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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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I pretty much agree with your view. Monty has some good points ( and first-hand experience) but neverthless, a CEO taking a personal issue with one of his key players public is just a bad move. It seems un-informed and amateur by Messick. In my view, Jacobs response was pretty reasonable and certainly seemed intended as a resolver, not an escalator. Messick escalated, Jacobs shut him down.

As an AG racer who is a long way from the action, this issue confirms my positive opinion of Jacobs and raises a question mark about Messick.




motoguy128 wrote:
I thought PJ had a lot of great points and I applaud him for taking a stand. The comment by IMCEO was uncalled for and ignores the realities of begin a pro.

... But.... Just a bit of a reality check here, and maybe it points towards the simple challenge of being a full time pro where your damned if you do, damned if you don't. But if you are struggling to just finish an IM in one piece under 12 hours in mid-July... what does that say about how likely you'll be competitive or what would chance with just 8 weeks of solid training leading up to it?

I think it sucks that he's struggling and maybe more important it points towards the reality that pros must show up and compete each year to earn a living, even if they are not in good form.

On the flip side, I think the validation is a good idea as it makes it more of a level playing field a little with those that need to race at least 2 IM's the previous 13 months just to qualify. If you lucky and time it well, you can however get 3000+ points prior ot October and be sitting in an even better position than guys racing Kona that still need to validate. So there is that.

However, thanks to the changes, this is the last year you'll be able to get that many points early in the Fall as a pro.

If they want the top pros to race, then they need to offer fewer points at Kona... or no points at Kona and other than past winners, everyone is "in the same boat" so to speak. Even better IMO, would be to make the top 3 at Kona AQ's, and a winner of any IM an AQ.
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [JimMoss] [ In reply to ]
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JimMoss wrote:
Both are idiots for taking their issues to the public forum. But Andrew Messick wins the writing/interview contest hands down - he's a way more convincing communicator than any of the athletes who try to write about their issues. Love him or hate him, let's get one thing straight, he's running a business and although WTC's financials are not open to the public, there's evidence that business is good.

There is, BUT, his (Messick) efforts to engage on social media are poorly considered as the CEO who is responsible to private equity sharehoders.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty, thanks for the thoughtful reply - I was aware that you'd been at the pointy end of triathlon but did not have any clue about your contribution to this aspect. I now appreciate that you made a serious effort to improve the sport- thanks. However, ( and I don't know what PeteJ has done of a similar nature) - this issue feels personal and needed to be dealt with personally in my distant view. Messick threw a bomb, Jacobs defused it. Moreover, this is possibly still playing out. Perhaps they are planning to make some statements while in Kona? Maybe this has become a catalyst to address a wider issue for pro triathletes? It seems they've spoken - perhaps they've made a plan to salvage what they can from a messy episode and thats why Jacobs tweeted #moving on?

Lets see what happens in Hawaii next week.


monty wrote:
So by your logic, if Pete J is failing his peers, who is "make(ing) things better for the next guys to come along"? Names & examples would be helpful.
Further, if these issue are clear to you, what have you done about them? //

Well recently there have been several folks that have spoken up, Macca among them(Jordan would have a better handle on which folks were instrumental in that group) But for a guy that really went out on a limb i would have to say was Olaf Sabachtus. There are a couple more that have been instrumental in trying to form a pro triathlete union, and even got it off the ground. But without the support of the majority of pros, especially the high profile ones, these things have a hard time gaining cruising altitude.


As for me, well I did help form the only pro triathlete union when i was a pro, one that made it 3 years before being crushed by opponents.(mostly outside interests and a couple athletes) I was the treasurer and a founding member, so my peers trusted me with their money. I put on the year ending race that was considered the pro season finale, and where we would have our yearly meeting. (Kauai Loves You Triathlon) When i was a pro, I lobbied all of my peers and did my utmost to speak to our collective power, and our collective worth to RDs and the sport itself. I helped in the world wide ranking system for pros, I was one of the guys on the committee to write the code of conduct, and the prize money distribution paper i submitted was ratified and put in place.


Since that time i have always been in full support of a pro union, but of course i no longer have my platform as a pro to do much about it. I had my time and did what i could at the time. What i can do now is voice my opinion to point out where i think folks need to be looking, and things they should be doing, if they ever hope to duplicate what we did 30 years ago. We were just too far ahead of the pro curve to get enough traction to hold on, but we knew what the right thing to do was. That has not changed.
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [PT] [ In reply to ]
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There's an old saying, "pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered".

I think there is some validity to AM's comments in general- it is his job to protect the brand. The obvious mistake was personifying those comments to a specific athlete. With limited pro slots (albeit by WTC's own choosing) you want to see the slots filled by the most competitive athletes. I get it. Having said that, make the rules what you want and don't complain about someone following the letter of the law (especially when riders get DQ'd for not having the right stamp on their helmet, and then saying that athletes must follow the letter of the law).

He made a mistake. A big one. Ever make a big mistake? I have. And I had to apologize. AM, as of yet, has not apologized. Another mistake.

The bigger issue is that there's been a few years of folks feeling like this evolution of IM to a pure business venture has led to a general opinion that WTC is a bit greedy. When that happens, the consumers, you and I, will give no grace to mistakes. The result is what we have now on many issues. When they make a mistake, we slaughter them, understandably. It remains to be seen if that translates to anything financial. Until it does, I'm afraid that the growing discontent with WTC will continue. I hope it changes on both the sellers and buyers side. This is a great sport, and like great athletes, this sport and it's behavior is a role model.

I hope PJ has the race and race week experience he deserves next weekend. Seems like he has a decent amount of motivation.
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [ In reply to ]
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WTF Pete, what you got against Tom Boonen? One of the best classics riders of the current generation, who also adds some color to the peloton.


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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty...here is the problem.

NO MORE AUTO Qualifiers. Does the Superbowl champion get a bye into next year's playoffs? No. Does the World Series Champ? NO. Doe the Stanley Cup Champ? NO.

I feel for Pete, however, I don't think a 5 year Auto qual window makes any sense. All we are seeing is past champions sand bagging their validation race. The system is stupid. If the current champion can't qualify outright, then he does not deserve to be back next year.

Don't award ANY points for next year's KQ in Kona and in fact, don't award any from Sep 1 to Nov 15 either so that guys can't pile on points while this year's Kona qualifiers are beating themelves to a pulp in Kona. Start everyone fresh at zero for the "new season" on Nov 15th including this year's Kona champ. Let them only count 1 Ironman, but let them count 5 half IM's if you want to lock them into your series. this could be healthier for everyone. If Pete or Macca or Crowie can't be competitive and qualify from Nov 15th to July 31st, then like last year's superbowl champ who got eliminated in the "regular season", then so do they. Having a past champion back who did not get through "regular season means he should not be there in Kona. Whether the champ sandbagged through regular season to save himself for Kona or whether he was injured is somewhat irrelevent. The problems is the qual system make no sense, is killing the pros with inhuman "working conditions" (mind you no one is signing them up for them either) and when top tier pros race slow, it just seems like it was a sandbag job from the outside as a fan. Personally I thought Pete was sandbagging until he came out with his open letter. As a fan it makes no diff if he was sandbagging or if he was injured, because his peers were going faster than him. If I just look at the race time, I am left with the impression that the athlete is sandbagging, which at a professional sport level is akin to "throwing a match". I am not an idiot and realize that the Ironman triathlon is only a few times per year thing and shit happens, but the local press does not get that...they just see a former champion in Zurich that was not competitive, not knowing the story.

If you have a better KQ system, then this does not become an issue. Pete just packs it in for the season because he is injured and has no chance to Kona qual like his peers. Sometimes last year's NFL rushing leader gets injured and can't play and can't fight for that crown this year. That's part of these brutal sports. Eliminating the bye and auto qual as a pro would remove all this banter between WTC and the pros.

As WTC is making more of its races age group only, they don't need to lock in all these pros for a gazillion full IM races per year. Just make them show up at the top tier with the most points...then if they go race at Challenge who really cares, because you know they will show up at 4-5 of your half IM races too if you use the 1+5 suggestion I made above.

Dev
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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No but other private organizational "championship" events have given past winners lifetime auto qualifications. The top event in golf allows past winners to play, and they don't even to validate their spot. They literally can pick up their clubs 2 days a year (1st 2 days of tourney), and if they don't make the cut, they are revered as whatever year past champion on the telecasts. Champions that won the event 30+ years ago and shot +22 over 2 days and are 30 shots behind the leaders are honored and respected for their past accomplishments, watch any golf telecast on the Friday of the Masters when a past Masters champion finishes his 2nd round and isn't going to be playing on the weekend.

So there is precedent in other sports, and more specific, individual sports which is what triathlon is. There are certainly merits for both processes.

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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [Mrs Ogdog] [ In reply to ]
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I was at the hawaii 70.3 this year and messick was doing some of the presentations and he came across as being a bit of a dropkick...
At the event he accepted a position to race at kona 2014... Is he still racing there this year...? Sorry if I've missed my answer it in this thread.
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
No but other private organizational "championship" events have given past winners lifetime auto qualifications. The top event in golf allows past winners to play, and they don't even to validate their spot. They literally can pick up their clubs 2 days a year (1st 2 days of tourney), and if they don't make the cut, they are revered as whatever year past champion on the telecasts. Champions that won the event 30+ years ago and shot +22 over 2 days and are 30 shots behind the leaders are honored and respected for their past accomplishments, watch any golf telecast on the Friday of the Masters when a past Masters champion finishes his 2nd round and isn't going to be playing on the weekend.

So there is precedent in other sports, and more specific, individual sports which is what triathlon is. There are certainly merits for both processes.

I do agree that more respect should be granted. I would like to see past champions greet athletes at the welcome dinner on stage at Kona for example. But, I don't think that a past champion should have a leg up coming to Kona "relatively fresh" while everyone else beat themselves up fighting for KQ points...that's why I used the team sport analogy. Or another one might be past Grand Slam Tennis pros...they don't automatically get a bye to the round of 16 or quarter finals. Everyone is pretty trashed by the time they show up for those rounds.
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [Mrs Ogdog] [ In reply to ]
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Wouldn't it be awesome if all the pros banded around Pete and neutralised the entire race, walked the entire marathon as a hundred+ person bunch, and then let Pete walk across the line first?

They could all then split the entire pro purse between themselves...

One can dream.....
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [Baselbutt] [ In reply to ]
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Very classy and articulate post.
While I value the quality of the race put by Ironman organization, the latest comments from their CEO is showing that they care only about their brand and very little about the athletes who are their customers.
I signed up for Challenge 1/2 Ironman distance next year and they do not seem to have this type of behavior.
Great job Pete!
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Strictly speaking the top event in golf offers a 10 year exemption, another major offers lifetime

With the exception of IAN baker finch, most returning winners have done ok
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [Mrs Ogdog] [ In reply to ]
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This whole union thing is hilarious. I would love to see these guys try to form a union. WTC would kick them off the course so fast. There are 100's of pros that would love to see the top pros walk off and get their chance for the exposure and money.

(fact) I wouldn't even know who Peter Jacobs is if it wasn't for WTC. Let alone all the other Pros.

WTC is a platform that offers the fastest triathletes a place to make a name for themselves and pick up a little cash.

What separates the athletes is their attitude. Its the fans and Age groupers that buy the crap the pros put their names on. Why did I choose fuelbelt vs nathan, because that's what Crowie uses. I admit it I am a lemming, but us lemmings are who really pay the pros. Last year in Kona during the expo Miranda, Chrissie and Crowie were at the expo signing and talking to fans at their sponsors booths. These pros get it, even if they were faking being nice they were selling themselves. My wife has her pictures with Miranda and Chrissie hanging on the wall. She will buy whatever they are selling. She never drank chocolate milk until Miranda said it was good for recovery. Now Peter Jacobs was in his sponsors tent and acted like it was the biggest inconvenience in the world to have to talk to fans. Chrissie, Crowie and Miranda were all in front of the booth hugging and chatting while Pete was barricaded in behind tables and had no interest in any conversation.

Andrew cant talk bad about Miranda because she is an incredible athlete and connects with her customers (the people she is promoting stuff to). Peter on the other hand is a whole different type of personality. He is a great athlete but not much of a salesman.

I have to give a shout out to Andy Potts who didn't race last year but was hanging out enjoying the race. He is another class act. I stood next to him and his family and chatted for about 20 mins waiting for the pros to come in off the bike. I was at Ironman CDA and after the race win he saw me and came up and said didn't we meet in Kona.

You can see why some pros make more money than others. Its all about the attitude.
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [caveAllen] [ In reply to ]
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You make some good points. Sadly, I don't think there is much hope for pro triathletes union either. I agree that the biggest influence the pro triathletes have is to engage with the age groupers, sponsors and in fact the wider community in a positive and constructive way. This may mean that those who are more introvert and shy may miss out. I am not sure how I feel about that. Maybe you have some views on that? However, I note that your post didn't really address the way in which PJ was treated. What is your view on that? Is it ok?
Last edited by: Mrs Ogdog: Oct 4, 14 8:41
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [Mrs Ogdog] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew owes Peter an apology no question about that. I thought that was a no brainer. My point is if the pros are in this for the money they have to sell to the customer and the customer is not WTC.
Last edited by: caveAllen: Oct 4, 14 8:58
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [caveAllen] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for your reply. With regards to WTC not being the customer, I wonder what will happen if WTC's influence over sponsorship decisions increases even further or if, in fact, they become a "one-stop shop" in that all the sponsorship goes via them and the athletes racing their race series face restrictions on individual sponsorship deals? Surely the pros wouldn't be silly enough to go with that...or would they?
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [caveAllen] [ In reply to ]
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While I cannot speak to the validity of your comments...and you do seem to have a lot of first hand experience, this does not take away from the fact that the WTC CEO was way out of line with his public comments. The fact that this much time has gone by without an apology from him is a sign of his character IMO.

Now I'll go on a related tangent....

I have not done a triathlon since the mid 90's. I am purely a spectator that enjoys keeping up with the sport. As a spectator I would love it if any pro that has won the Ironman World Championships, regardless of year, got a indefinite entry without having to qualify so long as they are entering as a pro. I would even extend that to the top 3 for the previous 2 years and then the top person indefinitely. I think that would be better for the pro's and better for the spectators by making it more exciting. Some may say that would make it more challenging four person number 4 for the following year, but that also creates a race within a race. Who's going to win 3rd place!?!?!?

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Last edited by: AJHull: Oct 4, 14 9:58
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [Mrs Ogdog] [ In reply to ]
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WTC only controls 2% of the course venue. The people that want to sell product will get their brand out there and they will want the best of the best showcasing it.
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [AJHull] [ In reply to ]
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As a spectator I would love it if any pro that has won the Ironman World Championships, regardless of year, got a indefinite entry without having to qualify so long as they are entering as a pro.

I'm a little opposite of this. I would love it if former Champs got a free entry for life so long as they went in as an AGer. If they are going to race pro, they should have to go through the same process as the rest of their competition. Kona gets a chance to recognize it's history as well and honor it's pros.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: http://www.petejacobs.com/ [caveAllen] [ In reply to ]
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caveAllen wrote:
I admit it I am a lemming

:-)
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