Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [kalidus] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So a few questions as I have now read most of the lactate.com page but still don't really get some of it.

It all seems to make a sort of sense but let's take the example of a marathon runner. If anaerobic reduces the amount of aerobic capacity that the runner can use why ever train anaerobic? For a 10k runner I get it- it's part anerobic so you need to achieve a good balance but for marathon or longer?
In Reply To:

For the average athelete- is there any way to gather this info with no access to a vo2 test and a lactate test. It reads like one without the other doesn't give enough of a picture.
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [kalidus] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
It just seems too much rest compared to what I perceive as the standard 3/1 model.

I am not a coach so take what I say as not from personal experience. I just sat through 2 days of presentations by Jan Olbrecht at the University of Tennessee. One of the sessions was a 2 hour presentation on periodization.

He presented all sorts of meso cycles in his presentations including a 2/1, 3/2, 4/2, 3/1 and I guess some others. The regeneration phase seemed to be based on the objectives of the meso cycle with some regeneration phases longer while others shorter. Some adaptations take longer than others and there may not be full super compensation in one week. In his book, he devotes 3 chapters to planning and the first chapter can not be indicative of everything on the subject. I am sure the book is not indicative of everything on periodization since it is primarily for swimming but at the clinic he covered the periodization of an open water swimmer even though most coaches there had no open water swimmers.

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [S McGregor] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I would say it depends on the athlete.
If you have a very high aerobic capacity and a low anaerobic capacity (be careful on this definition as in UK anaerobic capacity is measured by oxygen debt or critical power or MAOD, whereas Jan is referring to anaerobic power in the UK or maximal glycolytic rate) you will be able to achieve a very high % of VO2max before threshold occurs and be using a high % anaerobic capacity thus stress is very high and glycogen usage is very high so needs to be used sparingly.
When an amateur athlete has a moderate vo2max and AC (max glycolytic rate) then threshold may occur at a much lower power output and maybe 75% of vo2max. Hence the glycogen use is much lower and this athlete can stand a good amount of threshold training.

I have always found threshold training for me (i.e. 2x20mins etc) just loses me fitness (i prefer polarised), although I have a poor VO2max (around 50ml.kg.min-1) and a moderate AC but I suppose I am nearly 50. Not sure how this fits into the picture of the olbrecht model but am avidly reading to figure it out.
I would like to know where the simulation program is though as he refers to it frequently.

alan
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not sure I would agree that 65% of vo2max is easy.
I have an athlete where that would be around 175W with 275W being the highest power she could reach in a 5min incremental test increasing by 25W per level.
I always get confused between regeneration pace and recovery. Does Jan mean regenerative is around Coggan L2 endurance zone or zone 1 recovery. He also uses extensive pace interchangeably with regenerative paces - very confusing?

alan
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Bullyboy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I saw you comment and asked Jan about this. Here is his reply

Extensive: we use this term to indicate easy speed / low intensity (the opposite of intensive), however we have to be careful since one can also think about long period of time / high volume. Very often high volume and low intensity goes together, but not always and then the mixture of interpretation of extensive can be very misleading. Till a certain intensity and volume within extensive work, regeneration can take place. However if extensive goes together with high volume, regeneration will fail.

Regeneration: refers in set to "re-build" what has been damaged. Of course this happens during the recovery period.

Recovery: refers to the situation where you enables the athlete to eliminate fatigue and where regeneration will happen.

So you see the words are not really interchangeable.

%VO2max refers to an intensity and we can align the following %VO2max:

Recovery: <50%VO2max
Extensive: 50-65%VO2max


If you have any questions on this, I will pass them on. It is probably a good time to get him since many of his athletes are at the Olympics and little testing is going on.

The guy who won the 10K swimming event today at the Olympics is one of the swimmers whose coach Jan advises.

------------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thankyou for your reply Jerry- that was quite helpful. Does regeneration pace depend on onset of blood lactate (i.e. first increase in blood lactate from baseline) or is 50-65% of VO2max set?
Also as I read on in the book - on page 69 it states that to increase anaerobic capacity (i.e. maximal glycolytic rate) takes years to accomplish but yet on page 108 jan states improvement of AC generally occurs as the season progresses and as anaerobic training is emphasized. This is a little confusing as these statements are polar opposites. I wonder if the reduction in glycolytic activity after long extensive workouts is just simply fatigue and lowering of muscle glycogen reserves?
I have a client that is training for hillclimb competitions in the uk which range from 2-5 minutes in length. My training I have prescribed leading into the competition phase is AP intervals starting at 30 seconds @ 2 minute power with 15 secs rest followed by longer intervals (2mins) @ 4-5min power on hills of course some out of the saddle. I felt these qualify as anaerobic power intervals because of the high power and short rests although these will also stimulate aerobic capacity. The rest of the training is regeneration pace up to 70% of VO2max or 1mmol/l above baseline as the ceiling for these longer rides. I wondered if you felt these were on the right lines?

thanks

alan
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Bullyboy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
This is a little confusing as these statements are polar opposites.

What is meant here I believe is that maximal glycolytic capacity is almost impossible to increase and is pretty much genetically determined. Jan says he has seen some athletes increase it a little after years of training.

Now given that, the glycolytic capacity at any moment (VLamax) is less than this maximal glycolytic capacity and is affected by training. Most of the training for endurance athletes tends to reduce the glycolytic capacity. For example, long slow distance and efforts near the threshold reduce glycolytic capacity. Thus, the current glycolytic capacity for a triathlete will usually be much lower than maximum and that is desirable. But for a 100 m swimmer and especially a 50 m swimmer maximum glycolytic capacity is essential. Certainly not the only thing but extremely necessary.

Most of a swimmer's training is aerobic and some aerobic workouts will tend to lower anaerobic capacity. So it is important to include anaerobic capacity work during the training period to ensure it does not get too low and then during the pre-competition period bring it back up without losing aerobic capacity. This return to normal higher levels is what can happen quickly.

As the race distance gets longer, the objective is to fine tune the anaerobic capacity to the aerobic capacity for an optimum performance. The higher the aerobic capacity, the higher the anaerobic capacity can be but it will never be near max for an endurance athlete.

To see how anaerobic capacity can help during an endurance event, google the men's 10k swimming event in Rio and look at the end. It was a sprint to the finish. Jan's swimmer won it. His swimmers were second in the men's 50 free, first, second and fifth in the men's 100 free and first in the men's 10,000 free. I don't know if he will provide their aerobic and glycolytic capacities but they all had to be different and the glycolytic capacity fine tuned for the race and the swimmer's aerobic capacity. Olbrecht does not do the fine tuning, the coaches who he advises do it through their training plans. Here is a good video of the 10K race and the ability to sprint at the end.

http://bit.ly/2bmJHtv

Your other points. Loss of glycogen reserves will affect the glycolytic system but is easily corrected over a day or so so I would look to a change in something else that is causing the lower glycolytic capacity. Because there is little interest in this concept in the exercise physiology literature, there is little discussion of it. Certain enzymes I believe are affected. But VO2 max is intensively researched and a lot is known about it. The reason I believe is that VO2 max is extremely important for health and performance and easy to measure while glycolytic activity is at best very difficult to measure. That is why blood lactate measures have been used.

Pretty soon Sebastian Weber will publish for all, a software program based on the ideas of Alois Mader that estimates VLAmax from lactate testing. We will see how many adopt this testing approach. See

http://bit.ly/26EgiRi and

http://bit.ly/29dGfly

Sebastian will be in San Francisco next week and presenting his methodology to some cycling coaches

http://www.lactate.com/lactate_cycling.html

I am not a good person to judge the efficacy of specific training prescriptions.

Hope this helps. I will forward your question and my answer to Jan to get his thoughts if he has time to answer.


-------------------------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Last edited by: Jerryc: Aug 20, 16 13:19
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hi Jerry,

Thanks for your answer - It makes more sense now. I have seen an article from Hauser that uses Maders work to calculate MLSS so am a little familiar with maders work (some very complex maths here). Will the software program be free or at a cost premium?
I wish I could be in frisco for that presentation - is it likely to be on utube afterwards?

cheers

alan
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hi JerryC,

Do you have a working email address for Sebastian as the one on his website returns notification failures.
Do you know whether he has released his software yet?

thanks

alan
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Bullyboy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Do you have a working email address for Sebastian as the one on his website returns notification failures.
Quote:

I have a couple email addresses but have not heard from him in about 2 weeks. He was in San Francisco and was headed back to Germany. He was working hard with people to get the software running. I will get back to you when I hear from him.

--------------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Bullyboy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sebastian said to use

sebastian at true-performance dot com

Make the necessary adjustments to make it a valid email address. He said there were some problems with the website email but should be corrected. If not let me know.

He sent a sample output of the software which I will put up on our website as soon as he says it is ok. They are working to get it ready by the end of the month.

He is in the middle of the Vuelta now so it may be a couple weeks before he finishes it and gets the printout right.

--------------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Last edited by: Jerryc: Sep 8, 16 11:58
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [kalidus] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It does seem a little excessive to do a 3/2 split. You would have to train very hard over the 3 weeks and also it depends on the regeneration pace (50, 60 or even 70% of VO2max?). What do you think?

alan
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hi Jerry - registered on the site for the eval - thanks for that.
Do you have the contents of the presentation sebastian gave on utube or other media?

thanks
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Bullyboy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
Do you have the contents of the presentation sebastian gave on utube or other media?

He sent me something but asked that I not to do anything with it yet because the formatting was not right. Hopefully, it will be soon.


-----------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hi Jerry,

Could you let me know when you release it.

thanks

alan
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jerry - do you have the presentation available yet. Any idea when sebastian is releasing his software. I got the impression it was in september.

cheers

alan
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Bullyboy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The software is apparently working but not web ready. He is using it with individual athletes and teams but needs some legal and security protections before it can be put on the web.

I understand this. We were once going to publish a book on lactate testing and had enough articles by high level sports scientists/coaches to make a decent book but the legal considerations made it a nightmare so we never published it.

I will let you know when I know anything further.

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Quote Reply
Re: Jan Olbrecht's The Science of Winning [Jerryc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks Jerry,

Just a quick one - do you access to the presentation notes he did a few weeks ago with yourself?
I would be much appreciated if you could publish it online.

thanks

alan
Quote Reply

Prev Next