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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Wolf fork failure (pics)

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rroof

Feb 2, 08 13:52

Post #1 of 150 (9487 views)

Wolf fork failure (pics)	Can't Post

Ouch ...

Well, only some minor road rash to add to my lovely knees. Broke just like Hincapie's did at Paris-Roubaix I think (right blow the stem) The details:

Wolf SL (all carbon) on a Cervelo Soloist Carbon. About 8,200 miles on the fork. Installed per instructions with the epoxied aluminum insert at a reputable shop (bout new at my LBS). VERY short (I run no spacers at all). FSA OS 115 stem torqued to spec. 155-165# rider. Stopped at an intersection, heading for some hill riding (Indian hill area of course for the Cincy peeps). Started and torqued the bars some to get a jump through the intersection at the green light - SNAP! Down, right in the middle of the intersection. Just about got ran over by the minivan behind me (tire about 2 inches from my leg). Didn't know what happened.

Funny part was after the "rescue me" call to the Mrs., a biker comes by to ask if I was OK. He was a BIG guy on a new looking cyclocross bike that he hopped a few curbs and things to get to me. He chuckled seeing me in my roadie kit and my ultralight (15.6 lbs) Cervelo with the steerer snapped. He probably wouldn't have stopped at all if I was in my Tri get up and tribike! We chuckled a sec about our *differences* before he spun off ...

Anyway, any fork recs from the Slowtwitch braintrust? Time to do some *research* ... Easton, Look, Reynolds?

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Record10Carbon

Feb 2, 08 13:56

Post #2 of 150 (9463 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Wow, good thing that you were not hurt worse. I have seen that before on AlphaQ and on a Wolf...plus for some reason the AlphaQ plus had been known to creak at the insert. I may be just a nut and wrong about this...but I will only ride a woven carbon steer tube. Not sure it is any safer but I feel that if it was to fail the weave may just keep the works not falling off.

rroof

Feb 2, 08 14:02

Post #3 of 150 (9435 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [Record10Carbon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yeah, could have been a LOT worse. I was only 4 miles from home, but also only about 1 mile from a 45 mph downhill! After that, it was to be up, down, hill repeats, etc. Could have been ugly.

I'm not *down* on the fork at all - great fork, and I know parts fail (esp carbon ones) but I think I'll shy away from a Wolf or AlphaQ ultralight fork. I think I'll still go all carbon (maybe) ;-)
____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

GregX

Feb 2, 08 14:08

Post #4 of 150 (9404 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

the obvious: you are very, very, lucky.

talk to the big C, maybe they'll help you.

and try to get a fork with an AL steerer.

"Half of what we taught you is wrong. Unfortunately, we do not know which half."
-- Dean and cardiologist C. S. Burwell to a Harvard Med School graduating class.
Where would you want to swim ?

(This post was edited by GregX on Feb 2, 08 17:46)

ranger5oh

Feb 2, 08 14:22

Post #5 of 150 (9357 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [GregX] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree.. is the weight savings of a carbon steerer worth that kind of risk? Aluminum is so reliable for parts like that . Im just not enough of a weight weenie to care personally.

tribreck

Feb 2, 08 14:26

Post #6 of 150 (9343 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Glad your OK!

jedi_tri_guy

Feb 2, 08 14:31

Post #7 of 150 (9332 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Time to go check my fork! Luck is on definitely on your side today. I ride an Easton EC90 SLX (bike came with it), but I've heard rumours that there are some issues with it. Haven't been able to find any hard facts on it though. I have about 10k miles on it and it still rides great with me being harsh on the roads bumps and potholes.

Having said that, does anyone know how often you should replace a fork (if any)? My next one will probably be a Reynold's with an alu steerer. Screw weight savings...

=====================================

Use the FORCE!

If that doesn't work then just hang on tight.

footwerx

Feb 2, 08 15:57

Post #8 of 150 (9168 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

i've read about this with the Wolf SL before, and i would think it's a warranty issue. Having said that, if you have lost confidence in the Wolf SL, and you still want an full-on aero fork then do consider the Blackwell Research forks. I own the non-UCI legal Bandit and the steerer tube is the thickest i have ever seen. Not very light obviously but ok for so much material. Other aero forks to consider would be the Edge Composites aero fork, the Reynolds Ouzo Pro Aero (which tests very well incidentally). For non-aero, consider the Look HSC 5SL, Ritchey WCS or Easton EC90SL.

spot

Feb 2, 08 16:00

Post #9 of 150 (9157 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dude, that sucks! Glad to hear you're OK.

Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."

Erik

Feb 2, 08 16:13

Post #10 of 150 (9106 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

glad you are safe

----------------------------------------------------
Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year

psycholist

Feb 2, 08 16:18

Post #11 of 150 (9088 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Man ... I'm really glad you're OK.

I was going to tell you that I don't do carbon steer tubes, but Trek just sent me out an '07 Madone 5.2sl frameset/fork as a warranty replacement for an old OCLV that developed a crack. I don't know what's on that Madone. I'm certainly going to go check.

Funny, I just saw a video of Hincapie's Paris Roubaix "look Ma, no bars" moment yesterday.

Heal up quickly!

Bob

Spoon

Feb 2, 08 16:18

Post #12 of 150 (9088 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Glad you're OK. Carbon scares the crap out of me. A friend's cyclocross handlebar failure. He was lucky too.

NTM

Feb 2, 08 16:24

Post #13 of 150 (9065 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It doesn't say anything on pg 15 of the cervelo owners manual about minimum stack height (spacers below stem) but many fork companies recommend a minimum. I don't know why some companies do and others don't.

rroof

Feb 2, 08 16:32

Post #14 of 150 (9038 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [psycholist] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks all -

Bob - I'm not all that gung ho on carbon parts either (I'll never understand carbon bars and stems since they are no lighter anyway), but Hincapie's steerer tube failure was a steel (or aluminum) one, and not carbon! I've heard that carbon parts don't necessarily fail any more than metal ones, but installation/torquing instructions are more critical. I'm not sold yet, but 200g and a nicer ride (I think I can tell) and I'm light still points me to an all carbon fork ...

Well, got some research done now. This might help some people. What I have learned (all high end forks).

ONLY difference between the Wolf SL and CL is the carbon vs. steel steerer tube.

The new Reynolds UL (needed since their very nice Ouzo Pro/Peloton forks haven't upgraded in a while and many forks are now much lighter) has a recall

The Easton EC90 SLX tests poorly with lateral rigidity (German Tour magazine), but is under 300g

I can find very little real data about the Edge composites forks or where to buy.

The Blackwell forks don't belong on my road bike!

The LOOK HSC 5SL is also under 300g, tests well with stiffness, and has no reported failure issues that I could find. They just released a new HSC 6 that is 15g heavier, but even stiffer. This *LOOKS* (pun intended) to be my next fork ... but, they have an integrated crown at 36 degrees and I think the internal headset of the Soloist is the standard 45 degrees? What the? I can't seem to find out. Looking at it looks like the std. FSA/Cane Creek stuff (45/45). FSA site lists 45/36. Does that mean 45 degrees upper and 36 lower?
____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

rroof

Feb 2, 08 16:35

Post #15 of 150 (9023 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [NTM] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Actually, if you dig, Cervelo recommends less than 80mm (std 15 top cap plus 3 10mm spacers, then stem) on the Wolf SL fork. This coincides with the 125mm aluminum sleeve that gets epoxied in during installation. There is no min for the CL. I was WAY below that though with only the 15mm top cap and zero spacers.

I'm getting quite the steerer tube education here (with ice on my knee) :-(

Anyway, for others that ride hard and have some miles on ... go check your steerer tubes tonight!!!
____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

(This post was edited by rroof on Feb 2, 08 16:36)

footwerx

Feb 2, 08 16:37

Post #16 of 150 (9015 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The HSC 6 fork can only work with the Look 595 and 586 i think. They have a unique structure somewhat like the Kuota fork, and so cannot work after market with other bikes, hence why i suggested the HSC 5.

Record10Carbon

Feb 2, 08 16:40

Post #17 of 150 (9000 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [Spoon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You know how often I hear "wow, cant beleive you dont have a carbon handlebar"...yeah, I have full Record, nice wheels and a custom frame...I however like my teeth far too much to risk a carbon bar.

PLUS - a Deda Newton Alu bar weighs 35gm LESS than an EC-70 and just 5gm more than the SLX...for my 5gm I will put on a little less bar tape.

cheyou

Feb 2, 08 16:44

Post #18 of 150 (8990 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

glad you are ok
I am keeping old school (bike weight with stuff 20 LBS)
steel is real
super chicken I am I am
I will lose the weight in my fat ass instead
Dan wrote on carbon light weight forks

footwerx

Feb 2, 08 16:49

Post #19 of 150 (8979 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [Record10Carbon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

i agree with you in principle, but your numbers are all wrong. i've never weighed a newton under 240g.

Record10Carbon

Feb 2, 08 16:52

Post #20 of 150 (8972 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [footwerx] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Picked the numbers Colorado Cyclist dot com. Not sure how valid they are.

karma

Feb 2, 08 16:53

Post #21 of 150 (8964 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Looks like you are having quite the time with your research. Have you come across anything in regards to the Profile Designs ADC All Carbon fork? Apparently its the official fork of Ironman (like that's a big deal, I can also go out and buy the official mattress of Ironman too). I have one, the fork that is, I'm about to install this week on my Cervelo P2C. All I see in the instructions is they say no more than 20MM of spacers between the headset and the stem.

I got a fantastic deal on the fork, brand new with an uncut steer tube for $130.00. All I need is a headset and I will be ready to build her up.

Cheers,

Dave

_______________________________________________
"For those people who just refuse to be likeable, I'll accommodate them by not liking them" - Slowman

Record10Carbon

Feb 2, 08 16:56

Post #22 of 150 (8948 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [karma] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Profile forks you will have a hard time finding anything bad about - other than weight. Used to call the BDC "Brick Deep Carbon"...it was about twice the weight of other forks. I have ARC on my Bianchi fixie...in the hand it is my heaviest non aero fork (compared to Easton SLX, Look HFC, Ouzo Pro and even a Specialided OEM)

cincytri

Feb 2, 08 16:59

Post #23 of 150 (8932 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Rod-
Well, you are freaking really lucky that didn't happen further along on your ride. I don't even want to know how that could have turned out if it had happened by Her Honor's house!
You may have some outdated info on your fork installation. Go check out the Cervelo forum regarding "fork insert" and the Wolf SL. Spend a little time reading up on some of the posts and you will quickly understand that there is a great deal of confusion regarding the issue. My understanding is that Cervelo is now advising no more than 65mm stack height above the headtube, while Alpha Q/True Temper recommends no more than 70mm. This means that a 40mm stem + 15mm top cap+10mm spacer= 65mm and you are tapped out. The aluminum insert is only 75mm long and must extend 10mm below the upper headset bearing. There is no way that you could do that with 30mm worth of spacers. Check out the raging debates on the forum and notice the very different ways that the SL fork has been installed by shops depending on their reading of the instructions. Check out the posts from "Cervelocs" (I think)- he works for Cervelo and has attempted to clarify the instructions somewhat...and not very well I might add.
I don't think that this situation applied to you however. IIRC, you had no spacers, so not an issue. Just as an aside, I saw that Cervelo is now shipping the SL forks with 125mm inserts and that they are already installed. I am absolutely **shocked** that this is the first time that the topic has come up on ST. I still have a brand new Wolf SL sitting in my basement because I just don't know what to do with it. Cervelo, in my opinion, really dropped the ball on this one...

Record10Carbon

Feb 2, 08 17:04

Post #24 of 150 (8913 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [cincytri] [In reply to]	Can't Post

If they know that...why do they not ship the fork with it cut to the minimum? Not to hard to do that math.

rroof

Feb 2, 08 17:06

Post #25 of 150 (8901 views)

Re: Wolf fork failure (pics) [cincytri] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yeah, I was reading around on the forums there. Does seem like quite a mess for Cervelo - add the *shortage* of Wolf SL forks! Well, Josh, you are a LOT more timid and bigger than me, so I don't think I'd be installing that!

And yes, I was heading down to Spooky Hollow, Camargo, etc. My usual stomping grounds ... I'm sure one of the Bentleys or Rolls Royces would have just run me over like a speed bump there if I was splayed out on one of those hills ;)

Again, I think True Temper makes some OK stuff (Wolf, Alpha Q), but they, like other companies (now the Reynold recall) are pushing the envelop some.

I did think about the brick Profile Design fork (can buy 3 for the price of the HSC 5 SL), but ... nah! ;-)
____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

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