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The Official Cervelo P4 Thread Picture on first page.
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BMAN
Jul 2, 08 20:44
Post #51 of 249 (7818 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [CERVELOMAD]
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Rhodsey,
I hope that you are not going to get a spanking from Gerard for saying that they are going to unveil the new bike/frame next week. Is this gorilla marketing from Cervelo. Having one of their longest sponsored riders come onto a forum and say more than others have. Or are you just having fun with us.
Just kidding about the marketing but if there is a P4 on the way, will you be the first to have one or were you involved at all in testing this new frame. Answer when you can if you can.
Cheers.
Aero & Light is Right
cerveloguy
Jul 2, 08 20:57
Post #52 of 249 (7785 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [garageman]
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"aero road bike is the next big market....... only felt and cervelo have one."
Never heard of the Kestrel Talon or seen one of these rare babies?
"OK, I'll admit I screwed up the facts"
BMAN
Jul 2, 08 21:19
Post #53 of 249 (7747 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [cerveloguy]
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That is far from being an aero road bike. Look at the headtube on that thing. Plus having seen other pictures of this bike, the tubes are big and not so much aero.
I would like to see as much detail put into a road bike as has gone into the P3C then lets talk aero road bikes.
Aero & Light is Right
garageman
Jul 3, 08 0:34
Post #54 of 249 (7608 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [cerveloguy]
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Forgot about the Talon, Seven should stick to round ti tubes, thats what they are good at. But still a relatively open market.
ozy
Jul 3, 08 2:46
Post #55 of 249 (7522 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [garageman]
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anyway if there is a new Cervelo tt bike on the way lets hope it is damm expensive, so not every man and his dog has one.
You sure you want one? Seems its a girls bike. Take out the wins by CW, LB and JL and it's not that impressive :)
Edited cause i stuffed up the first time.
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BMAN
Jul 3, 08 7:44
Post #56 of 249 (7246 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [garageman]
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I agree that the Talon and the Seven are not good examples of aero road bikes. I would think that the Cervelo SLC is a better example and the new Felt.
Aero & Light is Right
MuffinTop
Jul 3, 08 7:48
Post #57 of 249 (7236 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Learn]
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I read it ... somewhere, which I know doesn't help much! Basically the idea was that the softride gained by not having a seat tube, but that the rest of the bike was not especially aerodynamic. Then the seat tube on the latest & greatest TT bikes were much better than they used to be, so the end result was that the softride wasn't the most aero.
But I have no idea where I read that, so I can't even begin to comment on whether it might have been a trustworthy source.
--
"Oh no, it's the dreaded Muffin Top!" --Mythbusters
http://willronco.com
BMAN
Jul 3, 08 7:54
Post #58 of 249 (7210 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [MuffinTop]
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It would be great to get all the new bikes in the tunnel and also an old Softride and maybe a few other older aero bikes just to see what the actual results would be.
Aero & Light is Right
chicanery
Jul 3, 08 8:54
Post #59 of 249 (7129 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [MuffinTop]
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The front end of a Softride Rocket TT or FasTT bike is not that great aerodynamically (cable routing is terrible, head tube is wide, etc). The rear triangle of the Rocket TT is also not that great -- round tubed stays, a lot of exposed brake cable, etc. There are absolutely issues that must be overcome to create a fast bicycle. The FasTT was certainly a step in the right direction, but that model didn't go over too well and maybe can be blamed for bankrupting the company.
Starting with the Rocket TT - If you fix the cable routing issue by grinding off the external routing cable stops and drill the frame in a few locations, mount a center pull brake on the rear (such as the Zipp model or Campy Deltas), and a few other minor details, you have a bike Cervelo can't touch. I haven't tested against the P3c and P2c (as they are not made in my size with 650c wheels), which are of course a few % better than their aluminum predecessors, but against the P2 classic and P3, they aren't even in the same ballpark for me. Granted, I have a 37" inseam that would require a lot of seatpost / seat tube on a cervelo model that the Softride (and my new-to-me Zipps) don't require.
I don't know if the Zipp is going to be any faster. The head tube and beam mounting area is absolutely better. The rear stays are chainstay only, so there isn't all that material between the downtube and the rear wheel, but also there isn't much in the way of a rear wheel fairing. The downtube however, is rather large and doesn't seem to be shaped all that well either. I am not sure of the perfectly designed airfoils of the beam and upper part of the front end make up for the lower end, or even if there is anything to make up for...if it were me, I would go in the direction of the FasTT downtube (out of carbon though), the Zipp beam, and some partial fairing in front of the rear wheel, at least up to the level of the front derailleur hanger.
Chris
Andrew Coggan
Jul 3, 08 9:23
Post #60 of 249 (7053 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Bman]
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It would be great to get all the new bikes in the tunnel and also an old Softride and maybe a few other older aero bikes just to see what the actual results would be.
Based on the data that I've seen/helped collect, I'd say that the only older bikes that could compare to, e.g., the Cervelo P3C are 1) the GT SB2, and 2) the Lotus. Among the bikes that are definitely slower are (in order) the Hooker, the Cervelo P2 and P2k, and the Softride Rocketwing.
BMAN
Jul 3, 08 9:39
Post #61 of 249 (7005 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Andrew Coggan]
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Andrew, I thought that the Hooker would be one of the bikes that would compare to the P3C. It would be very interesting to get all the so called aero bikes and have someone independently test them. No manufacturers involved at all.
Aero & Light is Right
Jeff_TT
Jul 3, 08 9:48
Post #62 of 249 (6977 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [garageman]
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I also wonder if there was a P4 - then they would have 3 pretty nice tt bikes P2c, P3c and P4c (I am assuming it will be carbon).
Would they cut the P2 or the P3 or keep making them all?
I think I saw a quote from Gerard on here or on Cervelo.com that the P4 would be an addition; not a replacement. I think it also suggested this new bike was going to have a hefty price tag. Given that, I'd imagine they'll run the 2, 3, and 4. I think Gerard would deceive (rightfully so from the business standpoint) rather than lie so if said he has a P3C going out to Cancellara, I really doubt they are close to a P4 yet. Time will tell...
Andrew Coggan
Jul 3, 08 10:03
Post #63 of 249 (6936 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Bman]
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Andrew, I thought that the Hooker would be one of the bikes that would compare to the P3C.
In the TAMU wind tunnel my wife's P3C was a skosh more aero than my old Hooker Cat. 1. The latter, however, was fitted with their proprietary "aero-or-die" handlebars, which have significantly less drag than the VT basebar/clip-ons and Look Ergostem that were (and still are) on my wife's bike. Thus, if you tested just the two framesets head-to-head fitted with the same equipment, the P3C would win going away.
(BTW, having now done three TTs on the P3C, the wind tunnel data are bearing out: my estimated CdA on the P3C during races has consistently been ~0.005 m^2 lower than on the old Hooker. If I compare the P3C data to the one TT that I did on the Hooker fitted with VT handlebars, the difference is closer to ~0.020 m^2.)
bikedude
Jul 3, 08 10:12
Post #64 of 249 (6903 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Andrew Coggan]
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Hey Mr.C
you're running the P3C fixed right? what happens when you put cables on it? i just got a Flet B2 Comp because i like that the cabling run's inside the frame so it looks cleaner then a P3C set up for gears.
have you tested the P3C and the Hooker with cabling?
Dan...
Tom A.
Jul 3, 08 10:15
Post #65 of 249 (6885 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Andrew Coggan]
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Andrew, I thought that the Hooker would be one of the bikes that would compare to the P3C.
In the TAMU wind tunnel my wife's P3C was a skosh more aero than my old Hooker Cat. 1. The latter, however, was fitted with their proprietary "aero-or-die" handlebars, which have significantly less drag than the VT basebar/clip-ons and Look Ergostem that were (and still are) on my wife's bike. Thus, if you tested just the two framesets head-to-head fitted with the same equipment, the P3C would win going away.
(BTW, having now done three TTs on the P3C, the wind tunnel data are bearing out: my estimated CdA on the P3C during races has consistently been ~0.005 m^2 lower than on the old Hooker. If I compare the P3C data to the one TT that I did on the Hooker fitted with VT handlebars, the difference is closer to ~0.020 m^2.)
Dang...that would put the Hooker on par with a P2K when running a regular basebar setup. Thanks...now I don't regret so much not "pulling the trigger" on buying your Hooker last year ;-)
Andrew Coggan
Jul 3, 08 10:18
Post #66 of 249 (6871 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [bikedude]
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Hey Mr.C
you're running the P3C fixed right? what happens when you put cables on it?
I can't: it's a track frame, so lacks the usual holes (and front derailleur mount).
BMAN
Jul 3, 08 10:22
Post #67 of 249 (6853 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Andrew Coggan]
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Thanks for the post Andrew. Do you think that anyone independent will ever test say a dozen or so, so called aero bikes. I know that it would cost a shit load of money to do this but it would sure make a statement in what is aero and what is not. Interesting about the Hooker with todays aerobars. I still thought it would test better. Good news for P3C owners. Also would you have better numbers if you were using a different aerebar set up?
Aero & Light is Right
Andrew Coggan
Jul 3, 08 10:24
Post #68 of 249 (6844 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Tom A.]
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Dang...that would put the Hooker on par with a P2K when running a regular basebar setup. Thanks...now I don't regret so much not "pulling the trigger" on buying your Hooker last year ;-)
Well keep in mind it's only n=1, and from an unusually windy TT at that (such that the CdA of the Hooker + VT bars would be overestimated). Based on theoretical considerations as well as Jen's testing, I would expect the "aero-or-die" handlebars to be worth only ~0.010 m^2, not the ~0.015 m^2 this comparison suggests.
That said, I wouldn't expect there to be a huge difference between the Hooker frame/frameset and the P2k frame/frameset, as both are/were welded aluminum frames made from NACA-profiled tubes. The Hooker did have slightly narrower tubes and aero-profiled vs. round seatstays, but OTOH the P2k has a rear wheel cut-out, which the Hooker lacked.
allenpg
Jul 3, 08 10:38
Post #69 of 249 (6800 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Bman]
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From a global marketing perspective, it would make sense to debut a TT bike at the first TT on 7/8 in Cholet. It's possible 1-2 CSC riders could be riding the new P4C in the race. Lots of global media exposure in the race. Good way to drive demand (and preorders).
-Pete
P.S. I would doubt the bike in the photo is a new Giant. That would be a huge departure for a company that has traditionally made nice, value-oriented, bikes for both the general public and performance riders. Still, I don't know why someone would be riding a Cervlo with High Road wheels (unless they were borrowed).
http://www.extrememomentum.com
http://www.midwesttimetrial.com
Dbeitel
Jul 3, 08 10:39
Post #70 of 249 (6791 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Tom A.]
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Tom
I'm glad you did'nt, because I did !!!
DB
BMAN
Jul 3, 08 10:56
Post #71 of 249 (6751 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [allenpg]
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I totally agree that these frames can not be a new Giant and I personally feel that they are not a new Cervelo either. I think someone mentioned that they were a new Walser frame and after looking at their website just now, I would say that this is the frame that is in the picture. I agree that a bike like this would not come from Giant as I think as you mentioned someone who makes nice, value-oriented bikes for the general public.
Aero & Light is Right
Record10Carbon
Jul 3, 08 11:01
Post #72 of 249 (6730 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Bman]
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That bike looks like a Ceepo to me...but that is just me.
bjorn
Jul 3, 08 11:18
Post #73 of 249 (6692 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Bman]
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I totally agree that these frames can not be a new Giant and I personally feel that they are not a new Cervelo either. I think someone mentioned that they were a new Walser frame and after looking at their website just now, I would say that this is the frame that is in the picture. I agree that a bike like this would not come from Giant as I think as you mentioned someone who makes nice, value-oriented bikes for the general public.
I believe it's the new Giant developed with the help of Steve Hed amongst others.
BMAN
Jul 3, 08 11:45
Post #74 of 249 (6632 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [bjorn]
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Wow that is a big departure from their standard issue designs. Having Steve help with the design is a huge step forward for them I would say and a huge jump forward from their Trinity line up. I would think this is a bike for you Bjorn with the aerobars so damn low. It almost looks like your old Cervelo set up with the bars even or just a bit lower than the top tube.
Still it does look similar to the Walser frame sets I have seen on their website.
Aero & Light is Right
bikedude
Jul 3, 08 12:17
Post #75 of 249 (6549 views)
Re: The Official Cervelo P4 Thread [Bman]
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hey Bman
go take a look at the Video's on Velonews, the with George Hincapie talks about having a new TT rig, so it looks like it's the Giant.
Dan...
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