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Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP)

Keyser_Soze

Oct 2, 08 14:32

Post #1 of 23 (428 views)

Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP)	Can't Post

So a friend lent me their wireless PT for the week and I am trying to determine about what % of FTP I should ride a hilly century. It has about 8000' of climbing and I only need to drive home.

I did a WAG outdoor test of FTP this afternoon and came up with ~290-300 as my FTP. Would 75-80% of this number be about right for a century? I've read that IM power should be 65-75% of FTP.

Being new to power - I would assume it is also better to pace the ride based on actual watts (while keeping an eye on average watts from time to time) - is this correct?

I'll get to do a more "formal" FTP test on Monday.

Thanks in advance.

pjcampbell

Oct 2, 08 14:39

Post #2 of 23 (422 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Keyser_Soze] [In reply to]	Can't Post

What is your training like for long rides? 60, 70, 80 miles...?

If you can do 300 for 1 hour (I don't really know what a WAG test is), and can do the century in what, 5.5 hours?
Assuming this is a self paced ride:

225 for 5.5 hours would be EXCELLENT
195 for 5.5 hours would be very strong IMO, like a cat3 rider who has a lot of endurance and I think fairly realistic if your true FTP is indeed 300 but by no means a cake ride.

I would aim at around 195 and see how you feel after 3 hours.

195 doesn't particularly sound like any impressive amount of power, but 5+ hours is a huge amount of time.

(This post was edited by pjcampbell on Oct 2, 08 14:41)

ErnieK

Oct 2, 08 14:57

Post #3 of 23 (403 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Keyser_Soze] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I've done a century around here with 9000' climbing. I think 6.5hrs would be a more realistic time. With a 290w FTP, I climbed at 210-230 range and think I averaged about 190 or so for the ride. On any century, you don't want to overdo it near the beginning - E

grimpeur

Oct 2, 08 15:10

Post #4 of 23 (397 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [pjcampbell] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have a SRM. I completed Ironman Switzerland, which is hilly in 5:38 and average power was 194. I try to maintain an average of 225 watts. This is about 75%-80% of my FTP. The average may have been lowered by the longer down hills vs. the shorter steeper climbs.

walnutcreek tri

Oct 2, 08 15:11

Post #5 of 23 (396 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Keyser_Soze] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Why is it everyone thinks their FTP is around 300w? If yours truly is and want to perform to the best of your abilities assuming you have some endurance, then you should be able to pull off around 230-240w for a stand alone century especially with all the coasting you'll be doing. Heck, you should be at a 220w average for the IM bike leg so 240w should be a piece of cake.

Keyser_Soze

Oct 2, 08 15:11

Post #6 of 23 (395 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [pjcampbell] [In reply to]	Can't Post

wag - wild a$$ guess

Training has been solid up to the 70 mile range. I did a century (1500' of climbing) on my road bike 6 weeks ago in 4:50. I already know the last 20 miles are going to suck this time around.

190-200 watts is what I was thinking. I'll probably start around 190 and see if I can build from that.

I am thinking 5:45-6:00 ride time. I did it a few years back and came in around 6:30 - but that was just a few weeks post IM.

The route is nothing but rollers (1/4mile at the most but some are in the 15-18% range) What type of wattage spike should I aim for on these hills?

Keyser_Soze

Oct 2, 08 15:17

Post #7 of 23 (386 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [walnutcreek tri] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I rode for 60 minutes this afternoon a couple beats less than LT HR (I can hold this HR for about 2:45-3 hours) and my average watts were 244. This included a few minutes of riding around the neighborhoood trying to "reset" the thing...and some stop and go traffic.

FWIW - my average HR today was 148 and my recent 40k TT hr average was 166.

What would you estimate my FTP at?

At least I didn't say it was 400! Oh - and I haven't ran 400's in a while but I can surely knock out at least 1 70 second lap...

pjcampbell

Oct 2, 08 15:23

Post #8 of 23 (381 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Keyser_Soze] [In reply to]	Can't Post

walnut, i sense some sarcasm but a CP60 of 300 watts does not necessarily mean a CP-5-hours of neither 220 nor 240, or even close.

Youre right 8000 feet is a lot of climbing and 6 hours may be more realistic.
Definitely stay on the low end to begin with.

Diesel

Oct 2, 08 15:24

Post #9 of 23 (381 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Keyser_Soze] [In reply to]	Can't Post

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=1811621#1811621

walnutcreek tri

Oct 2, 08 15:51

Post #10 of 23 (370 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [pjcampbell] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm aware that time is a factor in the calculation (and there was a little sarcasm there) however we're not talking 100 miles in a triathlon. If it's an all out, "I couldn't run afterwards if I tried" scenario, then the formula is different. If it's a cycling only event then I assume there would be drafting so your time line may be off. I would guess you'd be closer to 5 hours at 240w with a decent group of guys.

If I can ride 220w for 5+ hours in an IM w/4,000ft of climbing, I've got to believe with drafting and no marathon you can ride 100 miles w/ 8,000 at 240w. Plenty of recovery time with that much climbing.

Someone's probably got some math on this and I would be interested in seeing the numbers as a cyclist and not as a triathlete. That's a good link above and lakerfan is king. I'll have to read it more later.

(This post was edited by walnutcreek tri on Oct 2, 08 15:53)

pjcampbell

Oct 2, 08 16:05

Post #11 of 23 (361 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [walnutcreek tri] [In reply to]	Can't Post

220 actual avg watts (not normalized) for 5 hours alone, let alone within the middle of an IronMan is very impressive. Being an Iron person, I am guessing your power levels are skewed towards longer duration. I would say many cat3 cyclists with a FTP of ~300 would have a tough time doing even 200 for 5 hours standalone, not to mention smacked in between some other very tough races!!!

I'm guessing the thing about cyclists is that they need to give up some of this endurance for the ability to respond to attacks. For example last year I was a 305, if not a little more, FTP guy, could do 240 @ 3.5 hours and pretty sure not many cat3 guys could do that, but was a pretty lousy racer. This year FTP 290 (as tested by a 54 minute race @293 actual) much better 30 second-10 minute power. Next year I'm giving this up to go back to riding at my own pace and try to do some tri's.

I am 100% new to tri's - where does this kind of result put you in the overall?

(This post was edited by pjcampbell on Oct 2, 08 16:11)

MarkyV

Oct 2, 08 16:11

Post #12 of 23 (352 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [walnutcreek tri] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Alex Simmons did some statistical work on this for cycling only and it's posted somewhere over on the wattage forum.
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walnutcreek tri

Oct 2, 08 16:23

Post #13 of 23 (346 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [pjcampbell] [In reply to]	Can't Post

where does this kind of result put you in the overall?

Really depends upon on the distance and your running abilities. At the longer distances with my average swim, I'm usually with the pro women by the end of the bike and then the foot race will just depend on how much running I've done. In a 1/2, if I've done the training, a 1:30 run has me near the front of my AG (and an occasional AG win). In a full, I just haven't been able to put it together running that distance and it's been an execution problem on my part but if I just ran to my capability it would be around 10hrs instead of the 10:30 I've done. I've only done a few fulls though and experience at that distance is a bitch (for many reasons: $, time, recovery).

(This post was edited by walnutcreek tri on Oct 2, 08 16:25)

jaretj

Oct 2, 08 17:50

Post #14 of 23 (318 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Keyser_Soze] [In reply to]	Can't Post

If I had a FTP of 300 I would ride the climbs near or just over that depending on how long they were. Ride the flats around 240 and coast the downhills.

About 80 miles into the ride I would make an adjustment up or down depending on how I felt.

jaretj

http://jaretj.blogspot.com

grimpeur

Oct 2, 08 18:00

Post #15 of 23 (314 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [walnutcreek tri] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think we need to realize the difference in required power output in mass start events and an Ironman distance race. IM requires a steady output saving enough strength to have a successful run. In a mass start event, the lower average power the better. This means you sat in, used the draft and pedaled less, saving you efforts as mentioned earlier to cover break aways or sprints. More than likely, the only sprint in a century ride will be at the end. On a climb, there will be no real advantage of drafting so you must ride at your own pace (power output), recover at the top and use your strength on the descent to catch back up to the pack if you get dropped. Must people don't push the descents hard enough and ride at a power output much lower than they are capable of. Once back on, start the cycle again: sit in, used the draft, pedal less. I read an article that said in winning the Tour, Lance pedal the least of everyone. If you watched any of his wins, he would always wait for the critical moment on the last climb and release all the power he saved up by: sitting in, using the draft and pedaling less.

TiDriver

Oct 2, 08 20:43

Post #16 of 23 (271 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Keyser_Soze] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Don't know if it'll help, but here are a few stats...

Racine 1/2 IM - average power 252 W. 2:19
IM Canada - average power 211 W; 5:19

Actual LT - determined by blood draw testing 3 weeks ago = 260 W

Power numbers were determined by straight average power via SRM for race, CT for LT test.

For a hilly century with no run afterward, I'd shoot for a AP of at least 225 W if I was with a strong group of at least 3-5 that was willing to share the load.
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Pantelones

Oct 2, 08 21:10

Post #17 of 23 (267 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Keyser_Soze] [In reply to]	Can't Post

If you are going to be riding in a pack and doing some hard climbing throughout the ride I can tell you that your AP/NP are going to be pretty far apart. Since you have not trained much on a power meter it is going to be hard for you to use the PM as the tool that it is.

That said:
IF you are going to do the century solo (no drafting or large coasting)
IF your FTP is actually 300w

Then you should probably be able too:
Hold 220-230 steady on the climbs
Hold 200 watts everywhere else

And finish without being too wiped.

Please post your results after your ride!

lakerfan

Oct 2, 08 23:52

Post #18 of 23 (244 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Keyser_Soze] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree with jaretj but you might want to take it a little easier in the hills if there's 8K of climbing. Flats are fine at ~240w. Actually, shoot for 280w in the hills and 240w in the flats for the first 60 or so miles and then see how you feel. If you feel good then kick it up a bit.

If you can't easily pull off an IF of at least .80 for a century then you're FTP isn't 300w. I've done .80 IFs for long training rides (~100 miles). It's very rare but I've done them and that's just a hard training ride, not a race.

Thanks, Chris

Keyser_Soze

Oct 6, 08 9:54

Post #19 of 23 (173 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Pantelones] [In reply to]	Can't Post

For those interested:

I rode at an average of 196 watts for a total time of 5:40. This was all solo. Not having a ride longer than 75 miles in the past two years came into affect late in the ride - but I finished feeling good. I played in pretty conservative all day. I few items I found interesting:

240 on the flats (which were not many) was just about right.

Holding anything under 350+ on the steeper hills seemed impossible. Is this OK? Any less power and it seemed I should have just got off the bike and walked. Grades varied from 5% to 20%.

My average cadence was 70...ouch!

callidus

Oct 6, 08 10:05

Post #20 of 23 (164 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Keyser_Soze] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I did a 175km ride/race with 17'400ft of elevation gain spread out over 4 main mountain passes here in Switzerland. FTP around 250W and I aimed to climb around 200-210W.

For the four passes I hit the following:
1st:212W NP
2nd: 212W NP
3rd: 210W NP
4th: 213W NP

All climbs took between 70-120mins. NP for whole ride was 199W for 8:45hrs. It hurt toward the end no doubt.

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remnfa

Oct 6, 08 11:55

Post #21 of 23 (124 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Keyser_Soze] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Personally, I think that if you are new to power training you just should tape over your display and just ride by feel for this century. You will probably get more out of reading the file after the fact than you would by setting a target wattage for 5 hours.

Once you know exactly where you are you can predict a target pace more accurately, but I would use this ride to get a good file to analyze.

triguy42

Oct 6, 08 12:01

Post #22 of 23 (121 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [Keyser_Soze] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sounds like you might have been significantly under-geared for hills like that. I did the GFT twice with my Ergomo before it died, and with the exception of the bottom section of Sugarloaf (18% grade) I never went above 300W. I think lakerfan had it right, plan on riding up hills at 90-95% of FTP at most. Anything more is going to hurt you enough that your average will suffer and avg speed will also suffer. I rode last year at 220W on an FTP of 315W and felt okay off the bike (I still suck at running so nothing much is going to help or hurt that!). I probably could have used another gear (40/23 was max) to try to keep my max output on Sugarloaf lower, but yeah going up the hill at 7mph sure feels like you might as well walk!

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Alex Simmons

Oct 6, 08 19:21

Post #23 of 23 (76 views)

Re: Wattage goal for hilly century (% of FTP) [MarkyV] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Alex Simmons did some statistical work on this for cycling only and it's posted somewhere over on the wattage forum.

I wouldn't call it statistical work, more an analysis of the pacing of timed cycling events and a discussion on optimising time through better pacing.

I have a model designed to provide strategic pacing advice, based on an assumptions of FTP and what IF you are capable of for the expected duration. For IM type events, I would use a TSS constraint instead as previously suggested by Rick Ashburn (sp?) since you are not seeking to ride the bike leg maximally (as you are in bike races/timed events).

My most recent long enduro client had the following Intensity Factor (Normalised Power as % of FTP) for longer training rides:

4-4.5 hrs: 0.83 - 0.86
5.0 hrs: 0.82
6.0 hrs: 0.78
And for his target event (a hilly sportive through the French Alps):
7.8 hrs: 0.76

for the latter, altitude needs to be taken into account on the higher passes.
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