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cadence
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Slowman
Oct 10, 09 14:48
Post #1 of 523 (5764 views)
cadence
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chrissie may win this race, she's way ahead, there's about 12mi left to go in the ride as i'm writing this. but i hope you guys see the difference between her cadence and the cadences of most of the men. and, she's spending a lot of time riding with her hands on the pursuits now. she looks pretty cooked to me, and i think cadence is a part of the problem.
she may win, she may set a record, i don't know what'll happen from here. but, sitting up on the bike, on the flat, for extended stretches, is not anything a man could do and still win this race.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
jackmott
Oct 10, 09 14:50
Post #2 of 523 (5758 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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why do you think cadence is the problem, given that it has been a constant and she has never lost?
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psycholist
Oct 10, 09 14:50
Post #3 of 523 (5757 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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Yep. She looks pretty cooked to me. The nice thing that a high cadence does is it saves the legs for later use.
psycholist
Oct 10, 09 14:55
Post #4 of 523 (5750 views)
Re: cadence [jackmott]
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uh ... just saw that last shot. All I can say is ... nevermind. ;-)
bpq
Oct 10, 09 14:55
Post #5 of 523 (5745 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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her upper body/head is bobbing all over the place. not a good sign.
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Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit - A wise man does not urinate against the wind.
littlefoot
Oct 10, 09 14:57
Post #6 of 523 (5739 views)
Re: cadence [psycholist]
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I agree with slowman, but she seems better now, you think she just didn't down shift when she should have up those little climbs?
Slowman
Oct 10, 09 15:05
Post #7 of 523 (5726 views)
Re: cadence [jackmott]
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sometimes you win in spite of your bad habits, because you're just that talented. the men's field has always, however, been much tighter, you can get away with less, because there are a lot more around you in your competitive set. you can't get away with bad habits and survive when you have a half-dozen in your competitive set all around you.
she has moments of looking brilliant on the bike, riding on the nose, in the aero position, about abouit 5 beats higher cadence. then she has moments where she looks cooked. again, she will probably win, but, she has improvement in front of her. every other person who wins this race rides a steady cadence of 84.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Mito Chondria
Oct 10, 09 15:31
Post #8 of 523 (5688 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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I think alot has to do with how she and some of the men (e.g. Ronnie Schildknecht) attacked the early miles in the race.
Did she let the men influence her intensity early on in the ride?
“The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.” -Michelangelo
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Mr. Tibbs
Oct 10, 09 15:47
Post #9 of 523 (5663 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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So winning doesn't prove anything?
" If it's stupid, and it works, it's not stupid. " PocketKings
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jackmott
Oct 10, 09 16:06
Post #10 of 523 (5639 views)
Re: cadence [Mr. Tibbs]
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So winning doesn't prove anything?
it proves something but not EVERYthing
=)
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JustinD
Oct 10, 09 16:07
Post #11 of 523 (5637 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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So are you saying that 84 is the better cadence to bike at? Just curious to hear what you think cause some say keep it fast 90-95+ but others say keep it in the 80's to save the fast twitch muscles for the run. Not sure what the best advice to follow is.
Slowman
Oct 10, 09 16:10
Post #12 of 523 (5630 views)
Re: cadence [Mr. Tibbs]
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"
So winning doesn't prove anything?"
well, it proves something. but what it proves is finite. when dave scott first won kona, he finished in 9:08. now, this wasn't his first ironman, he'd been ironman racing for three years at this point, about as long as chrissie has. but he won, so, as the winner, that says you're doing everything right, i guess. or does it? dave somehow found about an hour's worth of improvement between october 82 and october 89, and i don't think aerobars account for that.
chrissie's bike position looks great to me. when she's in it. but she spent a lot of time out of it in the last 12 or 15 miles, and i think that slows her down, and i think it's probably her cadence that created a bit of wear and tear. i also think eneko llanos' cranks look too long to me. i think it slows his cadence down, and creates a mechanical disadvantage at tdc, based on the position he's chosen (a position which, otherwise, looks great to me). i don't think riding 5 or 10 beats too slow, or with cranks 5mm too long, is going to keep a great athlete from a great performance. i just think there's room for improvement.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Slowman
Oct 10, 09 16:13
Post #13 of 523 (5615 views)
Re: cadence [JustinD]
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"
So are you saying that 84 is the better cadence to bike at? Just curious to hear what you think cause some say keep it fast 90-95+"
it depends on the distance and effort. both cadences are great, and, 70 is also a great cadence. for RAAM. and 105 is a great cadence, for a 40 minute effort. 84 or 85 is the mean cadence you see from the best men in kona. but i'd guess it's more like 90rpm at clearwater.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
jonnyo
Oct 10, 09 16:15
Post #14 of 523 (5615 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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Slowman..... look at all the best girls riding..... low cadance and brett sutton teaching. There is a reason for this. And a reason why they ride so well and can put solid marathon after. It wont work for men but for women.... i think Brett is the expert on teaching girls how to ride....
Jonathan Caron
Professional Triathlete and Coach
jonnyoworld.blogspot.com
Slowman
Oct 10, 09 16:18
Post #15 of 523 (5606 views)
Re: cadence [jonnyo]
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i know it comes from brett. but some ex brett athletes improved their bike when they increased their cadences. hillary biscay comes to mind. most of brett's IM athletes are still in the prime of their careers. we have a few more years to watch how all this plays out.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
jonnyo
Oct 10, 09 16:21
Post #16 of 523 (5592 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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well, that is interesting you bring Hillary up. Her performance arent in part with last year but perhaps you call this improvement?
who else are you thinking about? you says
some athletes
. I m very curious....
Jonathan Caron
Professional Triathlete and Coach
jonnyoworld.blogspot.com
ndenezzo
Oct 10, 09 16:21
Post #17 of 523 (5590 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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In Reply To:
"
So are you saying that 84 is the better cadence to bike at? Just curious to hear what you think cause some say keep it fast 90-95+"
it depends on the distance and effort. both cadences are great, and, 70 is also a great cadence. for RAAM. and 105 is a great cadence, for a 40 minute effort. 84 or 85 is the mean cadence you see from the best men in kona. but i'd guess it's more like 90rpm at clearwater.
Isn't it true that cadence is a somewhat personal preference?
I was always under the impression that, while there is an ideal range, some people just feel comfortable at higher or lower cadences within that range. So while one person is most efficient at 80 rpm, another prefers and functions better at 90 rpm.
Tri509
Oct 10, 09 16:23
Post #18 of 523 (5588 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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Lietos cadence looked to be around 90-95. I did not count so I might be wrong...
skinny
Oct 10, 09 16:27
Post #19 of 523 (5575 views)
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jackmott
Oct 10, 09 16:28
Post #20 of 523 (5571 views)
Re: cadence [skinny]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
i think Brett is the expert on teaching girls how to ride....
genius
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Slowman
Oct 10, 09 16:29
Post #21 of 523 (5569 views)
Re: cadence [jonnyo]
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"
well, that is interesting you bring Hillary up. Her performance arent in part with last year but perhaps you call this improvement? "
her last year with brett, she came to me for a bike fit, but it had to be on the down-low (and her case is not unique, i've fit several of his athletes). new fit, new cadence, great bike in brazil, then her first win later that year. finally, leading off the bike. now, this year, lots of things can create a problem for an athlete. i don't like to use anecdotal evidence, just, you brought up brett's females as a set of monolothic low-cadence riders, and, that's not quite the case.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
avagoyamug
Oct 10, 09 16:31
Post #22 of 523 (5558 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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Yes the low cadence riders are all really struggling on the run they should follow Stadler and ride at over 100 he's flying on the run.
jonnyo
Oct 10, 09 16:38
Post #23 of 523 (5537 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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changes take time to take there effect. Perhaps those change have started to hunt her this season?
I do beleive she did the training with TeamTBB last year for all those races you mention. If so, i know what ever fit she had, she as spend 90% of her training at some slow cadance. I honestly dont know why it s working so well for girls but it is........ and when i take into account performance, i dont only look at the bike split but the race overall.
So, i dont have the explanation but i can definitly notice that the best women rider at ironman have lower cadance than the best men. Dont you agree ?
If i understand correctly, your saying those girls would gain in overall performance from speeding up there cadance?
Jonathan Caron
Professional Triathlete and Coach
jonnyoworld.blogspot.com
Slowman
Oct 10, 09 16:38
Post #24 of 523 (2098 views)
Re: cadence [ndenezzo]
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"
Isn't it true that cadence is a somewhat personal preference?"
you can say that about anything, i guess. but when a locus of points form around the best athletes, i think you have to have a good reason to vary from that. bert grabsch was last year's world tt champ. but, this year, he was eaten up badly by cancellara. 105 beat 85 rpm. and it almost always does. yes, you have outliers -- grabsch, gonchar -- and maybe 85 in grabsch' case, or even slower in gonchar's case, is better for them. or, maybe they'd be faster if they'd learn to turn like 95% of the other great male time trialers.
i can't imagine a sporting activity where there is not a gathering around a particular technique by the best exemplars of that sport. sometimes you see a paradigm shifter, but, then the locus forms around that guy's technique. can you think of any sport where there's no consensus of how the activity is executed? that everybody just flies around doing it his own weird way?
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
JustinD
Oct 10, 09 16:38
Post #25 of 523 (2097 views)
Re: cadence [Slowman]
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So you're saying 90 for Clearwater, what would you say for olympic distance racing? Trying to figure this out for next year when I start racing for some speed! Thanks for the help Dan.
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