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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Who won the Morgantown HIM?

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leh

Jun 30, 08 12:48

Post #26 of 48 (888 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [monty] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

You are exactly right. The front runners always find any course problems, and they usually get fixed immediatly, but after the damage to them is done. That's why you find all these glowing reports on this thread about how the course was perfect, they were not in the lead. The were the benafactors to Davids course blazing, and instead of bagging on him, they should be kissing his ass and thanking him. I can't tell you how many times I have been in this exact same scenario. AS a RD, you have to put yourself into the mindset of the leader, and mark your course accordingly. When I put on races, I had a 3 prong approach to every trun and corner. Mark the road, put up a sign ahead of it, and have a volunteer there. That way, if any one or two did not happen for whatever reason, there was always a back up for the athlete. Sometimes people don't show up, they are taking a piss, not paying attention, whatever. Maybe the course guy forgot the sign. But if there are arrows painted on the road, at least at a minium, an athlete can figure out which way to go. There is no excuse for this, and I don't blame David at all for not finishing. It sounds like he was way out of the running when he figured it out, and what is the point?? Nothing worse than having the win and money taken from you by bad course management.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weird, tried responding and all that came up was the quote.

At local races I have been the leader and know the frustrations of poorly marked courses. Some of these races have no course map and at one race you only received feedback if you made the correct turn (yeah, the arrow was AFTER the turn!). However, for Morgantown, HFP provided every racer with a course map in the race packet AND the course WAS extremely well marked with orange arrows spray painted all over the place. I hit that turn maybe 5-10 mins after the lead guys with nobody in sight in front of me and had no question about where to go. (Can't recall anybody manning the turn on the first lap.) Could swear there was an arrow there but even if there wasn't, having driven the course the day before there was never a question in my mind about turning. I think maybe in the heat of competition they didn't notice or were more concerned about the big potholes on the road by that turn. Once one guy misses a turn others tend to follow blindly. I had that happen once but having done the course a few times previously realized the guys in front of me were mistaken and turned back quickly and shouted out to the others who missed the turn. GOTTA know the course guys, esp when there is big money on the line! It is worth spending an hour driving the course the day before - the race packet had it included.

(This post was edited by leh on Jun 30, 08 13:25)

trukweaz

Jun 30, 08 13:07

Post #27 of 48 (858 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [beavertriathlon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dont over look second place pro, ST own Mike Caiazzo too. Full time financial dude and father of 2 under 2!

KP

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monty

Jun 30, 08 13:36

Post #28 of 48 (823 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [leh] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I hit that turn maybe 5-10 mins after the lead guys with nobody in sight in front of me and had no question about where to go. \\

I guess you missed my point, at least you ignored it. I said it is the leaders(not the guys that get there 5 to 10 minutes later) that find the mistakes. We have already heard from someone here who was a leader, that saw no marking, no volunteer, ect, and went off course himself. The first two went off course, so something was wrong before you got there. And this course map stuff is bullshit, and you should know the course is a lame excuse for any RD. Mark the dam course correctly. There are so many turns and intersections, sometimes turnarounds in the middle of a road in the middle of no where, that to expect that racers should just know where to go without any markings is just plain stupid. If that were the case, then why have any markings at all, just follow your map.... Of course we know this is stupid, people would be all over the place without proper markings, no matter how much you have studied the map. And I have been in races where the course had to change at last minute, and the maps are no good. You have to mark the course period, do not blame the front running athletes. Like I said, you should be kissing their ass and thanking them for making sure that you did not get confused....

leh

Jun 30, 08 13:43

Post #29 of 48 (816 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [LJackson] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I think you may have saw me go down in front of you. I will say that there was not a volunteer at that turn after the first out and back. I don not blaim hfp though. The most prepared athlete always wins. This means fitness, nutrition, gear selection, resting, and course knowledge. All in all, another great race by HFP. Just fix the bugs in your website guys.

Jon

Jun 30, 08 13:48

Post #30 of 48 (809 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [beavertriathlon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have nothing but fantastic things to say about this race. The course was extremely well marked. It was very scenic. Really one of the nicer run courses I've ever done. Despite being in the mountains, it was a fast course, except for the "Gates of Hell" on the run course which was one of the harder features I've ever experienced in a race.

Location was great. Host hotel was great and there is nothing as good as having a race where you can park your car on Friday night and not take it out of the lot again until its time to leave on Sunday; Plus having the hotel so close that you can sleep in a bit later than normal and run back to your room for the bathroom instead of waiting in line for a porta potty is a big plus. Good places to eat in walking distance.

4-star race. There's so many great races I want to do and I want to experience new ones, but then when you go to one as nice as the Morgantown Race its hard to not want to go back again.

I hate when people complain unnecessarily about a race. It was well marked and easy to follow. It's always worth driving the course the day before. There was a map showing the Olympic went one way and the half went for an out and back the other way. And there was a really big sign in the road. Yes there was a short section where the road had bumps in it. That's life - that's what happens to roads. It was a bit bumpy, but it wasn't exactly Paris-Roubaix. And guess what, it was a bit bumpy for everone.

I'm not the fastest guy in the world, but I've done major races on 4 different continents, and I can say with some authority that this was an awesome well-run race in a cool spot. I highly recommend the race with zero negative things to say about it. Its also one of the great things about triathlon - if that race was not there, I bet I would have never seen West Virginia in my life, and it was a really pretty area.

Flak

Jun 30, 08 14:34

Post #31 of 48 (790 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [Jon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I would have thought that of all the people racing yesterday, that the pros would be the ones to educate themselves on the course; especially if this kind of thing is common.

Sucks that some went off course, but HFP do try their very best to run a good race, and course info is more than available for anyone that wants to study it.

carbo

Jun 30, 08 14:59

Post #32 of 48 (780 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [baxnelly] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I saw the same thing. A few miles into my first bike lap I saw Thompson and another pro right behind him on the return towards town. I did some quick math and figured they averaged 60 mph for the first loop or they took a wrong turn.

The sharp turn that I believe they missed was a little tricky coupled with the huge puddle of water there.

Jeff

btmoney

Jun 30, 08 15:32

Post #33 of 48 (756 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [carbo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

YEAH DANIEL! Although I dont know him personally, we did our undergrad together at DePauw University, so I can root for the man and will do so all the way to Kona! He qualified for 70.3 Worlds by finishing 4th (whoops I thought it was 5th...) at IM Kansas 70.3.

(This post was edited by btmoney on Jun 30, 08 20:11)

USPro Tri

Jun 30, 08 15:50

Post #34 of 48 (738 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [Flak] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Actually quite the opposite....say a guy like Dave Thompson who races darn near every weekend. It would be hard to know what the heck was going on when you're entering/finding hotel/finding flight/tracking down luggage/trying to rent a car/trying to find the venue/trying to make the meetings/trying to make sponsor obligations/etc week after week just gets crazy. Many of the guys can't even get in until race morning, and it's quite common to enter races last second etc, miss the pro meeting because your flight was delayed, etc.

Plus, even with a good idea of the course map, I can promise you there were zero signs of any kind when we passed through the intersection, and it was addressed right after we passed through. Even with knowledge of the course, which I did study, there's no big signs or anything in the WV back country saying "100 East" or whatever the road is to know whether it's the right road or not. Without it being clear, you kind of feel like you're damned if you do, and your damned if you don't, so you don't know what to do.

Not blaming anyone, just happens sometimes, and just sucks when it does. But they are all pro's, and these things do happen when you race often enough. Sometimes cops/volunteers don't get there on time, a critical road cone gets knocked over, etc. You'd be hard pressed to find ANY race that didn't have some major/minor issue along the way no matter how good they are and how hard they tried to make it perfect.

Agreed, HFP does an excellent job though and I will continue to be at their races throughout my career!
http://USProTri.com
US Professional Triathlete Team!

mhemberg

Jun 30, 08 16:30

Post #35 of 48 (713 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [Jon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"I have nothing but fantastic things to say about this race. The course was extremely well marked. It was very scenic. Really one of the nicer run courses I've ever done."

I am not really sure I would agree with you description of scenic. That course took you through the biggest shit holes that Morgantown has to offer. Westover, Osage, Scotts Run, Star City, and the Student Ghetto. Morgantown is a pretty run down city but is really trying to improve its look. I think the course could be so much better. Campus is very pretty and you could do a bike around Cheat lake maybe taking advantage of the old iron bridge. The run could do an IMOO thing with the stadium and climbing sorority/fraternity row would be cool especially if you could get some loaded students out there cheering people on. Instead we get run down trailers, abondoned mines, cars on cinder blocks and the stench of roadkill.

HFP does do a very good job executing this event, but I got the feeling it was not as well attended or sponsored. The expo was non-existent the finishing medals were the size of a quarter it looked less crowded. None are a big deal to me just a general vibe I got.

monty

Jun 30, 08 16:32

Post #36 of 48 (713 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [Flak] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sucks that some went off course, but HFP do try their very best to run a good race, and course info is more than available for anyone that wants to study it. \\

I don't know why some of you think this is a personal attack against HFP. RD's screw up sometimes, does'nt mean they are horrible at their jobs, just means they screwed up. I have done it myself, and I paid the price for it. IF nothing was wrong at the intersection, then why was there a change after the first few got lost??? Course maps are great, but there is no way that you can use them for race day directions. Often times courses are on roads that are not even open, and driving a course is not the same as riding it on race day. Once again, it is simple, mark the course so everyone can see which way to go at every turn. They messed up on one turn for the top few guys and then fixed the problem. It is not an attack on the entire orginization, in fact it is a testament that they got it fixed quickly so that all of you bagging on David could find your way without having to guess which way do I go....There is some responsibility that the RD has to those top pros, and this one slipped through the cracks, it happens. But to just say that everything was perfect for me, and screw the ones that went off course, is just plain selfish....

Flak

Jun 30, 08 19:55

Post #37 of 48 (648 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [monty] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm not saying that at all. I feel bad for the guy, just commenting that im surprised the pros don't know the course backwards. I would have thought that it was standard issue for them to study the course ahead of time. Didn't realize many get in town the day of race (thats crazy). I drove it at 10pm the night before.

hectorguatemala

Jun 30, 08 20:28

Post #38 of 48 (637 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [Flak] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think Monty is right, the leaders pay the dues for the rest of us. At the famous right corner that everyone is talking about there was no one directing them and it was hard to tell - David did not go off by himself either - but the guys right behind him also made the wrong turn and neither of them knew whether they were going the right way or not, adittionally they did ask some cops for directions but the cops did not know the course (which is totally not their responsibility but there was no one else to ask) - as far as studying course back and forth - come on guys! if you raced 20 times a year, don't you think roads/signs would meld together?

Most races will even have a lead motorcycle so that the chances of the leader getting lost are lessened. All in all Monty is right in that the bjorns/dkts of this world tend to find the mistakes first and then come us age groupers cruising around and everything is fine...

and I stand by my comments that HFP is doing great things in tri (they are getting huge sponsors too which is great to see), while at the same time that morgantown site needs a serious site map and restructure. I think David was surprised by the lack of clearer direction at that corner since at Racine (also HFP event and a GREAT one at that) the course is so well marked and they have that operation down cold.

on a different but related note it sure seems like we have these "course" issue thread quite a bit here on ST. I think if you are a race director it should be mandatory to read at least 10 different ST threads on this issue so you lessen the chances of mistakes...I've been to races where they put tape on the pavement..totally crazy! if it rains/heats up tape is going worthless - Monty is totally right in having a 3 pronged approach.

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mcaiazzo

Jul 1, 08 7:21

Post #39 of 48 (565 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [hectorguatemala] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree with all of your comments. Were there not arrows on painted on the road prior to this intersection? For every intersect (or at least from what I remember) there were 3-6 arrows painted on the road prior to every turn. I would be surprised if they didn't have the same arrows at this corner. I know that is a tough corner even more so when the top guys are going like 30mph. It can come up really quick.
I do think it is the responsibility of the racers to know the course, but it is also the responsibility of the race director to make the course as clear as possible. I try and make a point to drive the course the day before the race to get an idea of the course and the layout. Just looking at a map doesn't always help that much.
Overall I think that the Spirit of Morgantown is great race and well run. I think more people should consider this race in the future.

Mike
http://www.MikeCaiazzo.com
For 10% Discount on TP Massage products enter code "MIKEC08".

tridan111

Jul 2, 08 5:47

Post #40 of 48 (466 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [mcaiazzo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I Can appreciate all the blogging and fingerpointing,although in this case I feel it is senseless. As the asst race director at Morgantown, (and the guy who painted the course, which took us well over 11 hours to do)-I can assure you (come back and see) that there were 3 arrows as well as a yellow tape arrow before the intersection at 4;45am race morning.....The thing that no-one can change is that in that intersection (the heaviest travelled coal route in Morgantown) there is black coaldust , which is a fine black powder and even when dry is impossible to get rid of, and when wet, (as when it started raining during the first part of the bike course)can become a sliperry and arrow muting mess... we did try to back up the arrows w/ bright tape arrows ...at that intersection, but it seems that they were destroyed by dust and rain as wel, ..
At the pro meeting, we did reiterate to Drive the bike course and see where the problem areas are.And to BE SURE TO KNOW THE COURSE -We did the best we always do.
I feel bad about the few mistakes by the top guys.., but can assure everyone, we always try to do the best job and create safe and clear courses as we possibly can, while trying to keep them as challenging and interresting as we can . Hope this clears it up.. we will get billboards next year......lol
Best to you all.
Daniel-HFP

mcaiazzo

Jul 2, 08 5:57

Post #41 of 48 (455 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [tridan111] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I knew there were arrows at that intersection. Also if I remember there was a large orange barrel there too. I was thinking that when I was racing the course, that it must have taken forever to paint all of the potholes and arrows on the course.

Thanks for putting on a great race.

Mike
http://www.MikeCaiazzo.com
For 10% Discount on TP Massage products enter code "MIKEC08".

GregAThom

Jul 2, 08 7:57

Post #42 of 48 (412 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [tridan111] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I went over the boarder to Wisconsin yesterday evening to procure supplies for an upcoming American holiday. The closest supplier just happens to be at mile 25 on the Racine bike course. Since I was up there, I decided to do some riding. I am pleased to report that the course is already well marked. Also the US Army Corps website reports the Racine water temp as 25C (77F), but my feet were painfully numb after standing in it for a few moments. My kids didn't seem to mind.

leh

Jul 2, 08 14:31

Post #43 of 48 (374 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [monty] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

And I guess you missed MY point as well. I hate beating a dead horse but I SUGGESTED that perhaps the leaders were just not really paying attention (head to head and facing a huge pothole at said missed turn) and then everyone blindly follows. I was leading the women's race and nobody made any changes to the course from the time the top guys went by till I went by yet somehow I managed to follow it. You were not there so do not know what actually happened. I believe this was the BEST marked course I have ever raced - it was ridiculous how many little orange arrows were spray painted on the road. It turns out it WAS painted in bright orange arrows as I could have sworn it was. ANd a taped arrow was also laid down as a back-up (I remember thinking that thing looked kind of funny as it was yellow instead of orange). The asst race director just confirmed this. You suggest a very good three pronged approach well they eventually met at least two of the prongs on the second lap and maybe all three (someone said there was also a sign but I don't recall that - good idea for next year if not though) and one or maybe two of the prongs on the first lap. The volunteer had not arrived yet so that prong WAS missing but there was a back-up. What surprises me is that there was not a lead motorcycle as at the pre-race meeting they said the top guy would have one but not the lead female (which put the onus upon me to be sure I knew the course). It IS really bad if the lead motorcycle was there and took the guys off course - THAT could cause MUCH confusion b/c even if they had learned the course they would be questioning it. Shannon did mention in the pre-race meeting that the only change to the course was at the 2nd turn-around so that could have caused much confusion. DOesn't sound like they had a lead motorcycle after all though.

Enough of this, time to enjoy this great weather and hope for less confusion at everyone's future races.

-leh

thenicetwin

Jul 2, 08 18:46

Post #44 of 48 (338 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [tridan111] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well put Daniel.

HFP did the following...

Do your best to mark the course(BTW way better than last year)
Publish a good and legible pre-race course map.
Post sign at noted split in race course.
Have lots of volunteers on the course.

Can problems happen? YES, life goes on. As Amanda noted..."it is our responsibility to know the course".

Had a great time, enjoyed the day and post race food etc. After the race YOU were the first one to congratulate me on a good job, thanks.
Bill

(This post was edited by THENICETWIN on Jul 2, 08 18:49)

qcassidy

Jul 3, 08 7:25

Post #45 of 48 (285 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [tridan111] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Daniel,
I agree with Mike C and others. Aside from the poor pavement, this was a great race. There were lots of arrows at each turn so even though I was riding in the rain, close to the front, and without anyone else in sight for the first lap, I had no problem following where to go. Additionally, the post race spread was awesome! Definitely MUCH better than the typical WTC 70.3 fare, so that was much appreciated. I especially liked the bags of trail mix; they were awesome. Thanks again for putting on a great race.

Andrew
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tridan111

Jul 3, 08 7:39

Post #46 of 48 (276 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [qcassidy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks to you all!
We do this, Because we love the sport , and you all Inspire -(so much i jumped in the race too, on 1.5 hrs sleep .and set up for 5 days and the AM was not easy..lol)... Shannon leads by a stellar example , I follow his lead!

Keep it up..and again, Thanks for your participation and positivity!
Congrats to all Finishers.... and especially to: Amanda and Daniel -2 awesome examples of class and talent
Daniel

USPro Tri

Jul 3, 08 12:55

Post #47 of 48 (237 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [leh] [In reply to]	Can't Post

FWIW here was DKT's take (from his website) may help clear up:

Off Course in Morgantown - Going off course sucks no matter how you look at it, but this trip ended up being a wasted weekend. It is the responsibility of an athlete to know the course, but racers do depend on signs to guide us around the course. Courses can change; maps aren�t always correct; race maps aren�t usually complete either, and reading street signs is difficult to do at speed. If you�re a local, racer from a previous year, or course designer, the way to go is obvious, obviously. However, it not obvious if you�re looking for an obvious sign, and there isn�t one.
Anyway, I went off course early during the bike leg, while in 2nd behind Andrew Yoder. Andrew was out of the water first and safely following the lead vehicle when I saw him at the first bike course turn-around. Coming back from the turn around, I anticipated a right hand corner from looking at the map, and I also expected it to be well marked as indicated at the race meeting. Unfortunately, it was marked with two non-visible arrows. I drove back out to the corner after the race to see if I was just an idiot. There was a faded orange arrow that was barely visible. It looked like it was from a previous event. There was also a horizontal strip of yellow tape, which I assume was part of an arrow. The point of the taped arrow was missing, and neither mark was visible to an approaching cyclist because of the downhill into the corner. Going into the corner, I sat up to look for marks because I was expecting to turn right. Then, I waited for the gentleman in 3rd place, who also missed the turn, so I could ask him if he saw anything. He though we should go straight, and I took another look back to see the 4th place man not make the turn as well. The guy in forth place eventually won the race, so he must have turn around shortly there after.
Despite missing a corner that potentially cost me $3500, I would recommend the Med Express Mountaineer Triathlon. The swim wasn�t bad, and the portion of the bike course I saw had pretty rural scenery. The run leg through town and trails looked good too. Morgantown is just a 1 hour 30 minute drive south from Pittsburg - an easy drive.
http://USProTri.com
US Professional Triathlete Team!

John Hirsch

Jul 4, 08 18:10

Post #48 of 48 (176 views)

Re: Who won the Morgantown HIM? [USPro Tri] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The pot hole where very well marked, and race directors cant do much about that. The swim and run were excellent.

I was having an AWEFUL day and was in the no mans land between most of the pro men, and the first females. As I came through that corner someone was running at me screaming which way to go. I missed it, but not by much. I think the women running at the corner sent people the right way shortly after that.

great race, see you next year.

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