Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C

Calendar Retailers Stack & Reach Custom Geometry Calculator (beta) More To Come...
		MAIN INDEX	RULES & LEGEND	LOG IN

Search for (options)

Newsletter Signup

Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C

1 2 3 4

View All

ShawnF

Oct 9, 07 20:18

Post #1 of 236 (9156 views)

Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C	Can't Post

Well, according to a very simple graph that Chris Lieto posted on his Kona blog.

http://lietokonadiaries.blogspot.com/

shawn

Rappstar

Oct 9, 07 20:40

Post #2 of 236 (9079 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [ShawnF] [In reply to]	Can't Post

As a TTX rider, this is nice to see. However, without ANY configuration data, it's less useful. I.e., you don't know what bottles were or were not on the frame. What wheels, etc. I hope he provides some more info. Otherwise, it's just marketing speak, as much as I'd like to stand up and shout "yes." The TTX is a very well designed, very well executed frame. I think at the very least, you can take away that it is among the very best frames in the world. I think there is a clear group of frames at the top, and the TTX and P3C are both part. The Scott Plasma, it appears, is not. Based on a very cursory inspection of the downtube and headtube of all thread bikes, I will say that it doesn't surprise me a whole lot. There are some very simple, very fundamental rules of aerodynamics that you need to follow. If you follow them, you'll do well. Some companies do this in house with CFD and lots of windtunnel testing. Others do it by just copying the tubes of the companies that spend that money. And others still don't, for whatever reason, do this at all, something which I fail to understand.

devashish_paul

Oct 9, 07 20:49

Post #3 of 236 (9042 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey Rappstar, how much will the way the rider's body affecting the airflow change the raw bike's aerodynamics. I'd imagine that is completely possible that riding knees in vs knees apart could affect the relative benefits of a P3C type cutout vs some other bike. Also, if I recall correctly, John Cobb once showed that when riding a softride it was better to go downhill in a tuck with your knees actually clamped to the top tube/beam but instead apart. The idea was that the air could reattack better behind the legs when apart than when together touching the top tube. Of course, this would not apply to a conventional bike, however it goes to show that rider position and style might also affect the aero benefits from one bike vs another, adding to or negating a particular bike's positive qualities?

NextMerckx

Oct 9, 07 21:04

Post #4 of 236 (9013 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [ShawnF] [In reply to]	Can't Post

haha sweet, my Madone is only ~50g less aero than a Scott Plasma.

Rappstar

Oct 9, 07 21:11

Post #5 of 236 (8994 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [devashish paul] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

It's certainly possible. I'm definitely not any sort of authority of rider/frame aerodynamics (frame aerodynamics are governed much more by the fundamentals of aerodynamics, whereas the rider/frame interaction is something where there is no real substitute for just going to the tunnel). But things could certainly be affected. For instance, Lieto rides very slack, so perhaps his legs are in a different position relative to the seattube than say Dave Zabriskie's on the P3C, where Dave is sitting way on the nose of the saddle. So this might, as a total guess, affect the airflow around the seattube, which might reduce some of the effectiveness of the P3C's shape there. If you go by the theory that the P3C is designed to be ridden steep, I'd also be willing to give Gerard the benefit of the doubt that they focused on the aerodynamics of a rider in such a position. I can imagine, though I want to emphasize that this is total guessing, that if the P3C is optimized geometrically for steep riding, it may also be optimized aerodynamically. The Trek is also designed to be ridden steep, but perhaps not to quite the same extent, so perhaps the aerodynamics of the frame work better with someone who rides slack. The geometries are close, but not identical, so it's certainly reasonable, I think, to infer that there may be a "right bike" for a rider based on fit, and then furthermore based on aerodynamics. I.e., if you know that 4 or 5 of 10 high-end bikes work with your position geometrically, you might further be able to refine that number down with windtunnel testing to the one or two bike(s) that are basically a perfect match. I believe they did this with David Millar's (tainted) World TT win. They built the bike entirely around him, both in terms of geometry, and in terms of tuning the aerodynamics around his position (at least, that is how I interpreted the article I read on the project).

devashish_paul

Oct 9, 07 21:18

Post #6 of 236 (8978 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks, I just wanted the aero gurus to confirm that rider position on an aero bike can affect the "aero contribution" of the bike itself.

I'm taking a wild shot here, but I'd wager to guess that the further apart your knees are, the more the benefit of the aero cut. Bring the knees in and there is no laminar air hitting the aero cutout, however, you are punching a smaller aggregate hole in the wind, so overall Cda might be better even though contribution for the aero cutout is now substantially reduced. Just a guess.

Dev

Record10Carbon

Oct 9, 07 21:39

Post #7 of 236 (8929 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [devashish paul] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Number one...will you all please stop letting science get in the way of our purchases!

Second...I am willing to bet that the person to win Kona will be the one who is most fit...no matter what bike they ride....

Three...golly jeepers I hope it is Pink!
---------------------------------------------------------
Fueled by Hammer

Need a bike? Get a Grip!

RockMan Half Iron Triathlon

IRONLOBO

Oct 9, 07 21:41

Post #8 of 236 (8921 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Record10Carbon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree, that being said, wh was the world TT champs won on a p3c???? :)

In Reply To

Hamner

Oct 9, 07 21:50

Post #9 of 236 (8905 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [ShawnF] [In reply to]	Can't Post

With the P3C, TTX, BMC, or DA how much are they just splitting hairs as to which is the fastest bike? Intentionally omitted Specialized, Ordu, new Slice, Willier since they are very new designs and haven't seen any data or anecdotal evidence on them. Walser could probably be added but was not because to the best of my knowledge is not a mass production design ( Is mass production of a niche market a real term?)

Also, you seem to know a few people, is the Bontrager bottle on the front of Lieto's bike a one off, pre-production, test, Dremel-mod?
---------------------------------------------------

Momma's gonna make all of your nightmares come true.

Bavarian_Frank

Oct 10, 07 1:26

Post #10 of 236 (8751 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Record10Carbon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Second...I am willing to bet that the person to win Kona will be the one who is most fit...no matter what bike they ride....

Really!?!

So you suggest that I might benefit more from better/harder/smarter training than from buying "fast" bikes?
Why wasn't that absolute brand-new never-heard-before information available earlier in my triathlon life?
That would have saved me buying all those expensive bikes.

Frank

Born to triathlon. Forced to work.

rmur

Oct 10, 07 5:51

Post #11 of 236 (8478 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

this article states the data is from a wind tunnel test of Levi Leipheimer on Feb. 26th, 2007.

http://www.bikeradar.com/...x-99-ssl-12746?img=2

Low Speed Wind Tunnel test figures based on Levi Leipheimer's February 26, 2007 wind tunnel run (Trek�.)

--------------------
rmur

artmus

Oct 10, 07 6:03

Post #12 of 236 (8437 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Hamner] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

The bottle and cage are both available now. I can't tell if that is a new cage designed to be bar mounted, or if it is a custom fit...

In any event, it looks pretty cool!
______________________________________________
DING DING!! Artmus speaks the truth!

100 miles a day is the only power meter you need.

my job
www.handlebarscc.com
www.myspace.com/handlebarscc

my clubs
www.myspace.com/nckrs
www.wnymba.org
www.wnymbro.com

T3

Oct 10, 07 7:04

Post #13 of 236 (8315 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [ShawnF] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The stats are not for the TTX, but rather the new TTX SSL. Levi and company looked pretty good on them on the way to Paris. Chris has one too. Not many other people, unless it says prototype on it. The SSL has 300 grams less frame weight than the 9.9 TTX. That's pretty good fine tuning of a proven fast product. It is hard to get one though, and the price reflects that the Waterloo factory is not going to make many. But it does show me that the 800 lb. gorilla in cycling is not resting. When Porsche finishes up a model year production run, the marketing dept. throws all kinds of horsepower and performance specials into a special "S' model to enhance the brand status and give the company engineers a chance to show their stuff when startup model costs have long been paid for. I think Trek is not betting on a $8200 bike to add to their bottom line, but has created a flagship to help TTX 9 series sales late in their production run. They are great bikes, backed by a company that stands behind it's product. I wish Chris the best in Kona, and I am rooting for him and Trek.

------------------
"Nothing reveals so much about us as how we play the games we play". Q
******************************************
2008: IMAZ, St A's, X-Caloosahatchie, Naples Sprint, Eagleman, NJ State, TimberMan, War at The Shore, Muskoka

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 7:26

Post #14 of 236 (8242 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [ShawnF] [In reply to]	Can't Post

These data remind me of Gerard's comment that "we're always happy to finish 2nd in tests paid for by other manufacturers". :-)

tuneoutthenoise

Oct 10, 07 7:38

Post #15 of 236 (8202 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [ShawnF] [In reply to]	Can't Post

To say a bike is fast is to imply the bike propels itself, which is absurd.

NEXT!

Tom A.

Oct 10, 07 7:40

Post #16 of 236 (8190 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [T3] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

The stats are not for the TTX, but rather the new TTX SSL.

Ummm...aerodynamically speaking (i.e. the "stats" shown in that plot), the TTX and TTX SSL will be identical.

Large

Oct 10, 07 7:43

Post #17 of 236 (8172 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [synchronicity] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm constantly amazed at the resiliency of these threads on ST. Bottom line: the difference in aero performance of the top bikes is negligible, and more than canceled out by body position and/or the strength of the rider. So why must we continue to post wind tunnel tests, charts graphs, etc. when it really doesn't matter? Is it because it's the off-season?

bootsie_cat

Oct 10, 07 7:49

Post #18 of 236 (8146 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [T3] [In reply to]	Can't Post

300 grams less for the frame? Frame was not really heavy to begon with. As I recall a little over 1400 grams. But the 660 gram fork??? Did they do anything about that?

Tom A.

Oct 10, 07 7:54

Post #19 of 236 (8116 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Large] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

IMO, it's because doing well in timed cycling events ( i.e. TTs or Tri bike legs) is ALL about attention to a BUNCH of little details. This is one of those details. It's up to the person looking at the numbers to decide if they are significant enough to worry about. They, and they alone, get to decide if it "matters".

Personally, I'm constantly amazed at how many people think that none of this stuff "matters" ;-)

Tom Demerly

Oct 10, 07 8:12

Post #20 of 236 (8055 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [ShawnF] [In reply to]	Can't Post

So many variables in something like this that the information needs a lot of qualification- for either manufacturer.

One of the predominant factors is selecting a bike a rider can acheive an aerodynamic and efficient (watts vs. heart rate, etc) on. Then there are the variables of comfort and what affect that may/may not exert on the riders real performance on the road. A bike can be more efficient and more aerodynamic but if a rider is distracted by saddle discomfort by something as simple as a poor saddle choice that is likely to cost them time when they don't even realize it.

It concerns me when people try to grasp at informational straws like "which bike is more aero- here's a cool computer generated graph that "proves" it".

For us real people, the people on the sales floor selling and buying the bikes, it is key to remember a few things:

If you don't feel comfortable on the bike, it will be difficult to focus on remaining still and putting in a good effort.
When we are grinding up a steep hill at the local triathlon or on the bike course at Lake Placid, Wisconsin, Wildflower, St. Croix or whereever and going 9 m.p.h. with our hands on the base bars seated upright trying to save a few precious seconds on a climg aerodynamics is a greatly diminished factor: Other issues like fit, frame stiffness, crank and component selection, pedal set up, tire choice become more important concerns in the real world.
We don't have wind tunnels to develop the optimal position, so what is the easiest bike to get a resonable position that is a good mix of aerodynamic, comfort, power and with good bike handling? That answer may vary from person to person contingent on size, dimensions, riding style, level of experience and fitness.

So many things go into what makes a bike optimal for a given individual. No one truly understands how all the variables interact. fixating on one aspect of the bike's performance (aerodynamics in this case) is an interesting and worthwhile discussion, but one that should be kept in perspective against the other factors that influence the performance of the bike/rider package.

Take a look at the Slowtwitch Classifieds for ST exclusive discounts and sales.

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/
(NOTE: This poster owns a retail business selling triathlon related products).

Large

Oct 10, 07 8:21

Post #21 of 236 (8020 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Personally, I'm constantly amazed at how many people think that none of this stuff "matters" ;-)

It's not that none of this stuff matters, it's that there is a point of diminishing returns. Once you get into the 5 or so most aero bikes, the difference between the aerodynamics of the frames is less important than whether someone rides with their knees inward or outward, etc. At that point, whether one riderless frame does .2% better in a wind tunnel (or other test) than the other is essentially meaningless.

smtyrrell99

Oct 10, 07 8:33

Post #22 of 236 (7976 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Large] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It happens with all equipment based hobbies, part of the fun.

I remember reading years ago about a car race series. You had to buy a specific car and couldn't do any modiifications. You could take apart the car and do anything you wanted as long as the original parts met the manufacturers original specs for that part. One team consistently dominated year in year out, with different drivers. This was also the team owned by a machine shop owner who put 1000s of hours in to rebuilding the car. Every part was lightened to the bottom of the acceptable limit, polished balanced etc. Nothing they did was a big deal on any 1 part, but it all adds up.

Take the second most aero bike with the second best rolling tires, the second most aero wheels, the second heaviest drivetrain, the second fastest wet suit, second lightest shoes, etc and race against someone with the fastest / best of everything and, assuming you are relatively well matched, I know who I'm betting on.

Of course its not going to turn a mid pack ito a top tier guy.

Styrrell

roady

Oct 10, 07 8:58

Post #23 of 236 (7903 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Spoken like a real 'watt trader', Tom.....

Is it just me, or do those drag numbers not add up for a 130lb TT specialist??

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 9:01

Post #24 of 236 (7888 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Large] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

the difference in aero performance of the top bikes is negligible, and more than canceled out by body position and/or the strength of the rider. So why must we continue to post wind tunnel tests, charts graphs, etc.

Aside from "the devil is in the details" argument, there's also the fact that we wouldn't know that the differences between the very best aero bikes are quite small if the data were never shared.

jens

Oct 10, 07 9:07

Post #25 of 236 (7865 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [smtyrrell99] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

It happens with all equipment based hobbies, part of the fun. . . . .

Thousands of years ago, when our species was still evolving, obsessive and persistent acquisition of the very best weaponry (spears, clubs, arrows, etc.) was a trait that had tremendous survival value. For example, with a slightly improved spear, you could overwhelm an otherwise vastly superior foe, armed with the old, non-dimpled spear. So this trait was honed and bred into us through natural selection. Thus, in modern-day sport (i.e. sublimated warfare), it's only natural for us to hew to this strongly imprinted trait.

-jens

(This post was edited by jens on Oct 10, 07 9:08)

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 9:12

Post #26 of 236 (5312 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [jens] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Or as my friend Brian Parr once laconically put it: "if we weren't doing this (racing bikes) we'd be off in the woods beating on each other with sticks and rocks."

rmur

Oct 10, 07 9:17

Post #27 of 236 (5306 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [roady] [In reply to]	Can't Post

the drag/speed numbers imply a Cda around 0.245-0.255. For a small guy like Levi that's surprisingly large. Perhaps he ought to hire Jens/Tom/AC as consultants :-)

If the numbers have been 'adjusted' to protect his true data that should have been stated ...

Something does not quite compute ... else my spreadsheet is just way off.
--------------------
rmur

Tom A.

Oct 10, 07 9:28

Post #28 of 236 (5291 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [roady] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Spoken like a real 'watt trader', Tom.....

Is it just me, or do those drag numbers not add up for a 130lb TT specialist??

Yeah...a CdA of ~0.25 - 0.26 does seem a bit high for Levi. But, like I've said, not knowing the details of the comparison, it's tough to put any value on the differences shown in that chart. I'm thinking the comparison may actually have been from Basso (who would've had a P3C to compare to, right?).

I've pointed out to Druber the flaws in his "watt trader" or "purchasing watts" analogy. Here's what I told him is a better analogy:

Quote

BTW, you haven't been "purchasing watts", you've just
figured out ways to not waste them. Your engine has a
finite amount of power when it's in "peak tune", you
just want to minimize how much is wasted so that more
of that finite amount can go into what's important,
going faster! Think of it more as a conservation
program. You may need to put some up front capital
into the project, but your return on investment (i.e. speed) from the savings is huge!

roady

Oct 10, 07 9:33

Post #29 of 236 (5274 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yeah, I've stood next to Levi, and he's one of the only guys I've seen who make me feel big--and I'm in the sub .02 category! Something is fishy with those numbers?

As far as Druber, I beat a lot of guys like that simply because they cling to that attitude--so please, don't try to change his ways!

Rappstar

Oct 10, 07 9:37

Post #30 of 236 (5267 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

For another poster, Lieto's bottle set-up is a dremel job on the bottles themselves. The bottles are empty; he carries his fluids behind the seat in a custom Bontrager carrier.

Yes, those numbers are off if they are for Levi. Allied confirmed he tested at like 0.19, lowest they'd ever seen. You can find that somewhere.

rmur

Oct 10, 07 9:42

Post #31 of 236 (5257 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Trek's press release stated they were for Levi ...

FWIW, 0.19 CdA would require equivalent test drag numbers in the 1475-1500g range.

Does Scott Daubert ever post here?
--------------------
rmur

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 9:45

Post #32 of 236 (5247 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

those numbers are off if they are for Levi. Allied confirmed he tested at like 0.19, lowest they'd ever seen.

Hmm. As Colonel Klink used to say, "interesting.....veeerrrrryyyy interesting."

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 9:46

Post #33 of 236 (5242 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Trek's press release stated they were for Levi ...

My guess would be that was a bit of "artistic license" based on the belief that more people have heard of Leipheimer than of Lieto (or whomever it was that was actually tested).

(This post was edited by Andrew Coggan on Oct 10, 07 10:24)

rmur

Oct 10, 07 9:52

Post #34 of 236 (5227 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

http://biz.yahoo.com/....pf=personal-finance

In any case, what do Cervelo have to say? ;-)
--------------------
rmur

Hamner

Oct 10, 07 9:56

Post #35 of 236 (5220 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks, I guess I'm just a dumbass, but I'm guessing that he found having the bottle on the front was better than nothing at all. I don't really understand that, but I'll take the word of people smarter then me. Nice touch with the straw coming out, that makes it not a fairing?
---------------------------------------------------

Momma's gonna make all of your nightmares come true.

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 9:58

Post #36 of 236 (5213 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

http://biz.yahoo.com/....pf=personal-finance

"Based on Levi Leipheimer�s February 26, 2007 wind tunnel run, which scored the lowest drag numbers ever recorded at the SDLSWT by a male athlete."

Like I said: interesting....veeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyy interesting.

klehner

Oct 10, 07 10:05

Post #37 of 236 (5187 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

those numbers are off if they are for Levi. Allied confirmed he tested at like 0.19, lowest they'd ever seen.

Hmm. As Colonel Klink used to say, "interesting.....veeerrrrryyyy interesting."

Wrong fictional German soldier:

Ken Lehner
-----------------------------------
Weight-room free since 1995...

"reread klenher [sic] and pretty much skip the rest." - desert dude 5/25/2008

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 10:11

Post #38 of 236 (5164 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

what do Cervelo have to say? ;-)

I thought that I already covered that? :-)

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=1516581#1516581

rmur

Oct 10, 07 10:12

Post #39 of 236 (5163 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

okay .. the name Colby Pearce comes to mind ... just fishing .. .
--------------------
rmur

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 10:16

Post #40 of 236 (5152 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [klehner] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

those numbers are off if they are for Levi. Allied confirmed he tested at like 0.19, lowest they'd ever seen.

Hmm. As Colonel Klink used to say, "interesting.....veeerrrrryyyy interesting."

Wrong fictional German soldier:

Ack, you're right!

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 10:19

Post #41 of 236 (5132 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

okay .. the name Colby Pearce comes to mind ... just fishing .. .

roady

Oct 10, 07 10:29

Post #42 of 236 (5103 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

What do you find most interesting about the.019? Do you think that's low for Levi (I don't), or that they haven't tested any male athletes lower? He's pretty damn small. The only guy I can think of who's smaller (your arch enemy Kirk), and I wonder if he's even been to the tunnel.

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 10:38

Post #43 of 236 (5093 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [roady] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

What do you find most interesting about the.019? Do you think that's low for Levi (I don't), or that they haven't tested any male athletes lower? He's pretty damn small.

On first mention, the fact that it was reported to be the lowest measured at San Diego.

On second mention, the fact that they felt it necessary to specify male athlete.

In any case, it doesn't surprise me at all that Leipheimer's CdA is around 0.19 m^2.

(This post was edited by Andrew Coggan on Oct 10, 07 10:45)

Rappstar

Oct 10, 07 10:46

Post #44 of 236 (5072 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

The stats are not for the TTX, but rather the new TTX SSL.

Ummm...aerodynamically speaking (i.e. the "stats" shown in that plot), the TTX and TTX SSL will be identical.

Nope, the frames are in fact different (at least 07 TTX vs. 08 TTX SSL; not sure if they made the changes to all TTX models for 08). New fork, new downtube placement, and some other changes. They cover them in the article.

rmur

Oct 10, 07 10:47

Post #45 of 236 (5068 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

err .. thinking of a 'low aero drag' male candidate .. that's all ..
--------------------
rmur

Rappstar

Oct 10, 07 10:48

Post #46 of 236 (5068 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Hamner] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Oh, THAT bottle. I thought you were talking about his bottles on the frame, which are just dummys. I think the bottle up front is probably a functional bottle. Vineman, where that pic is taken, is a very well supported course, so you can make it the whole way with an aero bottle that you just refill at aid stations.

jens

Oct 10, 07 10:51

Post #47 of 236 (5056 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Yeah...a CdA of ~0.25 - 0.26 does seem a bit high for Levi. But, like I've said, not knowing the details of the comparison, it's tough to put any value on the differences shown in that chart. I'm thinking the comparison may actually have been from Basso (who would've had a P3C to compare to, right?).
--------------------------------------------------------------

Do you remember this photo:

Note the yellow drag history that the rocket scientists at Pezcyclingnews neglected to blur out. Way back when I pixel counted that to determine that Basso's drag was, in fact, .254. I think I posted the calcs here and on weightweenies somewhere at the time.

-- jens

(This post was edited by jens on Oct 10, 07 10:52)

zebragonzo

Oct 10, 07 10:54

Post #48 of 236 (5047 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

As to why it matters...because when people go and buy a new bike, lots of people would rather spend the money on what is proven to be the fastest. They may not be right, but it definitely exists!

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 11:05

Post #49 of 236 (5024 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

err .. thinking of a 'low aero drag' male candidate .. that's all ..

Colby's CdA is in that range even when using the set-up shown here:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ationals074/file0081

SuperDave

Oct 10, 07 11:07

Post #50 of 236 (5022 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Large] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I wish I had the time to list all of the accomplishments, gold medals, podium places, and PR performances that are or could have been achieved with a 0.2% advantage.

I can think of a half dozen records on the track that were eclipsed or fell just short by a margin WELL below 0.2%

What was the total difference between Cadel and Levi in time in TTs in this year's TdF? Do you think Levi would like that 0.2%?

Another way to look at it, 0.2% is about a quarter mile over the course of a Ironman Bike course. Do you think the '06 results or at least the drama of the finish would change if you gave Macca that 1/4 mile leaving T2?

You can claim that it doesn't matter much, but once you concede that it does matter, there is no such thing as negligible, a difference by its very nature and being is important.

-SD

http://www.feltracing.com

Rappstar

Oct 10, 07 11:07

Post #51 of 236 (2861 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [jens] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Yeah...a CdA of ~0.25 - 0.26 does seem a bit high for Levi. But, like I've said, not knowing the details of the comparison, it's tough to put any value on the differences shown in that chart. I'm thinking the comparison may actually have been from Basso (who would've had a P3C to compare to, right?).
--------------------------------------------------------------

Do you remember this photo:

Note the yellow drag history that the rocket scientists at Pezcyclingnews neglected to blur out. Way back when I pixel counted that to determine that Basso's drag was, in fact, .254. I think I po