Why so many Olympic swimming events?

Aug 12, 08 4:31

Post #1 of 84 (9288 views)

Am sure this has been raised here before (probably recently) - but what is the justification for having so many swimming events in the Olympics when so many of the competitors are able to be competitive in multiple events?

Not taking anything away from Phelps who is outstanding, but it does seem crazy that he is able to even compete in 8 events, let alone have a shot at winning them all. And he's not the only one - at pretty much every games there'll be at least one swimmer who walks away with at least 4 or 5 medals - Spitz, Biondi, Popov, Thorpe. In Athens, Peirsol got 3 golds and barely even got a mention because of Phelps! In no other sport are medals given out on this scale - picking up 2 or 3 medals in track and field makes you a legend of the sport, 4 has only been done twice in history (excluding Jones) I think.

Swimming gives out 32 gold medals in the pool (34 if you include the 10k), and the events really aren't that diverse with all 32 of them being races under 15 minutes. Do we really need freestyle events at 50m, 100m, 200m, 400m when there's a very good chance that the same individual will win at least 2 of them and quite likely feature in the medleys or other strokes as well? To compare, cycling only has 18 events and that includes road, track, MTB and BMX in a huge variety of formats and distances. Wiggins has a shot at 3 golds but that is unprecedented. Rowing only has 14 events and no competitor has ever won more than 2 medals - why not let the rowers also compete over 250m, 500m, 1000m and 2000m? Or in relays?

No disrespect to the swimmers, but there are plenty of other sports at the Olympics where the athletes train just as many hours, if not more, and are just as gifted, and are competing for one medal per games. It just seems a little unfair that if Phelps entered the Games as a country he'd probably be in the top 10 on the medal table on his own.

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 4:35

Post #2 of 84 (9282 views)

In Reply To:

Do we really need freestyle events at 50m, 100m, 200m, 400m when there's a very good chance that the same individual will win at least 2 of them and quite likely feature in the medleys or other strokes as well?[/quote] Those are all very, very different races. 50 and 100 are pure sprinting, 200 is the borderline between aerobic and anaerobic, 400m is a distance race.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 5:10

Post #3 of 84 (9242 views)

Swimming is just like track. There are a series of races of varying lengths (swimming throws in some different strokes) and when you have a meet, any meet, all the events are done.

The swimming events at the Olympics are just the standard events that are done at virtually any swim meet. Go watch some 10 year olds swim in a summer league meet at your local pool and there will be a race in each stroke, an IM and a couple freestyle races of varying lengths, a medley relay and a freestyle relay. The distances get longer as the kids get older. The actual races done at the Olympics are essentially the same that are done at every college dual meet or any age group meet for kids 14 or over.

Last edited by: STP: Aug 12, 08 5:11

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 5:25

Post #4 of 84 (9218 views)

In Reply To:

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Do we really need freestyle events at 50m, 100m, 200m, 400m when there's a very good chance that the same individual will win at least 2 of them and quite likely feature in the medleys or other strokes as well?[/quote] Those are all very, very different races. 50 and 100 are pure sprinting, 200 is the borderline between aerobic and anaerobic, 400m is a distance race.

So how come somebody like Thorpe can win bronze at 100m and gold at 200m and 400m? That is like Tyson Gay winning the 800m, or Mark Cavendish winning the time trial in cycling. Seems that if one guy can be competitive in a pure sprint race and at a distance race in the same meet, then the distances need to be spaced out more.

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 5:36

Post #5 of 84 (9190 views)

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So how come somebody like Thorpe can win bronze at 100m and gold at 200m and 400m? That is like Tyson Gay winning the 800m, or Mark Cavendish winning the time trial in cycling. Seems that if one guy can be competitive in a pure sprint race and at a distance race in the same meet, then the distances need to be spaced out more.

Because he was one of the all time greats. Same goes for Phelps.

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [STP] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 5:44

Post #6 of 84 (9165 views)

In Reply To:

Swimming is just like track. There are a series of races of varying lengths (swimming throws in some different strokes) and when you have a meet, any meet, all the events are done.

The swimming events at the Olympics are just the standard events that are done at virtually any swim meet. Go watch some 10 year olds swim in a summer league meet at your local pool and there will be a race in each stroke, an IM and a couple freestyle races of varying lengths, a medley relay and a freestyle relay. The distances get longer as the kids get older. The actual races done at the Olympics are essentially the same that are done at every college dual meet or any age group meet for kids 14 or over.

But it's different to track insofar as at a typical Games, the most outstanding track athletes only compete in 2 or 3 events and winning multiple golds is extremely rare. And it's also different to other sports which have to drop events from their schedule when it comes to the Olympics - track cycling has about half as many events in Beijing as it does at the world champs for example. Same with rowing.

There isn't as much specialisation between the swimming events as there is between the events in other sports.

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 5:46

Post #7 of 84 (9160 views)

Have you ever watched speed skating in the winter olympics? There are a ton of medals available there too (not as many as swimming, but...)

I am not sure, but I believe you are concerned that someone in swimming gets more glory than someone in another sport because there are more medals available. But you diffuse that argument yourself when you say

"Peirsol got 3 golds and barely even got a mention because of Phelps"[/quote]
Phelps got all the hype for winning 8 medals (6 gold). It seems that a swimmer must win a ton of medals to become a legend (Spitz). Unlike a track athlete for whom..."picking up 2 or 3 medals in track and field makes [them]a legend of the sport"

There is a tradition in swimming that there are a lot of distances. In the end I think it comes down to ROI. If Beijing is going to build a massive swimming structure then there has to be a lot of races there to make the facility worthwhile. To cut out those races simply because some swimmers are able to compete in various distances would make swimming a poor ROI.

BTW. the 10k is a OW swim which we all know is completely different from a pool swim.

Dave

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 5:48

Post #8 of 84 (9154 views)

I agree with you completely. You'll never win over the swimmers on the board who really know the disatnces but objectively the facts are undeniable - winning multiple medals in swimming means less than in a lot of other sports. As others have pointed out that is how swimming is organized however so I don't see any reason to change it. The only place it gets silly is in the national medal table where I suspect the nation of Phelps will end up placing in the top 20. That table leads to cynical programs like China's "Project 119" where they have gone after medals in sports weher they believe there is more likely to be a medal pay-off.

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 5:50

Post #9 of 84 (9144 views)

In Reply To:

So how come somebody like Thorpe can win bronze at 100m and gold at 200m and 400m?[/quote]

'cuz he's a wicked good swimmer.

In Reply To:

Seems that if one guy can be competitive in a pure sprint race and at a distance race in the same meet, then the distances need to be spaced out more.[/quote] Okay, you're hypothetically in charge. Propose your list of events.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Last edited by: tigerchik: Aug 12, 08 5:52

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [Dave in Canada] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 5:56

Post #10 of 84 (9134 views)

In the end I think it comes down to ROI. If Beijing is going to build a massive swimming structure then there has to be a lot of races there to make the facility worthwhile. To cut out those races simply because some swimmers are able to compete in various distances would make swimming a poor ROI.

Money does have alot to do with it. There are 3 sports at the Olympics which drive television ratings, particularly in the US. They are gymnastics, track and field and swimming. Swimming doesn't get "extra" events for the the Olympics but it does get to run its normal full championship meet schedule (just like track and field) because it is a highly popular sport (at least at the Olympics) and it brings in the bucks.

NBC was able to make the Olympic organizers completely change the swimming schedule to fit US TV times. The finals in swimming are in the morning so they can be broadcast live in the US. This is almost unheard of in swimming as the finals at big meets are almost always in the evening.

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 5:56

Post #11 of 84 (9133 views)

It does seem rather redundant and overkill, especially when in cycling a rather key event like the kilo is eliminated. The thing that gets me is the coverage of the preliminary heats. That has got to be the most boring sports related TV I've ever seen, worse than preseason football. I hope we'll get to see all the qualifying rounds in the match sprint and the pursuit but I'm not holding my breath.

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [admill] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 5:59

Post #12 of 84 (9121 views)

has got to be the most boring sports related TV I've ever seen, worse than preseason football.

Watching world class swimmers swim is boring? A rather strange sentiment to see on a triathlon forum. (Or, given how triathletes swim, maybe not that strange ;-)

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 6:04

Post #13 of 84 (9107 views)

I have not competed in swimming(swim team at age 8) or running at any level so I can't be sure, but here is my thoughts.

Serious swimmers(kids and up) swim 4k meters per day. Even on race days it seems like Phelps probably swims that distance.

4k meters swimming is an equivalent of a half-marathon running in calorie consumption.

I am confident that most serious non-marathon runners DON'T run 13.1 miles per day(92 miles/week) and especially not on the same day as a race.

It is simply a matter of recovery. Swimming has better recovery so turnaround is much easier.

I am sure Tyson Gay could be competitive in multiple distances, but his body could not take it so he has to specialize.

Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 6:05

Post #14 of 84 (9102 views)

In Reply To:

Okay, you're hypothetically in charge. Propose your list of events.[/quote]
Take out the 50m freestyle and all the 200m events - including the 200m IM and the 200m relays. Bump the women's 800m freestyle up to 1500m. That leaves 19 events by my reckoning and the absolute top swimmers could still have a pop at 4, maybe 5, which would put them on a par with the absolute top athletes.

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [leggett24] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 6:23

Post #15 of 84 (9071 views)

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So how come somebody like Thorpe can win bronze at 100m and gold at 200m and 400m? That is like Tyson Gay winning the 800m, or Mark Cavendish winning the time trial in cycling. Seems that if one guy can be competitive in a pure sprint race and at a distance race in the same meet, then the distances need to be spaced out more.

Because he was one of the all time greats. Same goes for Phelps.

At pretty much every Games a swimmer goes home with more medals than any athlete has ever won in a single Olympics. They can't all be 'all time greats'.

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 6:25

Post #16 of 84 (9069 views)

Quote:

In Reply To

So how come somebody like Thorpe can win bronze at 100m and gold at 200m and 400m?
'cuz he's a wicked good swimmer.

If Thorpe and Phelps are wicked good swimmers, weren't El Guerrouj, Michael Johnson and Gebresellasie wicked good runners? Running and swimming are similar sports in a number of ways: repetitive motion, success dependent on development of energy systems and technique through many hours of training, etc.

So why is it that an all-time great in swimming might be able to win 8 gold medals when an all-time great in running could only win 2-4?

I'm going to leave aside the argument that at the elite level runners are higher calibre athletes than swimmers due to the larger pool of talent in running.

Isn't contesting the different strokes in swimming the equivalent of holding backwards or sideways running races? Shouldn't it just be a matter of who gets to the end of X distance fastest, regardless of the technique they use to do it?

Last edited by: donm: Aug 12, 08 6:33

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 6:34

Post #17 of 84 (9037 views)

Vitaly Scherbo won 6 out of a possible 8 gold medals in Men's Gymnastics a few Olympics ago...better start eliminating some of those events too I guess, huh?

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [donm] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 6:49

Post #18 of 84 (9004 views)

In Reply To:

Isn't contesting the different strokes in swimming the equivalent of holding backwards or sideways running races? Shouldn't it just be a matter of who gets to the end of X distance fastest, regardless of the technique they use to do it?[/quote]
Not at all... all those four strokes feel so different... they are all different motions! And you'll have some people who are really good breaststrokes but not good distance freestylists, etc. You could run backward or sideways but it's impractical. Different swim strokes aren't.

Freestyle technically means anything, you could swim your 800m freestyle in butterfly if you felt like it. (Doesn't work the other way, try to swim a 200 fly as breaststroke, you'll get disqualified)

I'm not explaining it very eloquently but all the different strokes and distances are such different races. It'd be a shame if you didn't swim all of them.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 6:55

Post #19 of 84 (8992 views)

Okay, but running backwards feels very different from running sideways, which feels very different from running forwards. Just because they feel different, it doesn't mean they belong at the Olympics. By the same token, I'm sure there would be some people who are good at running backwards, but not at running sideways...does that mean we should have both events at the Olympics?

I know what you mean, but the different strokes are used in swim meets and at the Olympics because of tradition, not for any logical reason that would preclude the inclusion of backwards running in the Olympics.

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [donm] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 7:01

Post #20 of 84 (8975 views)

Tradition, yes, and tradition is fine.

Different athletes specialize in different races... stroke, distance. My roommate is on my school's team, we're a D1 school. She is a 200 butterflier. She does okay in the 50 and 100 fly... but she's a 200 flyer... everyone has "their" race. You can't just go not swim all the events!!!!

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 7:10

Post #21 of 84 (8951 views)

In Reply To:

Vitaly Scherbo won 6 out of a possible 8 gold medals in Men's Gymnastics a few Olympics ago...better start eliminating some of those events too I guess, huh?

Hell yeah!

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 7:12

Post #22 of 84 (8947 views)

The swimming events that are swum are the fairly standard set of swimming events. Men and women swim virtually the same events at almost any championship meet (NCAA, YMCA, USS Nationals, Junior Nationals and various sectional meets) in the US except for high school championship meets. It seems to me that track at the Olympics is now pretty much the same as track at other major events. The primary difference in results is that there is more specialization in track, partly because there is a much larger pool of athletes and partly because you cannot recover from running events as quickly as you can from swimming events.

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 7:17

Post #23 of 84 (8931 views)

It's pretty clear that some of the people posting are not, have never been, never will be and clearly don't care to be swimmers. Thus, there is no understanding of the way the sport works, it's history or what it takes to "be a swimmer".

You just proposed to drop out some of the most challenging races in swimming by eliminating the 200's. I would hazard a guess that even the worst triathlete can swim a 50yd freestyle, most likely even a hundred at a respectable (respectable is not fast) speed. But could that person swim a 100yd fly, or breaststroke and still be respectable? And could that person survive a 200 at top speed in ANY stroke? Those that can be competitive in a number of things are simply better swimmers, more talented, and harder-working. There are a ton of events, yes, because that's how swimming works. Each distance is a test of different mentalities and endurance. Each stroke is a test of different body-types, talent-pools and capabilities.

You proposing to drop out some of the events when you don't fully understand what you're talking about is like me saying that shooting is absolutely unnecessary in the Olympics because it's a mere test of squinting and eyesight. I keep my mouth shut on that because I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe we should eliminate either the javelin or the shotput because, basically, they're just throwing crap, and isn't that the same thing?

AW

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [donm] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 7:24

Post #24 of 84 (8912 views)

It's the sport.....there are 4 strokes I don't really know what everyone is questioning....that's the way it is. There are so many different running events, even more than swimming......I guess I would say whats the point of hurdles...somewhere along the way someone said, "Their running fast, lets make them jump things"

I am not overly familiar with all the track events but......
Just plain old running -100,200,400,800,1500,3000,5000,10000, Relays of all combinations......4x100, 4x200,4x400, etc
Hurdles - 100,200,400, ? , steeplechase

Then there are all the field events.....
Long jump, triple long jump,( or hop, skip, jump), etc

Then there are the combinations of both......decathlon, etc.

Then there is the marathon and not to mention speed walking.

I know there are differences between running and swimming, but why can't someone run the 200, 400, 800, throw some relays in there, maybe add a hurdle event...just because it has never been done before?

There are huge differences in the 50,100,200 in swimming just like there are in the 100,200,400 in running.

Last edited by: H2Owings: Aug 12, 08 7:26

Re: Why so many Olympic swimming events? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 08 7:26

Post #25 of 84 (8903 views)

The simplest answer is that the swimming events were added to the program when it was easier to add events, that is all there is to it.

The 10k was added this time around but you must admit, it is really a different thing than the pool events.

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