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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [SAvan] [ In reply to ]
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SAvan wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
rbuike wrote:
http://www.triathlonsa.co.za/...iewNews.aspx?id=1046

Fairly consistent results over the last few years makes me wonder.....

http://www.the-sports.org/...thlon-spf124156.html


I was just thinking of this thread, and if nothing else kudos to the guys in South Africa for actually testing. Over the last 30 years racing in Canada, I have not been tested a single time and have not heard of any of my buddies being tested. During this time, we have collectively won Kona slots, national championships, Armed Forces Championships, 70.3 WC lots....never a single whiff of getting tested.

I get it, we are age groupers and the drug testing police here in Canada have bigger fish to fry...but as a very minimum, the folks in South Africa busted one of their own. How often does that happen in the age grouper ranks in Canada?

Just testing once in a while (even once a year at nationals or a major IM) might keep a few people on the honest side. Right now, it's basically the wild west around here. If you are South African, German, or American, your safe bet is racing in Canada in the land of Ben Johnson for KQ slots LOL :-)


Hi Dev

We are acutally tested quite often here in SA. Obviously not the small local races, but if you win your AG at any of the big events (IM, 70.3, 5150s, provincial and national champs, etc) chances are you will be called to go pee in cup as they hand you your finishers medal...

I'm friends with another top AG female (not the one busted!) and she gets tested most big races if she wins.

This is awesome....we have had zero testing in Canada in every high profile race I have been in during the last 30 years in triathlon...personally I have been on my age group podium in nationals, won armed forces nationals, several 70.3 podiums, and certainly when I got Kona slots at US or Euro races never tested. Give me a cup and I want to pee in the stupid thing and please take my blood. I just want more testing, even in competition is better than zero and Maurice has given some perfectly good ideas which I believe you guys seems to be essentially implementing in South Africa.

Perhaps, I need to make a flight over to Port Elizabeth for IM South Africa for next spring's race. Seems like this is the type of environment I want to race in, where at least guys who visit the anti aging clinic and show up to race 50-54 have some fear of testing. At IM Texas, there is a Testosterone/Anti aging clinic in the parking lot across from transition and there is certainly no testing in any US IM that I have been at.

Kudos to the tri fed in South Africa to at least have this level of testing. I heard it is similar in Norway for tri and XC skiing. Here in Canada, it is the wild west, but I THINK the overall culture at the age group level is pretty clean, but there will be guys who can escape under the radar and dope to the gills.
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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [SAvan] [ In reply to ]
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Random testing is a waste of money. Tests have to be targeted to be useful.
It is not that hard to know who is cheating, you can see pattern.

Worst use of testing is to test to look good. You just test athletes you assume are clean to say that you are fighting doping.
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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Halvard wrote:
Random testing is a waste of money. Tests have to be targeted to be useful.
It is not that hard to know who is cheating, you can see pattern.

Worst use of testing is to test to look good. You just test athletes you assume are clean to say that you are fighting doping.

I agree. Winners, or anything that seems obvious.
I know there are always going to be those who say they don't want to place 45th instead of 44th due to the guy in front of them doping, but it gets pretty damn expensive.
I believe testing is approx. $1500 - $2000 per test? Even targeted testing, say the top 3 in every age group for male and female, would cost pretty close to 100k, no? Ouch!
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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
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Halvard wrote:
Random testing is a waste of money. Tests have to be targeted to be useful.
It is not that hard to know who is cheating, you can see pattern.

Worst use of testing is to test to look good. You just test athletes you assume are clean to say that you are fighting doping.

I agree, it really is not that hard to probably get close.

Look at a racers results over the years. When Joe said moats left the sport for a while and then came back with much faster bike times, should have been a red flag.

Also just look at how the person looks. Sorry, if you are over 50 and look like a piece of iron, well some might not be clean.

So yep, put some logic behind what you do. Do OOC testing like how they got moats. I sure would pay some money in my USAT dues. Sure would rather see some of my money
go towards AG drug testing than to the elites.

.

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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Halvard wrote:
Random testing is a waste of money. Tests have to be targeted to be useful.
It is not that hard to know who is cheating, you can see pattern.

Worst use of testing is to test to look good. You just test athletes you assume are clean to say that you are fighting doping.


I agree, it really is not that hard to probably get close.

Look at a racers results over the years. When Joe said moats left the sport for a while and then came back with much faster bike times, should have been a red flag.

Also just look at how the person looks. Sorry, if you are over 50 and look like a piece of iron, well some might not be clean.

So yep, put some logic behind what you do. Do OOC testing like how they got moats. I sure would pay some money in my USAT dues. Sure would rather see some of my money
go towards AG drug testing than to the elites.

.

I don't think that random test and making podium guys pee in a container after racing is totally wasted. As a very bare minimum, it keeps somewhat honest people honest and serves as a minor deterrent at very low cost. As Maurice said, you don't have actually test the samples....just taking the samples is a starting point. It's just like having drafting marshals on course versus none. Amazingly, when people hear the moto they break up the pelotons. Just the fear of a sanction, whether is a drafting penalty or a doping pop will keep some honest people honest and at a low cost it HELP to level the playing field. The cheaters will cheat, but at least if there is a threat of testing the honest people will think that they have a hope of winning while being clean and generally the playing field will stay a bit more level. That's better than nothing.

We don't have to solve world hunger with the perfect program. Sure, targeted testing for guys like Moats out of competition would be even better, but that gets expensive and we have to balance idealistic goals with economics and practicality.

Seems like the South African system got something done even with this very rudimentary system of testing winners at 70.3 South Africa in East London. Clearly, it is known in South Africa that age group podium folks get tested, and even then she was stupid enough to get caught.

This alone had me looking at airfares and personal schedules to see if I can make it to IM South Africa this year (oh yes, there is this little challenge call training, but I digress). I am tired of racing in North America knowing that there are many masters dopers beating me. Sure, I can go all the way to South Africa to have 50-54 dopers beat me there, but I just feel I will have a more level chance. I doubt an American doper (or German or Canadian doper....pick your country) will get on a plane to go all the way there, even though the chance of getting busted in competition is low. They will race at IM Texas or LP or Tremblant etc etc where there is ZERO chance of a bust.

But at least the South Africans are doing something about it. Here is North America it is zilch.

Dev
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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. Something is better than nothing.

When ITU worlds in Germany said they were going to random drug test AGer's , which they did, was amazing how many on TeamUSA just were no longer able to go.

You and I both know that what is being done is just lip service to say look we are testing. If I were the CEO's of these company's, I would do the same thing.
Whether it is doping, or drafting or what ever rule violation some say are happening, unless someone can prove it impacts their bottom line, and races
filling up before they even go online, would say they have no issues.

.

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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [SAvan] [ In reply to ]
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SAvan wrote:

The whole scenario was a bit rediculous, but I think it is good that they are doing "random" testing like this and sending out this message.

No, "random" testing isn't a good use of scarce resources. Test suspicious athletes, past winners, athletes that haven't been tested before despite doing well. That is what USADA does in cycling and that is what scares people-especially the Type A FOP athletes more likely to dope in the first place. Fly too close to the sun and you will get caught, that is the most efficient message to send.

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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [Jordano] [ In reply to ]
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Jordano wrote:
SAvan wrote:


The whole scenario was a bit rediculous, but I think it is good that they are doing "random" testing like this and sending out this message.


No, "random" testing isn't a good use of scarce resources. Test suspicious athletes, past winners, athletes that haven't been tested before despite doing well. That is what USADA does in cycling and that is what scares people-especially the Type A FOP athletes more likely to dope in the first place. Fly too close to the sun and you will get caught, that is the most efficient message to send.

I think you are confusing actually nailing guys by dope testing with using the presence of dope testing as a deterrent. The latter is the first step, and it becomes stronger if they nail guys from time to time with targeted stuff. I see your angle and you're talking from the angle of an elite athlete. At the age group level, just having a deterrent is a great starting point. If through some targeted stuff they also nail the likes of Moats, that's a bonus but much more expensive than just simply doing in competition testing....and i get that any person with marginal intelligence can avoid "glowing" during an in competition test. However, knowing that I can go to IMSouth Africa and no one who gets a KQ slot can be glowing that day, thins the field of dopers that I have to compete against. They can compete in Lake Placid or Texas or Arizona glow at 10,000 watt brightness and still collect their KQ slot.
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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't "nailing" folks a more effective way of getting the message out and deterring would be dopers. Like you said, I have an elite perspective but personally I can say that when my (former) friend and teammate Sebastian Salas got nailed in a targeted test (he had been away from competition for awhile and approaching the peak of his season) I suddenly felt more paranoid about anti-doping than ever before. I would never dope and risk that kind of a public whipping. When people get caught, the threat becomes real. Doesn't that hold true for everyone, not just elites?

And by targeted testing I don't mean just the winners, I mean first time KQ's, big improvers, people who got to Kona through only untested races and anyone else who arouses suspicion (could even be through anonymous tips etc.).

We are probably talking the same language here but I think the details of "deterrence" are important.

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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [Jordano] [ In reply to ]
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Jordano wrote:
Isn't "nailing" folks a more effective way of getting the message out and deterring would be dopers. Like you said, I have an elite perspective but personally I can say that when my (former) friend and teammate Sebastian Salas got nailed in a targeted test (he had been away from competition for awhile and approaching the peak of his season) I suddenly felt more paranoid about anti-doping than ever before. I would never dope and risk that kind of a public whipping. When people get caught, the threat becomes real. Doesn't that hold true for everyone, not just elites?

And by targeted testing I don't mean just the winners, I mean first time KQ's, big improvers, people who got to Kona through only untested races and anyone else who arouses suspicion (could even be through anonymous tips etc.).

We are probably talking the same language here but I think the details of "deterrence" are important.

I agree.

With limited amount of money to be used on testing it has to be targeted. Having athletes peeing in a jar for so flush it down the toilet is an old strategy used in triathlon if I am not wrong, and it is a bad one.
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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Dev,

Like most I think I have way more questions than solutions, most of my questions surround the economics of testing.

IE what are the costs? Can you stream line testing and collection?

Can you collect a lot but only sample a few? (you could relate that to a speed trap in a school zone, maybe not too many get caught but everyone slows down)

Are the costs fixed, IE 1500$ per test no matter what?

I talked to the media guy from CCES (similar to USADA but in Canada) yesterday and he explained some of the logistics and some of the training of the people who conduct both IC and OOC testing.

Basically there are 500 people across Canada who do this, of that about 100 are DCO's or (doping control officers) they get paid a "certain" amount but are considered casual employees, the other 400 are volunteers or "chaperones". Basically at any one venue you will need at least one DCO and 2-4 "chaperones" It appears in Canada at least they still escort you from the finish (if it is IC) to control. I know at a few road races in the states (Sea Otter) they used to just post a list and it was your responsibility to get there, not sure if it still the same.

So basically with WADA now the only people who are allowed to conduct testing are the accredited bodies in the nation hosting the race (CCES in Canada and USADA in the U.S.) For example WTC couldn't just go train people and do it themselves (say like draft marshals in certain cases) WTC is tied to WADA protocol, in that case the athlete has certain rights (and responsibilities) which are meant to be observed world wide, IE in theory testing should be like Mcdonalds….You get the same service, and transparency and testing efficacy every where….in theory.

So for me the questions were around efficiency with testing, say if you have 2 HIM 70.3 one in Victoria one in Calgary. I was wondering if because there is a high likely hood of having all the trained DCO and chaperone people in both those cities (due to various national training centres), they don't have to pay travel etc….the cost or overhead of setting up the testing likely goes down by a lot say maybe compared to more remote venues.

1) So the question was wether or not the costs were fixed IE 1500$ per test no matter what, or wether the travel, labour and testing costs were calculated and then a bill was handed over to WTC or TRI Can or USAT (or USAC etc)

2) The other question was wether or not you could go through steps 1-4 (notifying the athlete, escorting them to control, sampling, then collection and paper work) but skip step 5 (actual lab testing) Basically is this against WADA?

To question 1, if the costs are separated (flexible cost structure….at the end you get a bill) and based on an accounting of labour, travel, lab work etc then maybe it makes more sense to have mare testing (using our Western Canadian example) at Calgary 70.3 and Victoria 70.3, if they are fixed….say at 1500$ per test…. then maybe you focus resources in Whistler.

To question 2, Is "over" collection a WADA violation, I don't think it is but I could be wrong (IE a high sampling rate vs a lower or targeted testing rate)

In the end the media guy was very nice but chose to defer most of my questions to "the manager of procedures and personnel"… I forwarded an e-mail with a bunch of questions, "the media guy" got back to me right away and indicated the above manager would be away until december 1st, sorry….like I say I have more questions than answers.

Having said that even if the costs are fixed, at say 1500$ per test. All it would take say at Whistler or any other IM would be for them to announce that when you sign the paper work for Kona, you will be immediately required to stay put and report to doping control, I don't think they need to test all 50 people, you could just have a budget for 5 tests (or keep it random 10 test at one race 5 at the next etc) and when all 50 people are present, you announce 5 names (perhaps targeted) and allow the rest to leave. The threat of testing before you take your spot…maybe the people who for some "mysterious reason" don't take take a KQ spot and aren't caught but at least they're out of the game for a bit….and perhaps they re-think their values, I also think that there are more than a few athletes out there who aren't "malicious or dirty" per say but might be taking vitamins, supplements etc which would put them in a "positive" situation…..this would also give those athletes time to reflect a bit.

I would love to see the roll down numbers for Kona if they did that ;-)

Maurice
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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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I love your idea. Before the race tell everyone that before any money is taken to get a Kona slot, everyone gets into one room to see who gets picked for drug testing. They have no idea how many, if 1 or all of them
Yep, I agree the roll down process could get very interesting. And even if they only did one, anyone of them could get picked. Love the idea. How simple to implement.

BUT, I just do not see WTC or USAT caring!

.

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Last edited by: h2ofun: Nov 26, 14 13:36
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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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mauricemaher wrote:
Hey Dev,

Like most I think I have way more questions than solutions, most of my questions surround the economics of testing.

IE what are the costs? Can you stream line testing and collection?

Can you collect a lot but only sample a few? (you could relate that to a speed trap in a school zone, maybe not too many get caught but everyone slows down)

Are the costs fixed, IE 1500$ per test no matter what?

I talked to the media guy from CCES (similar to USADA but in Canada) yesterday and he explained some of the logistics and some of the training of the people who conduct both IC and OOC testing.

Basically there are 500 people across Canada who do this, of that about 100 are DCO's or (doping control officers) they get paid a "certain" amount but are considered casual employees, the other 400 are volunteers or "chaperones". Basically at any one venue you will need at least one DCO and 2-4 "chaperones" It appears in Canada at least they still escort you from the finish (if it is IC) to control. I know at a few road races in the states (Sea Otter) they used to just post a list and it was your responsibility to get there, not sure if it still the same.

So basically with WADA now the only people who are allowed to conduct testing are the accredited bodies in the nation hosting the race (CCES in Canada and USADA in the U.S.) For example WTC couldn't just go train people and do it themselves (say like draft marshals in certain cases) WTC is tied to WADA protocol, in that case the athlete has certain rights (and responsibilities) which are meant to be observed world wide, IE in theory testing should be like Mcdonalds….You get the same service, and transparency and testing efficacy every where….in theory.

So for me the questions were around efficiency with testing, say if you have 2 HIM 70.3 one in Victoria one in Calgary. I was wondering if because there is a high likely hood of having all the trained DCO and chaperone people in both those cities (due to various national training centres), they don't have to pay travel etc….the cost or overhead of setting up the testing likely goes down by a lot say maybe compared to more remote venues.

1) So the question was wether or not the costs were fixed IE 1500$ per test no matter what, or wether the travel, labour and testing costs were calculated and then a bill was handed over to WTC or TRI Can or USAT (or USAC etc)

2) The other question was wether or not you could go through steps 1-4 (notifying the athlete, escorting them to control, sampling, then collection and paper work) but skip step 5 (actual lab testing) Basically is this against WADA?

To question 1, if the costs are separated (flexible cost structure….at the end you get a bill) and based on an accounting of labour, travel, lab work etc then maybe it makes more sense to have mare testing (using our Western Canadian example) at Calgary 70.3 and Victoria 70.3, if they are fixed….say at 1500$ per test…. then maybe you focus resources in Whistler.

To question 2, Is "over" collection a WADA violation, I don't think it is but I could be wrong (IE a high sampling rate vs a lower or targeted testing rate)

In the end the media guy was very nice but chose to defer most of my questions to "the manager of procedures and personnel"… I forwarded an e-mail with a bunch of questions, "the media guy" got back to me right away and indicated the above manager would be away until december 1st, sorry….like I say I have more questions than answers.

Having said that even if the costs are fixed, at say 1500$ per test. All it would take say at Whistler or any other IM would be for them to announce that when you sign the paper work for Kona, you will be immediately required to stay put and report to doping control, I don't think they need to test all 50 people, you could just have a budget for 5 tests (or keep it random 10 test at one race 5 at the next etc) and when all 50 people are present, you announce 5 names (perhaps targeted) and allow the rest to leave. The threat of testing before you take your spot…maybe the people who for some "mysterious reason" don't take take a KQ spot and aren't caught but at least they're out of the game for a bit….and perhaps they re-think their values, I also think that there are more than a few athletes out there who aren't "malicious or dirty" per say but might be taking vitamins, supplements etc which would put them in a "positive" situation…..this would also give those athletes time to reflect a bit.

I would love to see the roll down numbers for Kona if they did that ;-)

Maurice

I think the two most important aspects are the analogy of a speed trap in a school zone and whether you can oversample/over collect.

If you can set up the speed trap in the school zone, first thing that will happen is that you'll immediately deter the not so sophisticated doper from even showing up at your race. For example, let's say you have a not that sophisticated doper sitting in London UK today, and he has the option of racing IM Arizona or IM South Africa. Both are equally far, but he knows he can dope to the gills and race Arizona, but he can't totally go nuts for South Africa, because he's not an expert at what the half life is of these various drugs and what thresholds will still be in his system to trigger the "glow light" on race day. Well that guy will go to Arizona and not South Africa..."just in case". He knows there is a speed trap somewhere in the South African "school zone", but its a no speed limit autobahn in Tempe :-)

The second thing is economics of setting up said "speed trap". It costs some money to put the cops at the speed trap and th they can sit around and have donuts and coffee the entire time and everyone will be on good behaviour. I think oversampling at KQ races, national championships etc and you could literally test only 2 guys and girls all year and you still achieve a lot as the cost of "sending your cops with donuts and coffee" to the school zone. I am pretty sure that not every sample gets tested the way things are set up today anyway.

I guess the next thing from all those collected samples is do what Jordano said and target whose you want to spend the lab money on. While it is not out of competition, at least it is something. If the A and B sample tests positive, then the athlete gets a call, Triathlon Canada gets a call, and WTC gets a call to roll the KQ slot to the next guy...at which point they have to do an email rolldown after that fact, but that should be pretty easy to administer.

Bottom line is that the threat CAN go a long way. Busting a few guys from time to time will make the threat more real (to Jordano's point)....heck when I sign the sheet to go to Kona or 70.3 WC (I signed the latter in Oct), I'm even off poppy seed bagels....don't want a Karen Smyers style "heroine positive".
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Re: AGer popped for PED in SA [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Kudos to the tri fed in South Africa to at least have this level of testing.

Yeah, the Sth African anti doping agency model worked really well for Impey.
Last edited by: Watt Matters: Nov 26, 14 19:08
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