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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
compare MAO and EN

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ironmom5

Nov 2, 09 13:13

Post #1 of 34 (1102 views)

compare MAO and EN	Can't Post

I am 45 years old and have completed 5IM and numerous half IM. I've used MAO online on and off for the past 6 years and have had good results in all of my IM and 1/2IM.
I have some friends using EN for the first time this year. Their results have been good but they are fairly new to the sport.
The training methods are completely different. EN focuses on power and MAO more traditional training.
Does anyone have any personal experience with the two programs? Can you compare and contrast the programs?
I am doing IMCDA in 2010 and may consider changing coaching programs. I do not have a power meter at this time and need to know if the EN coaching is good
enough to warrent spending the money on coaching and a PT.

tyson

Nov 2, 09 13:29

Post #2 of 34 (1089 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [ironmom5] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I've mentioned my story several times in these types of threads.

Basically, two years of MAO - 5:35 HIMs for two years. I did have a good first IM at Arizona, though. But, man, training 15-20 hours a week for that long can wear you down pretty fast.

In my first full season using EN's HIM plans, I stagnated at 5:30 for a bit and then took 20 minutes off my PR at my A race (Vineman 70.3). Highly, highly recommended.

I'm currently a full-fledged member and after 8 weeks on the out season plan, I took a minute-ish off my 5k run PR and went under 20 minutes for the first time, ever.

I'm a happy EN camper, you could say. It's nice to finally start getting faster while reducing the number of hours I train significantly. I love being able to let loose with intervals in all my runs and rides. Spending hours upon hours in zone 1 under the MAO plan was, at times, torture. Ever been chicked by a hobo on a broken mountain bike with sandals? Yeah.

Edit: Also, you don't *need* a power meter. I don't and I seem to have improved just nicely without. Although as a data junkie, I kind of want one.

(This post was edited by tyson on Nov 2, 09 13:30)

Lar Dog

Nov 2, 09 13:47

Post #3 of 34 (1047 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [ironmom5] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I suggest M2...

http://triathloncoach.com/
Lar Dog

Trimeon

Nov 2, 09 13:54

Post #4 of 34 (1027 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [ironmom5] [In reply to]	Can't Post

the big question which would be the decider is do you handle and do better with a) high volume or b) less vol with more intesity?

b) is great if only have so much free time but in the long run body will get tired faster, training faster more. Read Lore of Running, by Noakes, he gave examples of runners using the different approaches and short and hard , their careers seems to match that too.

Mark Allen was a great example in the book as well, his approach is why he won so much for so many years, he wasnt beating his body up year round.

If you are on a limited time, I would rec. checking out Ironguides.net, they are great for AGers. Also read and more important pay attention to your body and what it prefers!

Good luck in your quest!

SLCTri

Nov 2, 09 13:59

Post #5 of 34 (1013 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [ironmom5] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I would preface this by saying that response to training is highly individualistic and what works for one may or may not work for another.

MAO HIM on a flat easy course 5:01

EN HIM at Vineman 70.3 4:43 (including a flat that cost me ~8 min)

Similar training hours, I responded much better to the higher intensity of the EN program. However the way the EN program is structured, I think it would be much less effective if you did not have a powermeter for all your bike workouts.

Lar Dog

Nov 2, 09 14:11

Post #6 of 34 (993 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [Trimeon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

For purposes of clarification...what I know about Mark Allen, he definetly did NOT follow the training principles he now recommends when he was winning his 6 Ironman titles.
Lar Dog

BreakIM

Nov 2, 09 15:49

Post #7 of 34 (930 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [tyson] [In reply to]	Can't Post

This combo is probably a good strategy overall. A couple of LSD with (MAO) followed by a bout of speed (EN). The other way might not yield the same results.

tsmagnum

Nov 3, 09 12:18

Post #8 of 34 (854 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [ironmom5] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Stats are always good to compare.

I saw MAO had like 35 or 40 athletes qualify for Kona and 4 agers made the podium.

EN I think had less than 15 and I don't think they had any podium, but I could be wrong (maybe someone could update if they no for sure)

FastandFun

Nov 3, 09 12:43

Post #9 of 34 (822 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [ironmom5] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

FYI:
- the best coaches don't work for big coaching companies.
- you don't need a power meter
- you don't need a HR monitor
---------------------------
Hello World.

Yknot

Nov 3, 09 13:12

Post #10 of 34 (788 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [tsmagnum] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I am not sure the stats but you would probably want to look at percentage rather than raw numbers. If MAO had 40 qualify out of 400 athletes while EN had 12 out of 120 then I would say both programs are equally effective.

MarkyV

Nov 3, 09 13:16

Post #11 of 34 (780 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [ironmom5] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

EN focuses on power and MAO more traditional training.
.

gamebofh

Nov 3, 09 13:19

Post #12 of 34 (777 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [MarkyV] [In reply to]	Can't Post

My understanding from reading here is that one of those involves applying
electricity to your genitals, and the other requires hard work.

I could have misunderstood though.

-Jot

ironmom5

Nov 3, 09 13:20

Post #13 of 34 (773 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [MarkyV] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I appreciate everyone's input.

IRONwolf

Nov 3, 09 13:24

Post #14 of 34 (763 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [ironmom5] [In reply to]	Can't Post

If you like going balls out and having some free time afterwords, EN is pretty good. If you have an extra 20 hours per week and dread interval sessions, then MAO is probably a better option. You could do the UN "out season" plan then go to MAO after that and see how that works out.

As it turns out, what you have is less important than what you do with it...
-Bernd Heinrich, why we run

MarkyV

Nov 3, 09 13:49

Post #15 of 34 (721 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [gamebofh] [In reply to]	Can't Post

charris

Nov 3, 09 14:04

Post #16 of 34 (694 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [Lar Dog] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Actually, apparently it was precisely when he began using his new approach that he started having that remarkable success. Here's the entire article if you want to read it (posted by someone who needs to spend more time training and less time transcribing):

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=2183162

I've seen remarkable (well, for me) run gains just by primarily focusing on a Mark Allen/Maffetone/Hadd high volume/low intensity style run program (and I know that's opening a can of worms).

When it came time to evaluate HIM/IM training plans, I wanted to try MAO style, but due to real life constraints I needed to trade some volume for intensity. Otherwise I would have found myself with a lot more time for volume - but with one less wife and job.

So I did my research and decided to go with EN. I liked what I had read of their stuff over the years, and so far I really like what I've seen inside - not just the two coaches/training plans/supporting resources, but all of the other smart/motivated athletes there.

I'll let you know the results next year...

Andre Bennatan

Nov 3, 09 14:15

Post #17 of 34 (678 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [ironmom5] [In reply to]	Can't Post

First, please note that we are suppliers of MAO.

Then, I must tell you I have noticed a very strong loyalty among MAO's athletes. They seem to come back, year after year and even for the most accomplished ones.

Also, I would like to go against the perception that their plans are based upon huge volume at low intensities. I have this example in mind where in Kona, Roger W. came in 5th in the M 50-54, after riding 5:18 and crossing the line in 10:01: you just cannot do that kind of perfomance on long and slow workouts.

Hope this helps,

Kiwami US
http://www.kiwamitri.com
contact@kiwamitri.com

SLCTri

Nov 3, 09 14:54

Post #18 of 34 (641 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [FastandFun] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

FYI:
- the best coaches don't work for big coaching companies.
- you don't need a power meter
- you don't need a HR monitor

You also don't need to train at all, plenty of people just wake up that morning and say 'I am going to do an Ironman today!'

logella

Nov 3, 09 15:37

Post #19 of 34 (608 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [Andre Bennatan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ding, ding, ding! Winner winner chicken dinner!

I'm a satisfied MAO customer. Just finished up my second season and will be using MAO again next year for my next IM. It is definitely not all high volume, low intensity. Sure, 20 weeks out from your goal race it is. However, somewhere around week 12 or so the speed sessions start showing up in the plan (one per week per discipline).

DSICLAIMER: I have not qualified for Kona nor do I ever expect to short of a miracle regardless of what training plan I'm using.

------------------------------
"Unless you have a ... GF who might put out that night and that night only ... skip it and race." - AndyPants 3-15-2007

FastandFun

Nov 3, 09 15:51

Post #20 of 34 (589 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [SLCTri] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

You also don't need to train at all, plenty of people just wake up that morning and say 'I am going to do an Ironman today!'

Sure.. why not.

My point being... there's an increasing number of coaches out there pressuring athletes to buy all these bullshit measuring devices because.. well.. data is good right?

A good coach knows how to get results from an athlete without these.
---------------------------
Hello World.

Diana

Nov 3, 09 16:09

Post #21 of 34 (576 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [ironmom5] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Ironmom5,
I'm one of those loyal MAO athletes, and have used their program for 2 years. As you know (since you have been using MAO), MAO is not by any means an exclusively LSD program. I was training about 18-20 hrs/week in my peak training for Hawaii this year (but I did miss 1-2 workouts/wk). That was enough to get me on the podium, even with a mid-season shoulder separation. The thing with MAO is once you have developed the monster aerobic engine that it gives you, none of the workouts are "easy" anymore. The speed sessions can be brutal and for me, they seemed to be placed just right in the program so that you benefit most on race day, but don't burn out or get injured before race day. I often replace bike speed sessions with bike races, as it's pretty much impossible for me to achieve the HR's I'm supposed to achieve in those sessions without racing. IMH this year was my 13th IM, and I've never felt as strong in the latter half of races as I do using the MAO program. I also don't get GI problems in the race anymore and I believe it is because my HR is 5-8 bpm lower on average for a similar power output so I don't compromise blood supply to my gut (which was a given for me in every IM pre-MAO).

This is only my personal experience. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there that may respond better to a different type of training, but MAO seems to work wonderfully for me. I also think you can get away with a high intensity/low volume program if you have a great aerobic base to start with. After 7 years of consistent daily training, I did that one year and it worked. I tried it a 2nd year in a row and it most definitely didn't work.

Just my two cents,
Diana Hassel

P.S. On a separate note, I worry about the effects of repeated high intensity efforts year after year on the heart (only because I know of many elite athletes with heart issues...granted this is not a peer reviewed statement so take it with a grain of salt : ).

sailnfast

Nov 3, 09 16:25

Post #22 of 34 (561 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [Diana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

P.S. On a separate note, I worry about the effects of repeated high intensity efforts year after year on the heart (only because I know of many elite athletes with heart issues...granted this is not a peer reviewed statement so take it with a grain of salt : ).

Diana, is there a reason to be more worried about the effects of high intensity efforts vs. LSD efforts year after year? If so, I'd love to see the research that supports this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
�Time is limited, so I better wake up every morning fresh and know that I have just one chance to live this particular day right, and to string my days together into a life of action, and purpose.� --Lance Armstrong

Off season = lots of riding!

Emzee

Nov 3, 09 16:30

Post #23 of 34 (550 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [ironmom5] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Can't speak for EN, but after 6 months on MAO I took 57 minutes off my already Kona-qualifying IM time and finished first amateur at IMLP. How's that for an endorsement?

chadholderbaum

Nov 3, 09 16:31

Post #24 of 34 (550 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [Diana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ironmom5 -

I've been a MAO athlete the previous year and had such great results that I'm definitely doing the program again next year. I agree with Diana that MAO is not exclusively a LSD program...I can personally say that because I just got back from a hard workout at the track. :) MAO helped coach me to a sub 10 hour IM PR including a podium finish at Ironman Lake Placid. Their plan is proven plain and simple. I'll also be racing in Clearwater next weekend thanks to the help of Luis and Mark. Anytime I need advice Luis and Mark are there for me right away and even by email, my questions are answered right away 99% of the time.

So my vote is MAO!

Chad

SLCTri

Nov 3, 09 17:14

Post #25 of 34 (515 views)

Re: compare MAO and EN [FastandFun] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

You also don't need to train at all, plenty of people just wake up that morning and say 'I am going to do an Ironman today!'

I don't know, IMHO a good coach will educate an athlete how the 'bullshit' devices can help them train more effectively. Any training program can yield X results if followed consistently, these devices simply help structure and implement a training program that can make X better.

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