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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C

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Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 9:12

Post #26 of 236 (5474 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [jens] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Thousands of years ago, when our species was still evolving, obsessive and persistent acquisition of the very best weaponry (spears, clubs, arrows, etc.) was a trait that had tremendous survival value. For example, with a slightly improved spear, you could overwhelm an otherwise vastly superior foe, armed with the old, non-dimpled spear. So this trait was honed and bred into us through natural selection. Thus, in modern-day sport (i.e. sublimated warfare), it's only natural for us to hew to this strongly imprinted trait.

Or as my friend Brian Parr once laconically put it: "if we weren't doing this (racing bikes) we'd be off in the woods beating on each other with sticks and rocks."

rmur

Oct 10, 07 9:17

Post #27 of 236 (5468 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [roady] [In reply to]	Can't Post

the drag/speed numbers imply a Cda around 0.245-0.255. For a small guy like Levi that's surprisingly large. Perhaps he ought to hire Jens/Tom/AC as consultants :-)

If the numbers have been 'adjusted' to protect his true data that should have been stated ...

Something does not quite compute ... else my spreadsheet is just way off.
--------------------
rmur

Tom A.

Oct 10, 07 9:28

Post #28 of 236 (5453 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [roady] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I'm constantly amazed at the resiliency of these threads on ST. Bottom line: the difference in aero performance of the top bikes is negligible, and more than canceled out by body position and/or the strength of the rider. So why must we continue to post wind tunnel tests, charts graphs, etc. when it really doesn't matter? Is it because it's the off-season?

IMO, it's because doing well in timed cycling events ( i.e. TTs or Tri bike legs) is ALL about attention to a BUNCH of little details. This is one of those details. It's up to the person looking at the numbers to decide if they are significant enough to worry about. They, and they alone, get to decide if it "matters".

Personally, I'm constantly amazed at how many people think that none of this stuff "matters" ;-)

Spoken like a real 'watt trader', Tom.....

Is it just me, or do those drag numbers not add up for a 130lb TT specialist??

Yeah...a CdA of ~0.25 - 0.26 does seem a bit high for Levi. But, like I've said, not knowing the details of the comparison, it's tough to put any value on the differences shown in that chart. I'm thinking the comparison may actually have been from Basso (who would've had a P3C to compare to, right?).

I've pointed out to Druber the flaws in his "watt trader" or "purchasing watts" analogy. Here's what I told him is a better analogy:

Quote

BTW, you haven't been "purchasing watts", you've just
figured out ways to not waste them. Your engine has a
finite amount of power when it's in "peak tune", you
just want to minimize how much is wasted so that more
of that finite amount can go into what's important,
going faster! Think of it more as a conservation
program. You may need to put some up front capital
into the project, but your return on investment (i.e. speed) from the savings is huge!

roady

Oct 10, 07 9:33

Post #29 of 236 (5436 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yeah, I've stood next to Levi, and he's one of the only guys I've seen who make me feel big--and I'm in the sub .02 category! Something is fishy with those numbers?

As far as Druber, I beat a lot of guys like that simply because they cling to that attitude--so please, don't try to change his ways!

Rappstar

Oct 10, 07 9:37

Post #30 of 236 (5429 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

For another poster, Lieto's bottle set-up is a dremel job on the bottles themselves. The bottles are empty; he carries his fluids behind the seat in a custom Bontrager carrier.

Yes, those numbers are off if they are for Levi. Allied confirmed he tested at like 0.19, lowest they'd ever seen. You can find that somewhere.

rmur

Oct 10, 07 9:42

Post #31 of 236 (5419 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Trek's press release stated they were for Levi ...

FWIW, 0.19 CdA would require equivalent test drag numbers in the 1475-1500g range.

Does Scott Daubert ever post here?
--------------------
rmur

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 9:45

Post #32 of 236 (5409 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

those numbers are off if they are for Levi. Allied confirmed he tested at like 0.19, lowest they'd ever seen.

Hmm. As Colonel Klink used to say, "interesting.....veeerrrrryyyy interesting."

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 9:46

Post #33 of 236 (5404 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Trek's press release stated they were for Levi ...

My guess would be that was a bit of "artistic license" based on the belief that more people have heard of Leipheimer than of Lieto (or whomever it was that was actually tested).

(This post was edited by Andrew Coggan on Oct 10, 07 10:24)

rmur

Oct 10, 07 9:52

Post #34 of 236 (5389 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

http://biz.yahoo.com/....pf=personal-finance

In any case, what do Cervelo have to say? ;-)
--------------------
rmur

Hamner

Oct 10, 07 9:56

Post #35 of 236 (5382 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks, I guess I'm just a dumbass, but I'm guessing that he found having the bottle on the front was better than nothing at all. I don't really understand that, but I'll take the word of people smarter then me. Nice touch with the straw coming out, that makes it not a fairing?
---------------------------------------------------

It's the consistancy, stupid.

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 9:58

Post #36 of 236 (5375 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

http://biz.yahoo.com/....pf=personal-finance

"Based on Levi Leipheimer�s February 26, 2007 wind tunnel run, which scored the lowest drag numbers ever recorded at the SDLSWT by a male athlete."

Like I said: interesting....veeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyy interesting.

Old and Haggard

Oct 10, 07 10:05

Post #37 of 236 (5349 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

those numbers are off if they are for Levi. Allied confirmed he tested at like 0.19, lowest they'd ever seen.

Hmm. As Colonel Klink used to say, "interesting.....veeerrrrryyyy interesting."

Wrong fictional German soldier:

-----------------------------------
Ken Lehner

Weight-room free since 1995...
"reread klenher [sic] and pretty much skip the rest." - desert dude 5/25/2008

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 10:11

Post #38 of 236 (5326 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

what do Cervelo have to say? ;-)

I thought that I already covered that? :-)

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=1516581#1516581

rmur

Oct 10, 07 10:12

Post #39 of 236 (5325 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

okay .. the name Colby Pearce comes to mind ... just fishing .. .
--------------------
rmur

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 10:16

Post #40 of 236 (5314 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [klehner] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

those numbers are off if they are for Levi. Allied confirmed he tested at like 0.19, lowest they'd ever seen.

Hmm. As Colonel Klink used to say, "interesting.....veeerrrrryyyy interesting."

Wrong fictional German soldier:

Ack, you're right!

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 10:19

Post #41 of 236 (5294 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

okay .. the name Colby Pearce comes to mind ... just fishing .. .

roady

Oct 10, 07 10:29

Post #42 of 236 (5265 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

What do you find most interesting about the.019? Do you think that's low for Levi (I don't), or that they haven't tested any male athletes lower? He's pretty damn small. The only guy I can think of who's smaller (your arch enemy Kirk), and I wonder if he's even been to the tunnel.

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 10:38

Post #43 of 236 (5255 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [roady] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

What do you find most interesting about the.019? Do you think that's low for Levi (I don't), or that they haven't tested any male athletes lower? He's pretty damn small.

On first mention, the fact that it was reported to be the lowest measured at San Diego.

On second mention, the fact that they felt it necessary to specify male athlete.

In any case, it doesn't surprise me at all that Leipheimer's CdA is around 0.19 m^2.

(This post was edited by Andrew Coggan on Oct 10, 07 10:45)

Rappstar

Oct 10, 07 10:46

Post #44 of 236 (5234 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

The stats are not for the TTX, but rather the new TTX SSL.

Ummm...aerodynamically speaking (i.e. the "stats" shown in that plot), the TTX and TTX SSL will be identical.

Nope, the frames are in fact different (at least 07 TTX vs. 08 TTX SSL; not sure if they made the changes to all TTX models for 08). New fork, new downtube placement, and some other changes. They cover them in the article.

rmur

Oct 10, 07 10:47

Post #45 of 236 (5230 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

err .. thinking of a 'low aero drag' male candidate .. that's all ..
--------------------
rmur

Rappstar

Oct 10, 07 10:48

Post #46 of 236 (5230 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Hamner] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Oh, THAT bottle. I thought you were talking about his bottles on the frame, which are just dummys. I think the bottle up front is probably a functional bottle. Vineman, where that pic is taken, is a very well supported course, so you can make it the whole way with an aero bottle that you just refill at aid stations.

jens

Oct 10, 07 10:51

Post #47 of 236 (5218 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Yeah...a CdA of ~0.25 - 0.26 does seem a bit high for Levi. But, like I've said, not knowing the details of the comparison, it's tough to put any value on the differences shown in that chart. I'm thinking the comparison may actually have been from Basso (who would've had a P3C to compare to, right?).
--------------------------------------------------------------

Do you remember this photo:

Note the yellow drag history that the rocket scientists at Pezcyclingnews neglected to blur out. Way back when I pixel counted that to determine that Basso's drag was, in fact, .254. I think I posted the calcs here and on weightweenies somewhere at the time.

-- jens

(This post was edited by jens on Oct 10, 07 10:52)

zebragonzo

Oct 10, 07 10:54

Post #48 of 236 (5209 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

As to why it matters...because when people go and buy a new bike, lots of people would rather spend the money on what is proven to be the fastest. They may not be right, but it definitely exists!

Andrew Coggan

Oct 10, 07 11:05

Post #49 of 236 (5186 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [rmur] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

err .. thinking of a 'low aero drag' male candidate .. that's all ..

Colby's CdA is in that range even when using the set-up shown here:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ationals074/file0081

SuperDave

Oct 10, 07 11:07

Post #50 of 236 (5184 views)

Re: Trek TTX is Faster Than the P3C [Large] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I wish I had the time to list all of the accomplishments, gold medals, podium places, and PR performances that are or could have been achieved with a 0.2% advantage.

I can think of a half dozen records on the track that were eclipsed or fell just short by a margin WELL below 0.2%

What was the total difference between Cadel and Levi in time in TTs in this year's TdF? Do you think Levi would like that 0.2%?

Another way to look at it, 0.2% is about a quarter mile over the course of a Ironman Bike course. Do you think the '06 results or at least the drama of the finish would change if you gave Macca that 1/4 mile leaving T2?

You can claim that it doesn't matter much, but once you concede that it does matter, there is no such thing as negligible, a difference by its very nature and being is important.

-SD

http://www.feltracing.com

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