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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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No no not at all. I realize that just because somebody is slower doesn't mean they're not working as hard or being as aggressive on the bike, etc. I understand that some are comfortable enough with just laying off the gas a bit, such as when athletes choose not to wear a wetsuit when it's just below the cutoff because it's still too warm, or they choose to ride a road bike on a "hilly" course where a TT bike would still be faster, etc...but I am not in favor of having rules that effectively necessitate that. Again, I understand that modified TT setups can work in a group, but it's just not something I think is the best option because it almost requires a mellowing-out of racing tactics and strategy.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [iank] [ In reply to ]
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iank wrote:
Dave, I was giving you exactly what you wanted. I outlined why, provided ITU doesn't make any changes to equipment for DL racing, as their PR team has said, that setup wouldn't be allowed. I acknowledge that yes, there's still some unknown, and that the purpose of this thread was to be a discussion on what the rules ought to be, which is where I voiced my opinion on why a modified TT setup is not ideal. I will give you that yes, you can absolutely ride a TT bike in a group reasonably safely, even without moving the bars back so they don't extend past the brake levers, and I said so in my post. I will also say that it's far from optimal, as you don't have nearly the control of your bike riding on bullhorns than you do in drops or even hoods.
Again, I will concede that you can absolutely ride this setup in a group and do so safely, but you cannot ride as safely with the same level of aggression that you can on a road bike. You can't corner as hard, moving up through a group is more dangerous, and reaction times can be slower. I say this from my own personal experience, having done the exact same group ride on my TT bike a few times versus my road bike that I do it on 90% of the time. So yes, you can ride your TT bike in a group, but the way to do so safely means you have to ride a bit more timid. To me, if that's your solution for a race, that you should just have to ride less aggressive, that's not very reasonable. It's a race, as in, you should be going hard, or at least you shouldn't have equipment rules that cause mental reservations about going hard.
I will happily admit, you're right, I won't do a race where it's an equipment free-for-all with folks allowed to ride in groups, because to me, that is not a risk I am willing to take. I don't think that makes me any more narrow-minded than your "I won't race if it's a multi loop crit format" that you've repeatedly said.

I totally agree with you. I guess one difference is I see these threads as might, could be, who knows, vs ought.

Until they see the parameters of the course, I just do not see how we get to ought. Now, IMO, if the course is the same as a elite course, meaning many loops, hard hurts, etc., then we are on the same page, and I would not be racing. If the course is what they have in mexico, let alone the standard AG US course, then am not sure. But until I see these details, just going to wait and see.

Yep, you got me on the I wont race a crit format. :o( I do slip some times.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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More AG draft legal will be interesting, but it could be a HUGE step backward if it means that more of the world's athletes will be riding and racing under foolish and fundamentally harmful UCI rules. Having raced in a few draft legal AG triathlons, I think (both as a racer and manufacturer) that:

- AG draft legal racing should absolutely allow shortie aerobars. Even aerobars up to 2.5 cm longer than shortie aerobars (if the bars are connected by a bridge there would be zero additional hazard).

- Deep wheels should be allowed, up to 10 cm in rim depth.

- Yes, one should be allowed to ride a MTB. They're safe enough, they're kinda slow and both brakes are within instant reach. And you should be allowed to race CX, MCX, and/or gravel bikes too.

- Yes, we absolutely should toss the foolish 1.3.073 rules, the draft legal position rules should be the same reasonable ones as allowed by current USAT rules. And we should toss any requirement for riders to have UCI road compliant bikes, bike rules (except handlebar rules) should be the same ones as currently used by the USAT.

These steps are very important as they will have very significant environmental implications, and they will have HUGE grassroots participation implications (for example, forcing beginners or riders in less wealthy countries to choose between using limited funds to buy new bikes or not being able to participate).

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [iank] [ In reply to ]
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iank wrote:
No no not at all. I realize that just because somebody is slower doesn't mean they're not working as hard or being as aggressive on the bike, etc. I understand that some are comfortable enough with just laying off the gas a bit, such as when athletes choose not to wear a wetsuit when it's just below the cutoff because it's still too warm, or they choose to ride a road bike on a "hilly" course where a TT bike would still be faster, etc...but I am not in favor of having rules that effectively necessitate that. Again, I understand that modified TT setups can work in a group, but it's just not something I think is the best option because it almost requires a mellowing-out of racing tactics and strategy.

ah! gotcha. this is the way it has always been here so it is only when WTC comes to town that things change. some races are doing not drafting also but to toot my own horn, even though i'm an old lady (54) i still came in 2nd overall (female) in a race earlier this year so i think i can be agressive. the 1st place was an 18yo. :)

again, totally get having change bestowed on you-we had that this year when they imposed the imaginary line rule but i find that i personally can be agressive enough to get 2nd overall, albeit in a country where the sport is new and in a state where the oldest triathlon is 4 years old (unless Xel-Ha has been going longer, but maybe only 5 years?). obviously ymmv.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Sweeney] [ In reply to ]
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Sweeney wrote:
If ''you race'' is you wave or age group, I'd say draft whoever you want. If the second place guy in AG40-45 doesn't catch the passing wave, I say tell him to swim faster. You have to make the rules enforceable.
I am really late to this thread so maybe someone already pointed out the flaw in the statement above, but for the sake of argument...
What if a couple of hard-chargers in the 40-45AG realize they are fast enough on the swim and bike to carry a good lead onto the run if they work together. They execute a perfect swim and work together on the bike to pull away from the rest of the field. Then the 30-35 male peleton passes the 40-45 chase group and the older/slower guys jump on the back and get pulled back to the front two guys. They executed a good plan perfectly, but people who aren't in their race ruined it for them. I guess they should swim faster too?

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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Tulkas wrote:
Sweeney wrote:
If ''you race'' is you wave or age group, I'd say draft whoever you want. If the second place guy in AG40-45 doesn't catch the passing wave, I say tell him to swim faster. You have to make the rules enforceable.

I am really late to this thread so maybe someone already pointed out the flaw in the statement above, but for the sake of argument...
What if a couple of hard-chargers in the 40-45AG realize they are fast enough on the swim and bike to carry a good lead onto the run if they work together. They execute a perfect swim and work together on the bike to pull away from the rest of the field. Then the 30-35 male peleton passes the 40-45 chase group and the older/slower guys jump on the back and get pulled back to the front two guys. They executed a good plan perfectly, but people who aren't in their race ruined it for them. I guess they should swim faster too?

Yep

It might be a different twist. For folks who like it , do it, if not, skip it. Just like there are so many different races of parts of swim and or bike and or run. Do the combos you like, and ignore the ones you do not like Easy.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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It's why I worry AG DL is going to be sorta a "hybrid". Sorta like the race you have done in Cali. Race the 3 laps and if you get to draft on faster group 1 lap ahead so be it. So I think the "fairness" is going to have to be accepted as it is what it is.

There is a DL race here in NC that I'm kinda helping with race prep logistics RD has already said he is thinking of not doing lap out rule for AGers. But this will be 1 wave race, 75 field limit. He doesn't want to "scare" athletes who want to try it who may not have the swim ability to not get lapped out.

Kinda dumb to have AGers compete in a race that they can't finish because of an elite style of racing speed laps them out. This isn't soft cutoffs like at IM events,

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
It's why I worry AG DL is going to be sorta a "hybrid". Sorta like the race you have done in Cali. Race the 3 laps and if you get to draft on faster group 1 lap ahead so be it. So I think the "fairness" is going to have to be accepted as it is what it is.

There is a DL race here in NC that I'm kinda helping with race prep logistics RD has already said he is thinking of not doing lap out rule for AGers. But this will be 1 wave race, 75 field limit. He doesn't want to "scare" athletes who want to try it who may not have the swim ability to not get lapped out.

Kinda dumb to have AGers compete in a race that they can't finish because of an elite style of racing speed laps them out. This isn't soft cutoffs like at IM events,

Since the ITU has not stated what the rules, etc are, I have nothing to worry about, yet. I have a hard time believing they are going to just toss all the Sprint folks, and make a much smaller field with full DL rules
as you suggest. But you might be right, but none of us know yet.

That RD is right on the money. They have to have enough customers. Have to make a profit.

Now if the ST poll had said like 80% said no to draft races, I would be saying I guess I am out to lunch. But since it is not close to that, it might be possible the majority want to just get rid of the drafting rules
we have today, and everything else might be okay, including full TT bikes. That is how the 300 person race I have done works and has had no issues. Could they go larger and be safe? No idea.

I have yet to see anyone gave data on a race, as an example that was the DL I show above that had terrible accidents and then eliminated that format. Can you or anyone else? Just trying to get facts on what folks have done
and if one really was unsafe, lets talk about it with facts, not what might have happened.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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How many races have TT bikes and drafting? The only event in US sounds like the Cali race you do and sounds like Mexican races are DL + TT bikes. Not a very large sample size is it?

I'm sure there are other races in world that are DL + TT but not many.

The sport of cycling doest allow aero bar bikes in mass starts.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
How many races have TT bikes and drafting? The only event in US sounds like the Cali race you do and sounds like Mexican races are DL + TT bikes. Not a very large sample size is it?

I'm sure there are other races in world that are DL + TT but not many.

The sport of cycling doest allow aero bar bikes in mass starts.

So, how can so many then say without any facts, example, etc. that they KNOW all the negative issues? We do have example of races, real races, that have not had issues, right? Yes we can talk around them,
but these are facts, and they are having no issues. One does not care about the bike type. The others was have some data, but not 100%.

Your sport of cycling does not allow aero bars. The new ITU DL AG sport we still have no idea. It is NOT your sport, it is a NEW sport. What the rules are will be communicated from ITU and USAT when they know.
This is why it seems they should have waited for any announcement, IMO, until they had more data. Then we would not have wasted pages and pages of opinions on things we have no idea. Once we have the facts,
then we can say but, .....

Again, this is a triathlon proposal, NOT a cycling proposal. There are cycling rules. There are Elite DL triathlon rules. What we have yet to see is the proposed ITU DL AG triathlon rules.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave,

Good on you, keep up the good fight for pushing TT bikes in 3k DL events. I hope they get it so you can do the events. You don't think that's an safety issue and are using an absolutely incredible small sample size to "prove" your point. I'll just agree to disagree, nothing more needs to be said.

We get where you stand, people get where I stand. Your all about having it any which way, and if they decide DL+ TT bikes, fair enough. I'll hope/pray that never is the case because of safety issues that I certainly see can happen.

Good day sir. No more from me.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
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BDoughtie wrote:
Dave,

Good on you, keep up the good fight for pushing TT bikes in 3k DL events. I hope they get it so you can do the events. You don't think that's an safety issue and are using an absolutely incredible small sample size to "prove" your point. I'll just agree to disagree, nothing more needs to be said.

We get where you stand, people get where I stand. Your all about having it any which way, and if they decide DL+ TT bikes, fair enough. I'll hope/pray that never is the case because of safety issues that I certainly see can happen.

Good day sir. No more from me.

I am NOT pushing anything. I do agree, depending on the format, maybe you and I do agree there might be safety issues. But until they tell us what they are going to do, I am assuming they are smart folks
and would not propose something that is unsafe. Why do you keep trying to say I know what is right, or how it should be, etc? I no way have enough experience to say anything. But it just seems a good starting place
is to see what data we have as to what has happened so far, and what have they been doing. Just data, no conclusions.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
How many races have TT bikes and drafting? The only event in US sounds like the Cali race you do and sounds like Mexican races are DL + TT bikes. Not a very large sample size is it?

I'm sure there are other races in world that are DL + TT but not many.

The sport of cycling doest allow aero bar bikes in mass starts.


So, how can so many then say without any facts, example, etc. that they KNOW all the negative issues? We do have example of races, real races, that have not had issues, right? Yes we can talk around them,
but these are facts, and they are having no issues. One does not care about the bike type. The others was have some data, but not 100%.

Your sport of cycling does not allow aero bars. The new ITU DL AG sport we still have no idea. It is NOT your sport, it is a NEW sport. What the rules are will be communicated from ITU and USAT when they know.
This is why it seems they should have waited for any announcement, IMO, until they had more data. Then we would not have wasted pages and pages of opinions on things we have no idea. Once we have the facts,
then we can say but, .....

Again, this is a triathlon proposal, NOT a cycling proposal. There are cycling rules. There are Elite DL triathlon rules. What we have yet to see is the proposed ITU DL AG triathlon rules.

.


As has been made clear to you about 600 times...there is no such thing as "elite DL rules" for ITU. There are DL rules and non-draft rules. Statements from the ITU have explicitly clarified that at this moment, they do not intend to modify equipment rules for DL races for age groupers, meaning that AG DL races will be run by the existing ITU DL rules.
You're right. This isn't a cycling proposal, but if you're an engineer as you say you are and why we should feel bad for your family, I would think you'd be familiar with the idea of best practices. We do have a chance here to design something that is not completely brand-new in that it bears similarities to existing events, most notably mass-start amateur cycling events. Those events have been around for a LOOOOONG time, so their practices may not be the best theoretical possibility, but they are certainly a standard worth examining. We do not have to adopt every single facet of mass-start cycling, as not all of it makes sense, but it behooves us to look at existing, similar rule sets as a model, particularly when we start to talk about insuring these events.
I will concede to you that there's not a whole lot of data on people riding in large groups on TT bikes. The reason for that is because it doesn't happen much. I would wager that there is not a lot of data about the dangers of driving on the opposite side of the road, either. Sure, there are examples of people who have done it without issue, but that does not make it a safe or best practice.

Additionally, if we can't talk about what ought to be until we "know more specifics," then what are you doing here? That's pretty much the purpose of this thread, so if you don't want to talk about that, and you just continue to shoot down anybody who tries to discuss what those rules ought to be by calling them narrow-minded and a bully (which is narrow-minded, bullying behavior itself), I sincerely wonder what purpose you're trying to accomplish.

IG: idking90
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [iank] [ In reply to ]
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You might feel this thread is "ought" to be. I feel this thread is talking about what we know or do not know. What data from existing races exist. What issues might come up from different
possibilities.

So, I am only aware of one set of rules of the ITU, and that is for DL racing which I assume you call those folks elites?

so if you can point me to a set of rules on the ITU website that says ITU AG DL rules, that I guess we will all be on the same page.

.

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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [iank] [ In reply to ]
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I would think you'd be familiar with the idea of best practices.


Sums it up perfectly, and this statement is why I think DL races with TT will be a no-no. Adding to the fact that currently ITU already has rules against TT bikes in DL format. So the ITU has to make NEW rules to allow it. So the current rules are as follows for DL events:

No TT bikes. ETA: Let's not forget that the ITU CLARIFIED and ACKNOWLEDGED NO TT BIKES to Dan this week. Why some seem to want to gloss over that is beyond me, except to just argue to argue to this point. Which I apologize to the site for getting drawn in to the degree that I've allowed myself. H20, I get it, you *think* the rules haven't been clarified, but they have. You just don't want to acknowledge that. And that's fine, but your stick is getting old now. It's been shown the ITU rulebook and how it pertains to either non-draft or DL. There are no "AG" rules, and their are no "elite" rules. It's just DL or non-draft. How/why you fail to comprehend that, no one will know, other than you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

That's the rules, those rules can be changed but the fact of the matter is, until the changes are made, their are ZERO TT bikes going to be allowed. So what we need to do is accept that, more than wonder/hope/think/assume TT bikes will be allowed that some people want to do.


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Last edited by: BDoughtie: Jul 26, 14 11:17
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Re: Draft Legal Age Group tri: official thread on the rules [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going to guess you never read the first post:
Quote:
lots more to write about this but my first shot is up on the home page.

we oughta get in front of this and start deciding on the rules. for example:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?
2. should you be able to have any clip ons at all?
3. how deep should wheels be allowed to be?
4. are you obliged to retire if you're lapped?
5. should RDs be only allowed to have so many laps per race?
6. should there be any prerequisites to entering?
7. can you ride an MTB bike?
8. should we shit-can 1.3.073 entirely for draft legal?

plus other stuff i haven't yet considered, but that a number of you will.


To me, that's awfully clear that this was intended to be a discussion of what the rules should be, and what the majority of the people here have been discussing, except for you. Please, if you re-read this post and come up with a major theme of it out of it other than "what should we make the rules for Age Group Draft Legal races," I am VERY curious what your thought process is there. I cannot, for the life of me, backwards engineer a thought process to draw any other conclusion about the purpose of that post and by extension, this thread.
Additionally, the only rules specific to Elites for ITU are uniform requirements. Otherwise, there is one set of Competition Rules. In case you can't find them:
www.triathlon.org/uploads/docs/itusport_competition-rules_19022014v2-highlighted.pdf
There are sections on bicycle conduct for both draft-legal and draft-illegal events, but with no mention of who is racing. The equipment rules reference UCI Road Race, UCI Time Trial, and UCI MTB rules for draft-legal, draft-illegal, and winter/cross triathlon, respectively. The only mentions whatsoever of AG-specific rules in the entire set of competition rules are penalty assessment, wetsuit temperatures, the table discussing what races are draft-legal/draft-illegal (which obviously WILL have to change), and whether you have to wear shoes in winter triathlon.

IG: idking90
Last edited by: iank: Jul 26, 14 11:21
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