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What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings?

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Large

Jul 8, 08 12:17

Post #1 of 83 (2679 views)

What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings?	Quote \| Reply

A few recent posts (Dara Torres and Dev's race report) as well as my own experiences, make me wonder what's behind the trend of athletes in their forties continuing to perform at world-class levels. I see this all the time at races when many of the top overall finishers are in their forties (which unfortunately is my AG).

Are we seeing the benefit of better nutrition and science, or is this simply the first generation that had enough interest and leisure time to do this sort of thing at this age? Is it a result of better physical training, or is it more of a mental issue, whereby some members of this generation continue to push themselves to new limits? Obviously, it's not any ONE of these things, but a combination, and I'd like to hear what others think.

Please DO NOT turn this into a PED thread. Thanks.

gleveq

Jul 8, 08 12:23

Post #2 of 83 (2665 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I don't know, but I would love to ask Ellen Hart, who ran a 1:31 at Buffalo Springs and finished in 4:57 or so, how she does it.

Of course, coming from a very high level running background helps, but.......damn, she's fast for an old lady! (only another old lady can get away with saying that)

G

It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

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M~

Jul 8, 08 12:27

Post #3 of 83 (2644 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I wonder if we are seeing the first little bits of the people who got into tris in the 80's (then in their 20's) with their MASSIVE bases come through the 40-50 age group ranks and tear up the little kids. I agree though, it is awesome watching these "older" guys tear up these courses.
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Large

Jul 8, 08 12:27

Post #4 of 83 (2643 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [gleveq] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Thanks. Your post reminds me of another "old lady" - Karen Smyers, who continues to kick butt. Not to mention Dave Scott's two comebacks in Hawaii. (Which I believe were his two most-impressive races.)

Someone posted a good NYT article on Dana Torres which said that sprint events (like the 50 and 100 free) can work to the advantage of older athletes, but I can think of many examples from endurance sports.

mmrocker13

Jul 8, 08 12:40

Post #5 of 83 (2587 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

A huge proportion of our female rock stars here are masters women. They hand us younguns our azzes on a daily basis.

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BMANX

Jul 8, 08 12:43

Post #6 of 83 (2579 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Huge base from years of training. Consistency in their training. A love for the sport that they are participating in. Working damn hard!

AERO & LIGHT is RIGHT

Cervelo SLC 5890g/12.98 lbs.

Allan

Jul 8, 08 12:53

Post #7 of 83 (2523 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

As a 40-something athlete that started as a runner and joined the triathlon ranks in 1990 I would guess that most of the 40-somethings that you see doing well are people that love the sport and have been at it a long time. I started the year that I graduated from university after a long competitive running career (started at age 11). Many of the people that I raced against 10 years ago are no longer on the scene racing. The ones that are still at it are, for the most part, pretty dedicated and focused on the sport. For longer races, the years of base far outweigh the decrease in sprint speed that comes with getting old so we "old guys" can hang in there with the fast 25 year olds that don't have 15-30 years of base like we do. When you see 40 year olds placing in the top 10 overall at races I don't think many of them are new triathletes that are getting into the sport to try something new.

devashish_paul

Jul 8, 08 13:10

Post #8 of 83 (2458 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

The funny thing is that at the Peterborough half Ironman, if you take out the pros, 40-44 took three out of the top 5 and we were missing the fastest 40-44's in the province at the race...the 40-44 guys that showed up were only the "B team".

first generation that had enough interest and leisure time to do this sort of thing at this age?

For me, this is the case. Clearly my parents had some genetic sporting capability, but as first generation immigrants to Canada, all they could think about was putting food on the table. Although they did lead a healthy life incorporating basic exercise, what I do today was not an option for them.

As others pointed out, many of us in 40-44 are now leveraging a giant base. I am competing in my 24th season of triathlon now and although my running is slower than my max youthful speed, the swim and bike times have not declined and actually improved to the point that they surpass the decline in run speed, netting faster overall times.

Here in Ottawa, we have a crazy fast network of masters athletes. I am serious when I say that the A team did not show up. Every workout I go to will have 3-8 other masters dudes ready to up the pace and beat the crap out of the rest. You literally have to taper for some group training, or be the whipping boy, or train solo....since I never taper except for racing, I either show up as whipping boy, or I train solo...but even training solo you get whipped...the moment you felt that you did 10x3 min @ <insert studly wattage here> or 10x800m@ <insert studly split here>, there is an email from one of the other guys saying that he did the same, but did it after a 4 hours of training in the morning etc etc.

....to put the Ontario/Quebec local Masters A team in perspective, we have guys like Pierre Lavoie, Dave Harju, Rick Hellard, Brian Keast, Barry Dmitruk, Allan Faulds and Tony O'Keeffe to name a few. Some like Dave still race pro, while others have been on Kona and IMNA Age group podiums....the rest of us....well we either lift our game to compete or serve as whipping/waterboy in training which I get to do with Rick tomorrow morning on the group ride and no one will give me a break on account of having doing a half Ironman in sub 4:30 3 days ago :-(

And to make matters worse, I get to be whipping boy for an entire 5 month winter XC ski race season, where most of the non national team top rank skiers are in 40+, many being ex Olympians now racing the masters circuit. And in XC skiing, there are just serious racers...there are not hundreds of participants to pad the field and make your results look good...the entire field is typically what we in triathlon call "FOP"

Dev

http://www.kestrelbicycles.com |http://www.infinitnutrition.ca |http://www.newtonrunning.com
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Aipaloovik

Jul 8, 08 14:23

Post #9 of 83 (2326 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Well, I think its different reasons for the world class performances as opposed to top AG performances. For the world class performances, like Torres, I can only assume that years of dedication and training has given a technique that is simply unmatched. I think it is fairly accepted (OK, it is by me at least) that the ability of the human body to produce power decreases with age, all other things being equal. That, in my mind leaves only a couple of options, technique, as I said earlier and desire. Call it heart, determination, will, whatever, to perform at that level they have more than their competitors. It was just a personal observation but it seemed to me that no other female competitor had the lean powerful body that Torres had. That says to me, more time in the gym, in the pool, dedicated to perfecting her craft than anyone else racing. Enough, obviously, to more than overcome any age gap.

I think that updated science and nutrition provides a minimal difference at that level. My reason for this opinion is simply that the younger competitors have access to the same nutrition, training, science, etc and yet they are out performed. The difference I think it does provide is in prolonging peak performance levels, or at least slowing somewhat the loss of power potential with age.

More specific to top performing AG competitors, I think this comes from a combination of everything you have listed. Better nutrition knowledge, more leisure time and money to invest into sport, attitudes have changed over the years as to what �old� is in terms of age and ability, etc. There is also a large group of people that got active years ago and have never given it up. This I think mainly falls into changing attitudes back in the 70s and 80s. This leads to a better base, better and more refined technique and a host of other benefits.

devashish_paul

Jul 8, 08 14:32

Post #10 of 83 (2300 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Aipaloovik] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Oh yeah....for age group tris, 40 somethings usually have much better tactics and execution than 20-30 somethings.

I watch it all the time at races....young strong guys charging up hills likely pushing 400W momentarily and not knowing it...then they start falling off after doing this 10 or 20 times, but they chase their ideal bike split dreams and even though they charge into T2 with great times, the game is over....T2 ends up being 2 min plus while the 40 year guys are in and out well under a minute (you know how hard it is to save 60 seconds off a half marathon...that's 4+ seconds per mile....), then the young guy who is shelled charges out of T2 like it is a sprint, while the 40 something settles into a sustainable pace....soon, the 40 something is ahead...by the end fo the race he is 10-20 minutes ahead :-(

Everyone has a full tank and a good engine on race day...its about how you use the tank with your engine. The 40 somethings usually respect the fact that they can't use afterburners in the first quarter of the race without depleting the tank long before the finish line:-). The young guys might have bigger engines, but their fuel injection system uses up too much fuel at the wrong times in the race :-(...as we know from the fuel pumps its all about maximizing gas mileage :-)

Allan

Jul 8, 08 14:52

Post #11 of 83 (2247 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [devashish_paul] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

That's why I swim so slowly Dev, it has nothing to do with my ability, I'm just maximizing my "gas mileage" :)

psiabum

Jul 8, 08 14:58

Post #12 of 83 (2232 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Good question - as I'm now in the 40 age group...wonder if its really aerobic base or purely smart training or something else...?

Why I'm also curious about the question is that I didn't start doing anything until age 36 (at 235 pounds, even), and keep PRing. Of course, I'm now sitting between 150 and 155#, so that obviously helps. Data includes my first real attempt at running a 10k was 54:13 in 2005. Ran one last year at 43:09. 5k time two years ago was 23:change. Last Friday on a hilly 5k was 19:49. Bike also keeps getting faster, though I discount it a lot due to varying factors such as heat or wind, even though exact same courses.

There has to be something else going on in addition to a huge aerobic base built over many years....I have noticed I tend to PR the day after drinking a couple margaritas and a black bean burrito at the local mexican place - thought of it as pure superstition, though!

Be interested in more theories.

dave_w

Jul 8, 08 15:14

Post #13 of 83 (2197 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Allan] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

In Reply To:

That's why I swim so slowly Dev, it has nothing to do with my ability, I'm just maximizing my "gas mileage" :)

I swim slowly just to keep the "well if I could swim..." card. I can always pull that one when performance talk starts. ;)

lunchbox

Jul 8, 08 15:21

Post #14 of 83 (2172 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I think it's the base- a lifetime of health and fitness does the job. Personally, it gives me a lot of hope- I'm 31, and it looks like there will be a good 10 fast years yet! FWIW, I think Ned Overend and Tinker Juarez may have been some of the 1st to destroy everyone in their 40's.
******************************
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devashish_paul

Jul 8, 08 15:26

Post #15 of 83 (2159 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Allan] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

No, there is something to be said about slightly "sandbagging the swim"....did you even notice that when you kill the swim and fly into T1, you run out of gas earlier than the finish line? I know I do. I have to make an effort to throttle back my already lame swim by finding a draft within 500m...if I can't, then I tuck in behind someone of the same ability as me...this means a slow swim time, but good usuage of the gas tank. Either way, I only get 500m of hammering in the swim...after that, I get on some fast feet, or if I got beat up at the swim start, I get on slow feet. Very rare that I will pull clear water for the entire swim...at my speed, it makes no sense.

Little Mike

Jul 8, 08 15:29

Post #16 of 83 (2147 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I can imagine being in your 40s and having 20 years of experience/training on a 20 year old can make you a better athlete.

Fleck

Jul 8, 08 16:13

Post #17 of 83 (2085 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings?

- Experience
- Huge aerobic base
- No-nonsense training
- Training based on the fundementals and not wild theories or fancy toys
- Lots of race experience
- Depending on other factors/circumstances - more time to train, but for others less to train, but still doing well

Steve Fleck
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h2ofun

Jul 8, 08 16:16

Post #18 of 83 (2071 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [devashish_paul] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Dev, that must be why I do so poorly. I 99% of the time pull clear water the entire swim. :o(

Dave
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willyp

Jul 8, 08 16:53

Post #19 of 83 (2036 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [devashish_paul] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

awesome!! older = faster and over forty = unstoppable. i'm 37 and haven't been this excited for my next three birthdays since before i had my driver's license!!

btw - adding to the collective databank - during my last tri, lk stevens 70.3, as a 37 yr old male i was passed on the bike almost exclusively by 40+ men and on the run by 40+ men and 30+ women. i was 23/112 - 20.5% - in 35-39 group and would have been 25/111 - 22.5% - in 40-44 group.

regarding 'gas in the tank' philosophy - there was a tritalk podcast recently in which david warden discussed the notion of reducing relative effort at the beginning of the race. he cited some studies showing that nearly all record performances in mid to endurance distance competitions were done as negative splits, and suggested that tri's should be done as negative splits as well - increasing relative effort throughout the events to avoid prolonged buildup of lactic acid, etc... at any rate, i used this approach in my most recent half im and improved six minutes from previous best time (5:15 to 5:09). greatly improved my transitions and knocked a couple minutes off my run as well. could be something to it.... or maybe it's just that i'm another year closer to being a forty-something!!

Trieatalot

Jul 8, 08 16:55

Post #20 of 83 (2033 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

A few years ago when I turned 40, a good friend told me to expect to set lifetime PRs in my events during my 40's. I thought he was kidding me until he told me he set all his running PRs including a 3:56 mile between the ages of 43-44 after being a competitive runner all his life. I've started to have some podium success this year after almost 10 years of racing despite less time to train. I think it comes down to base and experience. I don't waste workouts anymore. I do not have many "junk" miles and I am more relaxed before, during, and after races allowing me to focus better.

h2ofun

Jul 8, 08 16:58

Post #21 of 83 (2027 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Trieatalot] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Yep, for folks who think you can get older and it gets easier, not from what I have seen yet. Maybe when I am 70.

Dave
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roady

Jul 8, 08 17:06

Post #22 of 83 (2007 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Trieatalot] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

In Reply To:

I've started to have some podium success this year after almost 10 years of racing despite less time to train. I think it comes down to base and experience. I don't waste workouts anymore. I do not have many "junk" miles and I am more relaxed before, during, and after races allowing me to focus better.

What makes you think it's the 'base'? Maybe it's that you aren't doing the junk miles, aren't doing wasted workouts, and are better-focused. I wonder if you'd have have the same successes earlier by training in that manner at an earlier age?

SlayerHatebreed

Jul 8, 08 17:58

Post #23 of 83 (1948 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned it but improvement in 40's sometimes is a result of more free time to train (due to) a nice bank account (due to) working ass off for the previous 20 years building a business or putting in time as a doctor, lawyer, etc.

Jeff Vader

Jul 8, 08 18:50

Post #24 of 83 (1888 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

In Reply To:

This is sooo true. To be able to do so well at the worlds toughest sport at such an advanced age is marvelous. I just turned 27 and would like to be so good in another 12 years when I am fourty.

ttram

Jul 8, 08 18:56

Post #25 of 83 (1874 views)

Re: What's up with the high-level performance of forty-somethings? [Large] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

This is great news for me on two fronts: Being 44, I can say that my placings are better than I thought given the relative strength of the AG. I can also say that though I was a HS and College athlete (Lacrosse and soccer), and I continued to play one or the other or both until a few years ago when I started Tris, I have both "young legs" and nowhere to go but up. So, when you current 40-49 guys are dropping off at 50+, I will be peaking! SUPER! Just 5 more years of getting my a$$ handed to me until the tables turn... ;)

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