub 10 next year at IM will come down to a matter of minutes if I get the right training in. However, if we are talking 3-5 mins then it becomes much more of a sticking point as that is some premium to get very little free speed.

What I like about going the P3 route is that I can build it up bit by bit before next summer. I can drop $3000 dollars on the frame, and then get the bars and the rest of it as I go over the next few months. The P5 from what I have seen requires it all upfront - there are very few places selling just the frame, and the ones that are seem to be asking nearly as much as those where you can get the complete bike! However, the P5 has the bling in my eyes anyway, and as mentioned on a previous post, there is a lot to be said for buying what makes your heart flutter, and encourages you to go ride hard! I could see myself throwing my legs over the P5 in July next year and thinking let's smash the **** outta this course.

Looking at going around 5 hours for the Ironman bike, I am approaching speeds I believe that would see me benefit from a P5. I can hold aero tuck all day long on my E11, and assuming I can get the setup close to that, should be able to do the same on the P5. From what I have read though it seems that the P5 is only head and shoulders above other 'super bikes' at high speeds - i.e. Fabian Cancellara in a 10km prologue. My concern is take this to the real world of Ironman racing where you sit on a sub threshold power for most of the way around and I lose all of those free minutes as I am just not going fast enough.

I guess the pros would all race on P5's if there was a huge advantage to be had from it, so I take the point of no bike is going to make you fast overnight. I don't know, I am flitting from save the money, buy the P3, buy the P5 every 5 minutes!

Yeah it is going to be more like 5 minutes time savings when you upgrade than 15 minutes.

And the P5 over a P3 with good aerobars is only going to be a few seconds.

You will see the about same time savings benefit from a more aero bike no matter how fast or slow you are, so don't worry about that.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

If money is not an issue, or course get the P5.

I have a bike which works. Now, if I get a new bike, maybe I save 1 or 2 minutes in a 40K. Is any money worth this savings? How much extra time savings, if really any, do I get
between a P2 to P3 let alone a P5.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

probably real close to 0, assuming same aerobars on each.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

That is what I keep getting back to. Do I just try to find a 61 P2 10 speed for 2K and get the biggest bang for the buck.

Or do I buy a 11 speed Di2 P3 and have to also buy new race wheels? I only live once but .....

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

between P2 and P3 I actually agree with Bull Winkle.
Chose by paint.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

So again, back to thinking I'll get the P3 and save the cash...If this was purely a business decision as it were then that would be the end of it, but am I going to be eyeing the P5's next year in T1 and thinking I should have spent the extra cash purely because I want the best!

Just think of those poor p5 bastards occasionally having to adjust their hidden rear brake and laugh and laugh.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Nah, will chose by cost. If I can find a 61 gathering dust at a bike shop who just wants to get rid of it, well, ...

/

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I went out today and brought the P5 (2014, old colour scheme frame). I got a bit more cash for xmas and sold a couple of items the past week, and just about scraped together the required. The guy in the shop thought I was crazy emptying out all my coins on the counter. Anyway, it all added up and after a Retul fit in the next couple of weeks, the bike will be built up and shipped to me for the end of Jan it looks. I am beyond excited.

Thanks for the input on here. I completely get the whole P3 not being much if any slower, and a whole lot cheaper, but this was one of those purchases of the heart rather than the head. I just wanted a P5.

So, onto my next question.

I am going to be putting my circa 2006 Zipp 999 wheelset on. These cannot run 11 speed, so I am going to bodge it and take the 14 cog out of the cassette and run it as a 10 speed. I have been doing this on my road bike the past year and works well with the DA9000.

I have 7 months now until my next big race, and I could feasibly save up the required for a new 808 front and Super-9 disc combo. Are the performance gains over my Zipp 999 setup going to be so minuscule that I shouldn't bother? It would let me run 11 speed of course, but I'm not massively fussed about that as 10 will be ample.

Cheers.

PS - the new colour scheme for 2015 isn't actually that bad in the flesh as it were. I hated it online, but the shop I went to today had one build up and it did look quite smart. Not £2000 extra smart though...

For the most part a disc is a disc, so if you want to upgrade for 11 speed reasons, you don't have to get an expensive disc from Zipp.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Hi guys,

I am in a similar position as ironmike, but leaning towards a P3 due to the relative simplicity of packing and maintenance.

Does anyone have data or an educated guess on how much the Aura aero bars give up to the 3T Aduro or Zipp Vuka Stealth? I can get a good deal on the P3, but it would come as the standard build.

I would say the new Aura is ok as well, except if you have the magura brakes it puts the levers in an very unaero orientation.

You could probably sell the aura and get a brezza or felt devox bar for very little net cost and save a few seconds per 40k

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Great - thank you

The np3 comes with ultegra brakes in europe. I would possibly go for magura brakes, if they had a standard di2 integration, but until then I can ponder over whether to replace the aero bar or not.

I have the P3 set up with DI2 and the 3T Ventus II bars with Tririg extensions and the Tririg omega brakes along with Dura Ace T75 wheels. I know the 3T bars don't fit everyone as I needed to move my arm cups out further to get a proper fit. The Ventus pads do not have a fore/aft option so I decided to make my own cups out of 8" pipe that I cut in half and made my own cups with pads and they work great. I now have a proper fit, and I am pretty sure this P3 is about as fast as a super bike that one can get. I can try to post a pic later tonight when I am home.

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-Cervelo-Shimano-Asics-NormatecMVP-GU-BlueSeventy-XlabUSA-Skins-Polar-Vittoria-Trico Sports-Skins-3T-CarbonPro Sports-Pioneer PowerMeter-BodyArmor-TriTats-

Hi Jack and other aero gurus.
I just read a recent post by Jim@Erosports re the Speed Concept being fastest in their tests, while also noting some other opinions/data re low yaw angles being of paramount importance, and jackmott's note in this thread re difference between P5-3 and P3 as being "very close"; his advice to me re Gen 1 SC and Gen 2 SC likewise being "very close"; and someone else's data (Brian Stover?) re the SC having better time savings than the P5 for slower riders 6hrs and above for 180km.
Present tribike is Trek SC Gen 1 7.0 with Ventus II. BOP biker, slowly improving.
Assuming prices are almost exactly the same, all frames fit, and using the same cockpit (Ventus II and later perhaps the Alpha X), mechanical groupset and Tririg brakes, Super 9 and 1080 (or 808), could you give an opinion as to which frame would be faster:
1) Gen 2 Trek SC 7.0
2) Cervelo P5-3 (difficult to adjust rear brake?)
3) Cervelo New P2 (can't reroute cable by drilling due to warranty issues)
4) no significant difference from present setup, aerowise?
Thanks very much!

What do you think you are losing with your current setup? Probably not much... I would say jusy ride your bike and get fit.

But if you are set on a new bike, I would go with the p2. You can route the rear brake on the tt without needing to modify anything and is is everything the new p3 is with a slightly different fork but cheaper cost. Plus the new color is pretty nice as opposed to the old blue.

If you want something to upgrade over time, get the speedconept 7 and you can get the integrated cockpit later if you want.

In theory and in the tunnel new parts bring a lot of time. If you add up all the improvements (a helmet 5 minutes, a rear disk ...) you gain an unrealistic amount of time.

I rode 3 tribikes:

1. Aluminium Quintana Roo Caliente (the orange one)
2. Cervelo P2 (the blue one)
3. Cervelo P3 (old design)

I need the same watts for the same speeds with the same wheels and helmets. No big difference in aerowheels (Xentis vs. HED vs. SRAM/Flashpoint) either but a BIG difference whether or not I use "some" aerowheels and an aerohelmet.

Now a friend has 10kg less on his body, a pimped out P5 and rides a big loop with me (sitting about 80% on my wheel) and saves 10 Watts.

Industry must tell us new stories every year, but an old Cervelo P2 with a disk and a good frontwheel, a tight skinsuit and some aerohelmet ... I doubt you will loose much time ...

Thanks for chiming in, Zach! Yep, I'm riding regularly doing my best to get fit :). Just checking for opinions re the frames (bargains only available for the next few days, which is why I'm asking now, otherwise I won't be buying at all).
If I do get the Gen 2 SC, I think I'd go Alpha X rather than the integrated cockpit for future transfer purposes. And the Tririg aero test seems pretty positive vs other bars.

ETA: Sorry, the NP2 frame on offer is the boring old blue :)

Okay, more searching through the forums gives 100 gms difference between P2 to P5 or 1 sec per km (jackmott, Feb 2013), and we've seen wind tunnel drag flip-flop between the two set ups (P5-6 and P5-3 forks) in various comparisons. Neither one is always reliably faster.(damon rinard, Oct 2014). So the NP2 is removed from the choices.
The Trek white paper says the new Speed Concept with rider on saves an average of 43 grams over the critical yaw range of -12.5 to +12.5 degrees compared to the previous Speed Concept, of which 20 gms is due to the new cockpit, and 10 gms (?) due to the speed fin. So with the Gen 2 saving 23 gms from frame and speedfin, the older SC loses about 41 seconds per 180 km.
I guess it's basically just the Gen 2 SC vs the P5-3, of which there have been several tests done already.

That's fair On the integrated cockpit on the sc.

I just want to be the voice of reason and say just ride your ass off and don't worry about the gear just yet. I have played the bike hoping game. It's not as fun as just riding and being happy where you are.

But shiny new toys are always fun....have fun!