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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Swim help -- timing the kick

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dwb

Oct 10, 08 4:20

Post #1 of 28 (714 views)

Swim help -- timing the kick	Can't Post

I know a lot of people say the kick is not so important for triathletes, but I feel it could benefit my speed quite a bit.

Normally a pay no attention to my kick whatsoever... I just concentrate on my arms and hip rotation, and let me legs kick however they want.

Recently I have been reading about the importance of synching the leg kick with the hand entry... more specifically, right arm entry = right kick, and left arm entry = left kick. I am working on a 6 beat kick and finding that I have no problem synching my left side of my body, but on my right side I am kicking up with my right leg while my right hand in entering. For some reason these just feels natural, although I am sure it is slowing me down.

How can I work on synching up the arms and legs... what drills work for everyone? Do fins help with this? When I start thinking about my kick, I tend to lose concentration and coordination on my upper body...

Diabolo

Oct 10, 08 4:41

Post #2 of 28 (704 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [dwb] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Go there :

http://www.h2oustonswims.org/

Then, in the menu "Articles" read the "Bottom-up swimming" series of articles :

http://www.h2oustonswims.org/...wimming_revised.html

http://www.h2oustonswims.org/..._swimming_part2.html

http://www.h2oustonswims.org/..._swimming_part3.html

AndyPants

Oct 10, 08 5:10

Post #3 of 28 (690 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [dwb] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry dude, but the best way to learn the kick timing is to just do it over and over and over until it is natural. I found for me that a left downkick timed with the right hand entry gave me the best results for a 6beat kick. Actually one thing that did help was to swim lengths just kicking quickly i.e.: your 6beat tempo, and count your kicks, only allow yourself to enter+pull every three kicks. Kind of like forcing the hand entry timing to match the kick timing, not the other way around.

Good luck!

AP
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AndyPantsRacing
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Co-founder of FoodSluts (TM) - where training is a warm-up to eating.

dwb

Oct 10, 08 5:33

Post #4 of 28 (678 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [Diabolo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for the links... looks like some good stuff there. I'll have to give it a few reads, as some of it is a bit confusing.

If I understand correctly, it seems as if they are saying the exact opposite of the right kick, right hand entry.

Diabolo

Oct 10, 08 5:52

Post #5 of 28 (663 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [dwb] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yep, the opposite is true. Your right kick initiates rotation to your right, making it go with your left hand entry.

Doesn't necessarily sound natural when reading it, but when swimming it is what should happen (naturally, hopefully).

(This post was edited by Diabolo on Oct 10, 08 6:10)

dwb

Oct 10, 08 6:19

Post #6 of 28 (634 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [Diabolo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying that... not sure where I got the idea of right hand entry / right kick idea!

Now it makes a bit more sense...

msk

Oct 10, 08 6:38

Post #7 of 28 (616 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [Diabolo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Is this the same for a two-beat kick? Doesn't seem to make sense to me. When your right hand is recovering and then entering your right hip and leg is above the left. When the right hand enters the right hip should rotate to below the left. Don't you initiate this rotation with a right leg kick then? I'm a horrible swimmer so maybe I've had it wrong all along...

michael

Johnny99

Oct 10, 08 6:44

Post #8 of 28 (606 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [dwb] [In reply to]	Can't Post

No advice here. I'm also working on my kick, for next season. I have been really working on my form the last few years. This season my swim was pretty competitive when I wore a wetsuit, but still back a ways in no wetsuit swims. My theory is that the wetsuit takes the kick out of it. I have a running background and have probably rolled my ankle a few hundred times too often.

I use a tempo trainer to keep my stroke rate constant. My times really come down when I concentrate on kicking. The goal is to find the sweet spot where I get more speed without unduly tiring my legs.

Diabolo

Oct 10, 08 6:47

Post #9 of 28 (601 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [msk] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Um, no. A right leg kick to rotate to your left would feel very awkward (and should hardly be possible, definitely not natural). I hope (guess) that's not what you are doing, although when thinking (writing) about it it seems more natural to you.

msk

Oct 10, 08 7:30

Post #10 of 28 (573 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [Diabolo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Maybe I have the terminology wrong then. Let me try again...

When I am on my left side - with left arm extended and left hip closest to bottom of pool - and I want to transition to right side, I enter my right hand and rotate my right hip towards the bottom of the pool. So I kick with my left leg - the lower leg? Doesn't that get in the way of the right hip rotating towards the bottom then? Thanks...

michael

Diabolo

Oct 10, 08 7:39

Post #11 of 28 (563 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [msk] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes, that description is correct. Try kick a ball (like playing soccer) with your left foot. Your upper body will rotate to your left, not your right.

Kevin in MD

Oct 10, 08 8:04

Post #12 of 28 (540 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [Diabolo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

BEST!

FREESTYLE!

KICKING!

ARTICLE!

EVER!

Should be required reading, I've been sending people that link for years.

tigerchik

Oct 10, 08 8:10

Post #13 of 28 (532 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [dwb] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I've never thought about what leg is kicking when my right (or left) hip is down, so I'm going to ignore that and try to explain this a different way for you:

Your legs suck up 60% of your oxygen (they're a large muscle group) and in swimming, only contribute to about 20% of the forward movement. What you should take from this is that kicking really hard, really doesn't help you.

A good drill would be to purposefully over-rotate, so that you kick 6 beats laying on your right hip (right arm is extended), right arm pulls enough to rotate you over on your left hip, 6 kicks there, left stroke... etc. You can do this with freestyle OR backstroke. Do 'em both, flutter kick on your back might help you "get it" more (I always feel that's a stronger kick. YRMV.)

If you are having trouble with "synching" I wonder if you're scissoring your kick a bit in there - in other words, there would be a point in your stroke where you're kicking and trying to make you rotate but your legs are splaying, probably in over-correction for something else. This can be very slight... but it's enough to set everything else off. So think "tight kick" and again, practicing the above drill on your BACK will help a lot.

Lastly, the best thing I've ever heard from a coach about kicking and distance swimming (tri swims = distance free) is to have "willow legs" that are more for balance than propulsion. Don't kick like crazy and think it'll make you swim faster. it won't. Maybe if you're doing 50s but not distance free... your legs just kinda follow. I barely feel my legs kick much until I start trying to hold 1:10 pace or so (which is my 500 race pace) and then my legs will start to burn from kicking... aside from that... no. Just the nice sensation of water fluttering off your feet.
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noel noel

Mulk

Oct 14, 08 2:54

Post #14 of 28 (406 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [tigerchik] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree with Tigerchik with added caveat that how much your free kick contributes to your speed depends on how strong your kick is to start with, i.e., how fast can you kick a 50 free versus swim it??? If your 50 free kick time (with kickboard and NO pulling on the lane ropes...) is not within say at least 10 sec, of your 50 free swim time, then it is unlikely that your kick is going to contribute much even in a 50 free, much less in the 1650yd/1500m free. Generally your flutter kick ability is directly proportional to your ability to point your toes, REALLY point them as a ballet dancer does. If you can't point your toes well, you're not going to kick free, or backstroke for that matter, very fast no matter how long and hard you work at it. I know this from personal experience across about 35 yrs of swimming since age 3. I can kick breaststroke and fly pretty well but my free and back kicks have always sucked despite many hrs on the kickboard, i.e., I can kick brst/fly about 15 sec/50m faster than free/back. That said, just because you may not able to kick fast flutter kick does not mean you can't swim fast freestyle at distances of 200 yds/m and up, where the kick doesn't matter so much. The key is you just have to pull harder and turn your arms over faster and just let your legs float and kick just enough to keep them up near the water surface. One thing that I have not seen mentioned in various ST swim threads is that, the faster you are swimming, the higher you ride in the water period, whether you're kicking a lot or not. If you can't kick well, you just have to pull harder and faster to get your sped up. The "timing of the kick" will come naturally the more you swim, especially when you try to swim fast, since you can't really think much when you're going all out, you just do it.

In the 1996 and 2000 Olympics (or maybe '92 and '96), Stephan Holmertz of Sweden won 3 or 4 silver/bronze medals in the 200 and 400m free. His kick was so nonexistent that he actually "FISHTAILED", which is one of the biggest flaws you see when coaching young age group swimmers, and I'm sure his coaches tried to correct his form over the years but apparently to no avail. I'm sure he would have been faster if he had not "fishtailed" BUT he had such a great feel for the water, such a powerful upper body, and obviously such a great VO2 max capacity that he was one of the very best middle distance freestylers in the world in the 1990s, going around 3:48ish for 400m LC. If he had swum the 1500m, he probably would have been around 15:10ish. So, obviously you don't have to kick well to swim very fast freestyle. Admittedly it certainly helps but it's not an absolute requirement. Ian Thorpe and Michael Phelps are great kickers as I understand it, but you can be very close to them without the big kick, i.e. Thorpe's world record for 400m LC is 3:40 versus Holmertz going 3:48. Holmertz went around 1:47 or 48 for 200mLC versus Phelps WR of 1:43.

After watching countless adult non-swimmers try to learn to swim over the years, it seems to me that getting the "feel for the water" in your freestyle PULL, rather than the kick, is the single biggest thing that one needs to master in order to become a competent swimmer. You need to be able to FEEEEEEEL the water on the palm of your hand and all the way up your forearm, and FEEEEEEEL a powerful thrust on each pull. After swimming hard, your upper body should be just as "pumped up" as if you had been lifting weights. I hate to say this but time in the water is about the only way to get this "feel" thing down, there's no real shortcut. That said, if you ever do really get the feel for the water down, then maybe, just maybe, you'll fall in love with swimming like a few of us have. To quote Tigerchik, "Find the silken feel of your stroke and just melt into it..."
"ANYONE can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

tigerchik

Oct 14, 08 5:35

Post #15 of 28 (370 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [Mulk] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"One thing that I have not seen mentioned in various ST swim threads is that, the faster you are swimming, the higher you ride in the water period, whether you're kicking a lot or not. "

I love how it feels when you're going fast enough that you're, like, ON TOP of the water
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noel noel

Mulk

Oct 14, 08 5:42

Post #16 of 28 (366 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [tigerchik] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Roger that, feeling ON TOP of the water is a GREAT feeling...
"ANYONE can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

tigerchik

Oct 14, 08 5:44

Post #17 of 28 (364 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [Mulk] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I really like being completely under and dolphin kicking my way out of turns though. That is a good feeling too.

As long as it's not one of those days where try as you might you just "sink" and don't go anywhere...

Enough swim chat, I need to take my bike out before the caffeine from the gels I ate swimming wears off.
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noel noel

AlexG

Oct 14, 08 6:01

Post #18 of 28 (354 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [Mulk] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I couldnt agree with you more. I for one cannot kick across the pool on a kickboard without fins to save my life but I use my kick when I swim free as more to balance my body and I put alot of focus on my pull. I can still swim about a 6:00 500y which isnt going to get me into the Olympics in 2012 but is just fine for triathlon racing. Ironically I find that if I put long fins on and don't kick at all I can actually swim faster than without them because the fins point my toes more and I streamline better. So I have been swimming with fins to doing the same workout I would do with a pull bouy to work on keeping my legs and hips higher in the water to be more streamlined.

I've had 2 coaches tell me that for most adult newbie swimmers out there, they are either puller's or kickers but rarely both. I guess I am a puller, so I focus on that.

SLC_vt98

Oct 14, 08 6:28

Post #19 of 28 (338 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [AlexG] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Alex,

Just a thought, but aren't the fins just lifting your legs (providing lift) with a spoiler action?
Wouldn't that actually reduce the work that your lower back and glutes do to keep you in good body position?
I don't doubt that it makes you faster as you have a nice laminar flow off of your feet and good body position, but I wonder if they are acting as a crutch and taking away from gains that you would make in core strength using a buoy or just dragging your feet.
again I am not an expert but that is my gut feel.

...
Run like you stole something

Trianthes

Oct 14, 08 7:12

Post #20 of 28 (307 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [Mulk] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Mulk - i do not have a swimming background and have just figured out what you refer to as "feeling" the water on you pull. but my kick, or the timing of my kick, needs work. i have been trying to implement a steady 6 beat kick, but i usually start counting with my right leg and when i finish the six beats with my left leg i tend to pause . . . my left leg then splays, i lose propulsion and my stroke is severely disturbed. any suggestions on how to fix this? and fwiw, i do not point my toes very well.

Mulk

Oct 14, 08 11:25

Post #21 of 28 (243 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [tigerchik] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Oh yeah, dolphining out of turns is a great feeling also, but I think I like coming off the wall in breaststroke the best, with the big glide/pull/glide off the wall...I've started incorporating a 10 times 100m breast set in my workout every day to see if I can really become a brststroker, since brst is my best kick.
"ANYONE can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Mulk

Oct 14, 08 11:35

Post #22 of 28 (235 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [AlexG] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Alex - Sounds like you and I swim a lot alike. I can definitely swim faster with the long fins but don't use since I'm afraid of getting "addicted" to them. I actually kick about 1200 - 1600 SC meters a day but it is mainly fly and brst kick, with occasional sets of 100 IM kick w/o the kickboard...I can kick free and back OK for 25 m.
"ANYONE can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

AWARE

Oct 14, 08 12:02

Post #23 of 28 (211 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [Trianthes] [In reply to]	Can't Post

PRACTICE. AND STOP THINKING SO HARD.

Do you breathe at the end of your 6-beat - I'm guessing it's 3 beats/stroke and you're breathing on your right? I think you might just be thinking too hard. A lot of swimming is doing what your body naturally does - and learning the small improvements (feeling the water, rotating your shoulders WITH your hips, rotating your head WITH your shoulders to breathe, not bending your knees, pointing your toes, etc.) are things that should be done over time. Take a hybrid approaching with the pullers/kickers - it'll be really tough to completely reinvent your kicking style and keep it timed well with your stroke. Don't focus too much on the specifics of counting each kick exactly. Keep your hips, knees, shoulders and feet in tune with each other.

My thoughts would be to start over counting when you get to 6...keep counting up. Or to stop counting. You need your body to learn how the kick feels at that count - if you have to remember to count you're going to lose focus on the other parts of your stroke.

And learning to point your toes a little better just takes some practice...like sitting at your computer, or stretching while driving, or after flip turns or just before you fall asleep. You'd be surprised what a difference it will make over time. Think of lengthening your foot and keeping it somewhat loose...as a distance athlete your feet become somewhat like your fins....

Jeez...that's all zen-sounding....
AW
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"Infantries should be comprised of 7th grade girls & lap swimmers." -Mel Goldstein

Trianthes

Oct 14, 08 12:18

Post #24 of 28 (192 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [AWARE] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks. That's helpful.

Mulk

Oct 14, 08 12:21

Post #25 of 28 (188 views)

Re: Swim help -- timing the kick [Trianthes] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Trianthes - Hmmmm, I think I've seen people doing something like what you're describing...I think that perhaps you're thinking about it too much; if you are actually counting each kick, you definitely are...there's not enough time, or brain capacity, to count your kicks and swim at the same time...I can relate, I'm a "thinker" by nature and environmental engineer by trade but when I swim or run or play tennis or ride my bike, I just do it and only think in very broad terms about what I'm trying to do. What works for me, and also what I understand a number of top athletes do, is to visualize your form, to have a very clear picture in your mind of what you want your stroke to look like. Assuming you swim at a pool with some good swimmers, pick out the one swimmer whose stroke resonates in your mind, the one who looks most relaxed, graceful, and powerful to you. Watch him or her swim for as long as you can. JUST SIT on the side of the pool and soak in his/her stroke. Don't try to analyze but just let your mind absorb the stroke and then, when you feel like you've really absorbed their stroke, get right in the pool immediately and just try to reproduce that person's stroke. Keep the image of your ideal stroke foremost in your mind. Don't worry about number of kicks etc, just get into the flow of the stroke. Swimming is all about flow, more so than the bike and the run in my opinion, although certainly getting into the flow, or rhythm is important on the run and bike as well, but it is absolutely CRUCIAL in the water. Try just to let yourself go, don't script your stroke to X number of kicks per arm stroke or whatever. Relax and get into the flow and rhythm of your stroke.

From personal observation, it appears that very few people do what I am describing. Most people rush into the pool, swim their XXXX yds/meters, and then rush out. I on the other hand am prone to loiter and watch whenever I see a really, really good swimmer in the pool. I've swum with, or I should say in the same pool with, probably 20 or more Olympic or former Olympic trials swimmers, and they are always, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, simply POETRY IN MOTION. Whenever I can see such a person FIRST HAND, not in a video, it ALWAYS enhances the mental image in my mind. I remember watching Melvin Stewart, the top 200 flyer in the world from 1989 -96, swim in a duel meet back around 1995-ish. He didn't even swim fly but rather the coach had him swim the 1000 free. This being a duel meet on a Saturday he had probably already swum 10,000 yds that morning, but he still swam a 9:10 and took 10 STROKES PER LENGTH THE WHOLE TIME...I happened to be sitting about 3 rows up in the bleachers right behind the lane he swam in, so I had the perfect view. He was SO STRONG and SO GRACEFUL... After the meet, I drove to my swim club and swam my best 1650 free (the short course 25 yd pool version of the 1500m) of that entire year IN PRACTICE, i.e. faster than any other meet I swam in. Melvin's swim had given me the perfect mental image.

So relax, visualize the perfect stroke, get into the flow, and strive to "find the silken feel of your stroke and just melt into it"...
"ANYONE can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

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