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So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time.
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There are quite a few threads about reaching some target for the month of Nov. Be it S/B/R. In the scope of your triathlon racing, do you really think that this is going to make you faster? Do you really think that this challenge is going to carry over to your races next March, May or July? If so you are smoking crack and I'd advise that you stop. Stop Now. Before you set yourself up for disappointment.

Challenges are great for things like raising money, climbing to the top of a summit of some really tall mountain, hiking a 40 mile trail in under 20hrs. Challenges are not great for you tri training at the end of your season. It's like eating the turkey then trying to make a turkey sandwich. Where is the meat? You can't make a sandwich with just two peices of bread. It's just bread and mustard, there is no sand in your wich.

If you really want a challenge, I have one for you. One that will make you a better triathlete runner. One that will increase your runnning fitness and cause you to strike fear into the hearts of your fellow competitors. Starting NOW, I challenge you to really make a difference in your ability to race a triathlon.

My challenge is for you to run 200 miles per month, every month for the next four months. You must run at least 200 per month and you must get your long run up to 2hrs by the end of month 2 and 2:30 by the end of month 4. You must run at least one other run every week at least 60min in length and your average duration can not be below 25min run. You must swim and ride a total of 4X per week and the length of these is not really important. (in other words don't be a dummy and go ride 2x100mile per week or swim 2x9000 (tigerchik this is really for you ;-)) shelling yourself for your running.) The goal is to raise your running to a new fitness level.

If you want a challenge that will make you faster and fitter and carry over into your triathlon season making you a better racer this is it. If you want to challenge yourself in a half ass way that will not then this is not for you.

For those of you who will take the half assed challenges, may this thread run through your head as you read and watch the calfs of your fellow AG competitors run away from you. For those of you who will take the Full Ass Challenge, you better learn to count b/c you are going to run out of fingers counting the people you run past.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Brian,

How did you know that was my winter running program for years! You keep giving away all the secrets!!

As I think I said in another thread, it's what many Canadian triathletes do - cycling is hard in the winter, but the running( just base endurance running) is actually pretty good, so it's a good time of the year to lay down the miles, and not just for one month, but for 3 - 4 months. And this is NOT to get ready for a spring marathon!!

Edit: You have also pointed out the one area that if a triathlete is REALLY serious about improving, they will want to improve. Reason: NO ONE is running fast in triathlons these days( In the AG ranks) Even minimal improvements in run fitness wil yield big improvements in place performance in triathlon competition.

Fleck


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Nov 2, 06 7:27
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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This challenge is for the technically impaired (like me) who don't own heart rate monitors, Computrainers, etc. I accept the challenge!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Someone please get desert dude some caffeine, stat!!! ; )

Shawn
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Last edited by: ShawnF: Nov 2, 06 7:21
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [ShawnF] [ In reply to ]
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LOL

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like my winter training plan, can I have a couple of weeks off and start late after my last tri in a couple of weeks? I do need to swim a hell of a lot more this winter as well though.

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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DD, what are you doing? I have been reading all those threads and hoping that the competition would all be blowing themselves up this winter. You are ruining it for me!

I had to laugh at some of the challenges to tell the truth. I never exceeded a 1000 mile month this entire past year, including my peak summer pre IM months. The idea of doing one in November or December, 7-9 months out before the next A race seems ludicrous on a grand scale.

I like the idea of a 1000 mile bike month, but I am thinking more like April or May.


Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Well put. You just described my swim focus this winter perfectly. 16 weeks of 8-10 swims per week, running 4x per week, and cycling 3x per week during that focus. The adaptations you get during a 16 week focus will be much more significant and lasting than a one month challenge.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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You're out of your freakin' mind!!!

I mean, these type of posts are ridiculous and totally out of control.

Who the hell puts mustard on a turkey sandwich???

It's mayo, man. MAYO!!!


Dan DeMaio
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Life is like riding a bicycle.
To keep your balance you must keep moving.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Well, for someone who wanted to go top ten at SOMA and only did a 2:23 bike..... maybe a challenge is in order..... :-)

and for people who have early races, it aint too early.....


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"I do my best to slay" - Matt Pike
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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So, what you are saying is that 4 consecutive half-assed challenges makes a good challenge?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going to follow the: Do everything your coach tells you to- no more no less- challenge. If I were to run 200 miles this month I'd end up having to take a month off to heal my knees. There is something to be said for slowly increasing your mileage to build base. Every person has a safe training volume. The key is to consistently raise that volume. Hopefully by March I'll be up to 200 miles and then I can stick to your challenge through the summer!

:)

Jodi
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Well said. One month challenges may be useful earlier in the season to do a swim, bike, or run focus block of training, but I'm not sure I understand the point of doing this at the end of the season. Racking up big volume in any sport in November will only help your 2007 season if you plan to carry that through for another 2-3 months and really make an impact on your abilities in that sport. Become a runner for the next 3-4 months. If you've got a CT or powermeter and a trainer (and can stand the indoor training hours) then focus on the bike for 3 months with a good plan to increase you threshold power. Show up in 2007 as a better runner or cyclist by spending several months becoming one.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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So your recommending 50 miles a week in the offseason? Is this for Ironman or all distances? Essentially that would be 5 ten milers a week if I wanted any off days or time to do other workouts. Is this LSD or mix in some tempo, intervals etc? Do you offer body doubles so someone could watch my kids, do my job, etc.:) Im listening cause I do want to race and run faster in 2007.

How about 30 miles a week for those just doing sprints and international distance?


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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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First the 'Flanagan wetsuit test' and now this? You guys (like me) are ex-swimmers, you should know how to handle a taper!!!

Since we're all tapering for Clearwater we should come up with a drink challenge. As triathletes we'll only need 4, but as ex-swimmers we can get to 15 before realizing it--it's all about breaking through that mental barrier.

Here's a good one, for every 30 seconds Flanagan outswims us, he has to do a shot of Jack. Everyone wins!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Izit ok if I start this FULL ASSED CHALLENGE (Tm) in December?

I was planning on doing a bit of run focus anway (and yes, some swim focus too, but that'll probably be more drills and whatnot than "shelling" myself anyway, not that I've ever once actually been able to shell myself while swimming). But, I don't want to repeat the mistake of too much, too soon like I did after IMLP (and then got PF), so I'm gonna lay kinda low for most of Nov, then start ramping it back up a bit towards the end of the month so I can get up and rolling again for Dec and beyond.

Thx for issuing the FULL ASSED challenge, Brian!

-M


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [tryemdad] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You're out of your freakin' mind!!!

I mean, these type of posts are ridiculous and totally out of control.

Who the hell puts mustard on a turkey sandwich???

It's mayo, man. MAYO!!!


I know you are biased due to the homonym w/ your last name ;-) but I must correct you: When making a turkey sandwich (the leftover, after Thanksgiving kind, not the Boar's Head kind), there is only one thing you put on it as a condiment, and it ain't mustard OR mayo - it's GRAVY!!!!! You can even go nuts and make it a full-on (full assed?) Thanksgiving sandwich and put on some stuffing, mashed potatoes, and even some cranberry relish (my wife makes YUMMY cranberry-based preserves), and then you are livin' large.

Do it right or wasting your time :-)


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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That was kinda the whole point of the the 50000yd, 500mile, 125mile.

You still need to train in each disipline. For me those numbers were a little higher then was i was going to do this month in the first place so it was a good option for me to shoot for them.

I plan on doing similar the next 4 months after that also, just change around the number a little based on how much time i have and how i am feeling.

200 miles would be too much for me. Well i dunno it may or may not. But i am going with coaches orders and staying between 120 and 140.

So whats the problem with this challenge or were you not talking about this?

Grant

Grant
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Ed in IL] [ In reply to ]
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I should have clarified, this is for all distances and the goal is to just run, don't worry about doing intervals or LT workouts. I'll have another challenge for that later in the year when it will really benefit you, of course you need to complete this challenge for that one to really work. The important thing is that if you are going to focus, doing it for one month is a waste of time in the long run. You may see a .5-1.5% long term gain but if you focus for 4 months you may see a 5-10+% long term gain. The key is grasp the concepts behind the challenge while doing the challenge be it at what ever mileage you want to run.

Even if you are just doing sprints or olys, more is really more in many situations. Instead of doing 5x10miles, do something like 7, 10, 5, 5, 15, 6, 3. This actually gives you a 1 mile buffer.

The other part of this is reduce your frequency to only maintainence workouts in the other sports. You don't need to be riding 100+ miles per week. 2x45min to 1hr wil maintain most of your fitness, same with the swim.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Jodi] [ In reply to ]
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Same here. I have to slowly but consistently raise my running fitness and let my body adapt to it before doing something crazy like this.

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Good thread. Don't give this guy caffeine b/c I think this is good advice. I think the "don't be stupid" voice in my head should be louder when I train.

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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I can't do 6-10 shots of Jack ;-)

Seriously, its all about the run though...
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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"this is for all distances and the goal is to just run"

Brian,

It's too simple and straight forward. No one is EVER going to get this :)

Fleck


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [cyclonehockey21] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
That was kinda the whole point of the the 50000yd, 500mile, 125mile.

You still need to train in each disipline. For me those numbers were a little higher then was i was going to do this month in the first place so it was a good option for me to shoot for them.

I plan on doing similar the next 4 months after that also, just change around the number a little based on how much time i have and how i am feeling.

200 miles would be too much for me. Well i dunno it may or may not. But i am going with coaches orders and staying between 120 and 140.

So whats the problem with this challenge or were you not talking about this?


No problem with your challenge, but if you look at the numbers in your challenge, that is more than the typical triathlete puts inn in their biggest weeks. I did not see or read your challenge. The Full Ass or half assd challenge is really about taking what I see as the biggest limiter in the over whelming majority of triathletes and starting to correct the weak link. In the US especially, it seems racing is focused on the S/B combo, but the reality is you can be way off the back off the bike and if you are a good runner move way, way ahead in the race. The flip side is crappy runners run to hang on, the run for their lives and more often than not, poor runners go backwards in the standings as much as they went forward.

Running is also the hardest to build fitness, it takes more run fitness then most people think to really see significant gains in performance. By significant, I'd say a :90 improvement for 10k consistently through the entire season or a 4-5min improvement in the half race after race. Running a 1:47:45 then a 1:45:27 is not really that significant IMO. But running a 1:42:32 is. The 1;42 runner is going to move much further ahead and hold off many more people than the 1:47 or 1:45 person. The 1:42 runner is about 1-1.2km faster over the 21.1k HIM run.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [erichollins] [ In reply to ]
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Eric,

Maybe 50 is not the number for you. Maybe it's 30-40 or whatever. As I have said, the main goal should be for people to grasp the concepts behind the training advice and apply it to there situation. In my case, I am very unhappy with my 1:27-1:28 HIM run times. For me, knowing that the run leg is my weakest event, a 50mpw avg is well below what I have targeted for myself. For someone else 30-35 may be the target.

The main principles are not to fixate on a number but to set a goal and stick with it for 3-5 months to really give yourself time to improve, while maintaining some frequency in the other sports. The fitness levels in the other events will come back quickly once you resume normal training.

Eric, I can guarentee that if you increased your running volume by 25% and held it there for 4 months, fading late in a race or dreading the final leg of the race will be a thing of the past.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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"I can't do 6-10 shots of Jack ;-) "

it's comments like this that make me wish I swam more than once a week. But you don't have to do that many shots, just throttle it back a little ; )

And it's not all about the run, it's about being mentioned on the 'race update' portion of Ironmanlive.com
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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now what is wrong with 9k workouts ;) they're...fun... I don't usually swim that much in one session, it'd be a double!

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Jodi] [ In reply to ]
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re: the do what your coach tells you challenge


can I get in on that too ;)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
And it's not all about the run, it's about being mentioned on the 'race update' portion of Ironmanlive.com


So true! And I have heard rumors it will not be wetsuit legal for the pros. That means AGers will have the fastest swim splits...might be worth it ;-)

Besides, no glory on ironmanlive.com if I run a 1:29, but possibly glory if I can swim 22 or 23.

Not to hijack--well maybe a little--but how much drafting is going to be happening behind us at the begining of the bike? I assume we will be away from the masses with FOP swim splits, but the 28-32 min range is going to be nuts...
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [gavnunns] [ In reply to ]
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I specifically remember Eric F saying you don't need to swim any more :)

jaretj
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I understand... its around what i have been doing and forces me to get in the pool a little more and get on the bike for one long ride.

I have been around 35 miles running, 10k swimming and 80-90 bike as my normal weeks. So for me its that little push to get my extra swimming and biking day in.

I completely understand the run part thats what my coach has been working on. In the last month or so he got me from a 6:39/mile 5k to a 6:10ish/mile 5k. With me never really doing distance stuff before this summer.

For me also i never swam before this year ever. I mean i could do the swim so i don't sink but thats about it so i am really trying to drop that also so i can't just focus on the run.

Grant

Grant
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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Forget about the drafting. It's gonna be so bad, i'm not even thinking about it.

One interesting developement could be the traffic jam in T-1. If you have the slower swimmers from group 1 overlapping the faster swimmers from group 2, you could get about 300 people in t-1, especially if there are only 4 waves in a 1.2 mile swim!

Not to hijack your hijack, but why the hell can't a World Championship race with the water at 75degrees just NOT be wetsuit legal!?!?! I friggin' hate wetsuits.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Not to hijack your hijack, but why the hell can't a World Championship race with the water at 75degrees just NOT be wetsuit legal!?!?! I friggin' hate wetsuits.


I know...its gonna be so friggin' hot, but after the trademarked "Flanagan Wetsuit Test" there is no way I could not wear the damn thing. At Chicago in '05 I accidentally left my wetsuit in transition before the race; its like a different world. Everyone else had a suit, and I had to deal with the "washing machine effect" at the swim start for the first time ever, and I will admit it is pretty intense.

Will you tow me for the first 200 yards like you did at Eagleman?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I was actually plannning on targeting 80K in the pool a month untill it gets warm enough to ride around here which should be in March (5 months) Then move down to 50 to 60K.

I am also taking your advise on running 160 to 180 miles a month stretched over 6 days. So far it's been going well with just easy running, probably hold that all through to next september.

My real challenge is to keep on the bike twice a week and to lose 8 to 10 lbs by May like Paulo suggested I do. I hate riding on a trainer and allways seem hungry now but training hasn't suffered from the lack of calories.

jaretj
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Brian,

Thanks for posting this. If were to start the challenge in December (still recoving from Kona like ML) and have an IM in late June, would it be too much to do this all the way through March? That would lead to an 8-week IM build w/ 3 week taper.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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"Will you tow me for the first 200 yards like you did at Eagleman?"

Fucker!

Yeah, i'll lead you out. As long as I can grab your ankle and recover for the following 200 yards.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In the scope of your triathlon racing, do you really think that this is going to make you faster?

Actually yes. It isn't like I would do one month of dedicated swimming, then stop. I'm planning on doing a big swim month in November, run month in December, run focus in January, swim focus February, then get on the bike again in March once the weather warms up a little.

100,000 metres really isn't too much, and I'm hoping to see some speed gains that will carry through next season on more of a maintenance program.

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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Actually you are more than welcome to draft the whole swim; I don't really care.

To get somewhat back on-topic, have you been working on your run? Both of us had some pretty sorry run splits compared to the others who finished in our timeframe.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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I have been working on my run and bike, and most importantly, my bike pacing. I did a lot of walking those first 4 miles, and plan on being a little more conservative in Clearwater, even trying for a very 'Devashish' negative run split.

I finally got a powermeter (Ergomo) and i've also lost about 8 pounds of chunk since Eagleman, so i've got that going for me.

If you're planning on running 1:29, i'll see you in the pizza line!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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More realistically I am hoping for a sub 1:34. I have an Ergomo too; that thing is sweet!

Dude, Dev is a strong proponent of the positive split. Gotta go out with the guns blazing and fade away but hang on until the line! Wait, I just re-read your post. You walked and still beat me on the run. I didn't walk and still "ran" a 1:39. The lack of "chuck" will help you lots.

OK--off to the pool for my noon swim...not kidding.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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you make a valid point.

In my case, I'm recovering from knee surgery and swimming is the only high volume activity I can safely do. That said, I intend to continue to run and bike this month, albiet at low levels...in December, I'll shift my focus to biking and in January over to running.

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
My challenge is for you to run 200 miles per month, every month for the next four months. You must run at least 200 per month and you must get your long run up to 2hrs by the end of month 2 and 2:30 by the end of month 4.


I've read the challenge threads with some amusement. I've got no knock on the folks doing it or writing about it. It's all good, you know.

But, Brian's a wise dude. My two cents about Nov-Dec-Jan: I'm running a lot. "A lot" in my life is a minimum of 40 mi/wk, up to 70. I started a little block this week. I call it the 2-3-4. This week, I do two 2-hour runs. Next week, 3; the next week 4. I still do the other runs so I'm doing 6 runs per week, each week. It's nothing scientific, just a little goal, like climbing a hill. After this block, I'll think of something else to amuse myself. Probably a couple of epic trail runs. There is a loop I want to do that'll probably take about 4 hours.

Anyway, this is a good post Brian. Not all triathletes need this sort of run focus -- some folks have proven that they can run fast on more modest mileage. But you know, most race reports that are writ in dissappointment involve a slow or painful or underachieving run split. Cycling a lot is fun and easy to get motivated about. Unless you're a longtime runner, running a lot can be not so fun and a pain in the ass. Try this challenge for three months and I think you'll change your mind.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, but when you're walking, sometimes it seems you are walking more than you actually are. Like 'i walked the whole time!' is sandbag for 'i shuffled through the aid stations.'

And the lack of chunk has helped me a lot, but it has hindered my ability to do the Truffle Shuffle.

And i'm swimming today too, you've inspired me. Maybe some 'taper-esque' broken 200's with a hot shower warm-up/warm-down.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Crap! I wish I'd seen this thread before I hired you as my coach! The next 6 months are going to be rough...
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Wait, you're saying that consistency is better than a few epic workouts??? No...

--------------------------

Team Timex 2014
@ajhodges
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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"The other part of this is reduce your frequency to only maintainence workouts in the other sports. You don't need to be riding 100+ miles per week. 2x45min to 1hr wil maintain most of your fitness, same with the swim."



What about with IMAZ in April? doing your four month challenge gets me to the 1st week of march. Then build up in the other two sports or the increased running with the maintenance will be enough?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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So true! And I have heard rumors it will not be wetsuit legal for the pros. That means AGers will have the fastest swim splits...might be worth it ;-)

Besides, no glory on ironmanlive.com if I run a 1:29, but possibly glory if I can swim 22 or 23.

Not to hijack--well maybe a little--but how much drafting is going to be happening behind us at the begining of the bike? I assume we will be away from the masses with FOP swim splits, but the 28-32 min range is going to be nuts...
**************************************************************************



WELCOME TO MY WORLD!!!!!!!!

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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As a side story to this. Who is going to run more than JKenny is going to swim over the next 4 months?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Brian! could you be more specific in your challange by making weekly schedule for the 4 months!

Hey it's worth trying!

STef

Formely stef32
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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no shit......

__________________
JP

my twitter feed
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Martin C] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
There is more to life than triathlon.

Sometimes life is more about fun and fitness, less about worrying what the back of some stranger's calf looks like.
And sometimes people would like to see what they are truly capable of athletically, why read more into it than that?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Guys, guys. A turkey sandwich requires neither mustard NOR mayo. Cranberry sauce only please!

I am relieved to read DD's advice that 2x 45-60 min/week on bike and swim might be enough to maintain each of those sports. For some reason I would have guessed that maintaining bike fitness would require longer sessions. But I'm just a MOP/BOP athlete so for me, he is probably right.

Now, that 45 min bike session - are you talking LSD, steady, threshold pace, steady with some pickups, or...?

Thanks.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Is there a disclaimer or anything that I can not copy or disburse this material in any way? Man, coaching for free? I like it. Pharm business must be treating you well!!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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You must run at least one other run every week at least 60min in length

it's unfathomable to me how fast you guys run.

for me to get 50 mpw, pretty much ALL my runs would be over 60' in length. 50mpw = 5 x 2hr.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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"it's unfathomable to me how fast you guys run.

for me to get 50 mpw, pretty much ALL my runs would be over 60' in length. 50mpw = 5 x 2hr."

I threw 5 mph (12 min mi) into Daniels formulas. If you're running a 28:30 5k then 12 min miles is your easy pace. Even then, marathon pace (lesser of 90 min or 16 miles weekly) is 9:30.

I think building to runs of 4+ hours a week (2 hour long run, one 60 min run, + a couple other shorter runs), 90 min of which is at virtually the 5k race pace... would lead to improvement -- whatever it comes out to in miles.

----------------------------------------------------
Note to self: increase training load.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [SignalStrength] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo had a post once to figure out your T pace - I think I've got mine pegged around 8:30, which would make my L pace around 10:00 -- which is a good clip faster than I've been going.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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isn't 5mph speed walking teritory? i've tried to run on teh treadmill that slow i can't do it. Its like that stumbling want to hit your head on the bar speed. Its so un comforatble.

Grant

Grant
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Please Support CAF every little bit helps http://raceforareason.kintera.org/grantreuter
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
... which would make my L pace around 10:00 -- which is a good clip faster than I've been going.


The one thing that will bring "L" (or Daniels' "E") pace into line with your faster paces is...drum roll....MILES!

It worked for me. I swore for two years that the Daniels tables were a bunch of crap. The tables said my long runs should be ~8:45 and I could barely manage a 9:30 average for 90-120 minutes. Well, a funny thing happened when I bulked up on miles for the fall/winter of 2003-2004. I got a teeny bit faster at 5k-10k, but my long easy pace dropped right down to 8:40-8:45.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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If only this plantar fasciitis hadn't popped up from out of nowhere. I was planning on 250 miles a month. It sucks even more now that you've pointed out how much good could have come from it.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [WIdan] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
If only this plantar fasciitis hadn't popped up from out of nowhere. I was planning on 250 miles a month. It sucks even more now that you've pointed out how much good could have come from it.


BTW -- when I did that first big ramp-up in miles, I got PF. I ran through it by doing all the maintenance stuff the PT folks recommend. It flares up mildly now and then, but it's manageable. I just consider it a nagging, permanent condition that needs periodic attention.

I also got a stress fracture, but didn't know it until I got an MRI for another reason the following spring.

Doc said, "So, I see this stress fracture right here healed up nicely. Looks to be less than a year old." I said, "What the f***...?"
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Ashburn] [ In reply to ]
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man.... I'm already running 6 hours a week**











** except for several weeks of "offseason" where I'm running 3x/wk.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I wanna...but... :(

I think I'll enter Cathy's beer challenge for November, eh? ;)


"You're faster than you think!" --Nike
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, I like these posts that slice through the bs.

Brent
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Ok Brian,

So what if I have averaged 200 miles per month over the past 34 months. What do I do then? :)

I should have stood in line when I first met you to sign up for your coaching. Now it's like signing up for season tickets for the Green Bay Packers; there will never be an opening in my lifetime.

Chad
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Ashburn] [ In reply to ]
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yikes, how can you have a sfx and not realize it?! They're painful things...

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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The main principles are not to fixate on a number but to set a goal and stick with it for 3-5 months to really give yourself time to improve, while maintaining some frequency in the other sports.

There's that whole principle of consistentcy that seems so difficult for many of us to grasp.

How many examples of "You get out of something what you put into it" must we see before we grasp the idea?

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [trigrrlpt] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I think I'll enter Cathy's beer challenge for November, eh? ;)
No I don't think you will ;-)

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
So what if I have averaged 200 miles per month over the past 34 months. What do I do then? :)
You should come visit more often so I can get you in a pool and fix your stroke. then you can do the 50k per week challenge swimming.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
yikes, how can you have a sfx and not realize it?! They're painful things...


Well, my second thought upon hearing about it was, "Well, my left lower leg was hurting pretty bad there for a month or so..."

The doc said that it happens. Some people have them and it never gets that painful, as long as it heals up quickly.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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My challenge is for you to run 200 miles per month, every month for the next four months.

___________________________________

Oh, oh! Me! Me! I'm in!.......uh.....wait......nah, I'm out. Gotta ride.

; ^ )

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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you just ride 176.3 miles per week and I won't call you names. I do have an idea. I'll pay you to Fed ex me a cheesesteak w/onions.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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pssh make him suffer... 180 at least.

Grant

Grant
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Proudly sponsored by Desoto Sports
Please Support CAF every little bit helps http://raceforareason.kintera.org/grantreuter
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with what you are saying. I intend to increase my run mileage, but I need to do it so that I stay injury free. Since I've had 3 running injuries this year and my splits in triathlons obviously indicate that running is my weakest link, I need to be able to run consistently before I try to get faster.

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http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [erichollins] [ In reply to ]
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how many miles did you average over your IMFL build up? Last 10 weeks prior to taper specifically.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I did 38 miles since July 28th due to a running injury. I did a lot of aquajogging instead.

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http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [erichollins] [ In reply to ]
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total miles? on the road? or per week?

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Total miles so I averaged about 3 miles per week since July 23rd.

Looking back at my blog, here's what I ran:

July 23rd - 8.2 miles and the run that made me decide to see someone about my foot
Aug 28th - 2.5 miles
Aug 31th - 3 miles
Sep 2nd - 2.5 mile brick
Sep 4th - 3 mile in a sprint triathlon where I averaged 7:45/mile. All the above miles were about 9:30-10:00/mile. My foot started to hurt again and I think it was a combination of running barefoot on asphalt in transition and running so fast in the race. Decided that I would take a couple of weeks off from running
Sep 16th - 2.5 miles, foot still hurt slightly
Oct 10th - 1.5 miles
Oct 12th - 1.5 miles
Oct 18th - 2 miles
Oct 20th - 1.5 miles
Oct 22nd - 1.5 miles
Oct 26th - 3 miles
Oct 28th - 2 miles
Oct 29th - 6 miles
Nov 3rd - 1.5 miles

Those are the road miles that I ran. I did a lot of aquajogging in there as well with a 3hr session at one point.

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http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [erichollins] [ In reply to ]
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Great Challenge

I actually started my run focus about 5 weeks ago The build has been very slow and on a high diet of holding perfect form. You need to know your limits in order to run this sort of challenge if you don't you will surely break down with an over use injury. This is something that has plagued me for years and it wasn't until I set down some clear guidelines, and stick with them that I was actually able to build up a decent run program.

These include

1. keep the hr down and right down. This will force you to really concentrate on holding perfect form. Once you hr starts to drift, initially it will probably be a result of you losing your form and not fatigue

2. Even though I know I could run 1.5hrs I would limit it too 1 hr. Running fresh with perfect form is a sure way of keeping those injuries away. Know you limits and extend them gradually.

3. Even before fatigue sets in, you will lose your running form. Don't get to the point where you feel you are getting too tired. If you do you probably have already been running for some time reonforcing bad habits.

4. To summarise, Run fresh, run often and experience the good fatigue. its a great way to get fit.

paul
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Did anyone actually do this "challenge" and #1 - survive without career-ending injury OR #2 - live to testify to the benefits of it?

Curious.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [jackbauer] [ In reply to ]
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Just one person but...

1. I've tried a couple times and come up somewhat short (not due to injury, just general lack of training time and/or laziness), I averaged 115 miles/month from Nov06-Feb07 and currently averaging 157 miles/month from Nov07-Jan08, despite coming up short both times it has been a substantial increase from my usual running mileage.

2. I've dropped 8 mins off of my standalone half marathon and last season my run splits were consistently better than the year before.

I actually meant to drag this thread up earlier to thank DD for posting this.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [jackbauer] [ In reply to ]
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Technically, I did not stick to the challenge per say, but it inspired me to run over 500 miles from Nov-Jan, which was more than normal for me, and 2007 ended up being my best year ever. I did stay injury free for the first time in 3 years and got PRs at all distances I raced (4 miles, 10k, 1/2 mary, sprint, Olympic and 1/2 IM). While I did expect the running improvements, the triathlon PRs were more of a surprise as my bike and swim training was very minimal. This year, I am training more like a triathlete, running less and swimming/biking more and we will see if I can keep on improving my times.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [jackbauer] [ In reply to ]
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REAL challenges have spreadsheets ;-)

Reading this has increased my motivation to go train this morning :)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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I hit 256 miles run in Jan.. Feb is not going as well with sickness, dog bite and knee injury.. I should just barely scrape over 200.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [jackbauer] [ In reply to ]
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This is really funny that this thread came up this morning. I was going to reply to it last night after someone linked to it in a post, but I figured it was way too old... go figure.

So the original post motivated me to the full ass challenge, wow almost 12 months ago! I hit my 200 miles in December - March that winter. I experienced some mild plantar fascitis in the middle but I ran through it and it only resurfaced this winter during some 80-100 mile weeks.

So how did I fare? I run a lot of 5k's. My PB before the challenge was 20:14. In April after the challenge I ran 18:02.

I turned into a runner. I run people down in tri's. I age group place in local road races. Obviously I had some latent ability, but the mileage definately brought it out. I have since done another 4 month block of even higher miles, in the range of 300-370/month and I am poised to go sub 17 before the tri season gets rolling.

Soft surfaces, treadmills, and ice and recovery help. Lose weight. Newtons worked for me. Seiko portable metronome. 90 footstrikes/minute. Hill repeats. VO2 max intervals on treadmill, later some 400's on the track. Race a bunch. 2 5k's a month.
Love it. 2 a days. Love em. Don't get hurt...cross your fingers? Be careful and smart. Where do you want to be in your running?

Thanks for the OP it helped me immensely. As did Slowmans's How to kill your 10k PR article.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [jackbauer] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't do the challenge but my coach did have me focus on running from October-current and enter a spring marathon as my running sucked. I came from a swim/bike background but until 2006 had never run more than 3 miles at once in my life, and last year training for IMWI I never ran more than 15 miles at once and or never ran more than 33 miles per week.

Doing a slow but steady buildup by January 1st I was up to 45-50 miles per week (3 weeks on, 1 recovery week) or about 150+ miles per month. Most of it was steady 'base' running with a weekly hill workout thrown in. Still swimming 2-3x per week and riding 2x per week (trainer strength progression ride and then long ride on Saturday). Recently I've started doing more tempo/faster runs in preparation for next months marathon and here is what I've found so far:

Long runs: With a low zone 2 heart rate average I am down to 8 minute miles up to 20 miles on a hilly/rolling course without digging too deep. This is about a 1 minute or more per mile improvement from last year with longer runs by 5 miles. Also, recovery from a 20 mile run is now a day or two max whereas last year it took me 2-3 days to recover from a slower/shorter run.

Half marathon speed: Last year my pb was about a 1:45. Two weeks ago my workout called for me to run at race pace for 13 miles or until I blow up, whichever came first. I was told not to get discouraged if I didn't make it more than 5-6 miles as it was at the end of a solid week and the legs would be tired. Made it the full half marathon distance in 1:30:08, or sub 7 minute miles and a 15 minute pb at that distance. I have the same workout this sunday and I will break 1:30.

Intervals: Last year I could maybe scrape together one 6 minute or so mile at best. Last week the interval workout was a 1/4 mile, then 1/2, 3/4, 1 mile, then back down to 1/4 where the rest was 1/2 the time it took to complete the previous distance. I ran it all at a sub 6 pace including the mile in about 5:45, or faster than I've ever done a mile in my life. Last night's workout was a 2 mile warm up then 7 1-mile repeats with 1 minute rest in between. Fastest was 6:00 even, slowest was 6:15 and this was just two days after a 20 miler. While this isn't blazing it's faster than I ever thought I could run in my life as I simply believed I was not a runner and suffered through it all last year thinking I never would be a runner. Hell, I thought sub 8 minute miles were flying when I first started racing.

My pb's in triathlon runs in 2006 and 2007 were 24:00 for 5k, 46:30 for 10k, 2:02 for half and a 4:35 at IMWI (although my achilles was partially injured for most of 2007). I can't wait to see what I can do in the runs this upcoming year as I no longer fear/dread the run.

So while I didn't take any challenges directly, my coach did challenge me to try to become more of a runner this winter and from what I've seen after just 4-1/2 months is a huge improvement in my running. So DD is definitely spot on with his challenge and the rewards you will reap (as long as you do it safe and with some common sense to avoid injury and overdoing it).


______________________
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [tryemdad] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]You're out of your freakin' mind!!!

I mean, these type of posts are ridiculous and totally out of control.

Who the hell puts mustard on a turkey sandwich???

It's mayo, man. [b]MAYO!!![/b][/reply]

MAYO? Seriously? Maybe some deMaio.

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Like I said on another thread - any post with "Full on Ass" in the subject is going to get my undivided attention.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [soulswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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Your previous 5k pr was 20:14...what kind of running were you doing at that point? Were you just starting out, or a veteran?

Looks like you've dropped your 5k pr 3+ minutes, which is what I'd love to do, but I've been running about 8 years. However, I run very few miles (15-30 per week), so I'm wondering if a large bump in mileage is what I need.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Been thinking of doing this. My "A" races are later in the year. When it comes to miles, would something like a run 9 / walk 1 min (essentially a 10 min mile) count for the miles? Or does walking negate the potential for more significant gains?

fyi - jack daniels easy is 8:57.




desert dude wrote:
There are quite a few threads about reaching some target for the month of Nov. Be it S/B/R. In the scope of your triathlon racing, do you really think that this is going to make you faster? Do you really think that this challenge is going to carry over to your races next March, May or July? If so you are smoking crack and I'd advise that you stop. Stop Now. Before you set yourself up for disappointment.

Challenges are great for things like raising money, climbing to the top of a summit of some really tall mountain, hiking a 40 mile trail in under 20hrs. Challenges are not great for you tri training at the end of your season. It's like eating the turkey then trying to make a turkey sandwich. Where is the meat? You can't make a sandwich with just two peices of bread. It's just bread and mustard, there is no sand in your wich.

If you really want a challenge, I have one for you. One that will make you a better triathlete runner. One that will increase your runnning fitness and cause you to strike fear into the hearts of your fellow competitors. Starting NOW, I challenge you to really make a difference in your ability to race a triathlon.

My challenge is for you to run 200 miles per month, every month for the next four months. You must run at least 200 per month and you must get your long run up to 2hrs by the end of month 2 and 2:30 by the end of month 4. You must run at least one other run every week at least 60min in length and your average duration can not be below 25min run. You must swim and ride a total of 4X per week and the length of these is not really important. (in other words don't be a dummy and go ride 2x100mile per week or swim 2x9000 (tigerchik this is really for you ;-)) shelling yourself for your running.) The goal is to raise your running to a new fitness level.

If you want a challenge that will make you faster and fitter and carry over into your triathlon season making you a better racer this is it. If you want to challenge yourself in a half ass way that will not then this is not for you.

For those of you who will take the half assed challenges, may this thread run through your head as you read and watch the calfs of your fellow AG competitors run away from you. For those of you who will take the Full Ass Challenge, you better learn to count b/c you are going to run out of fingers counting the people you run past.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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200 miles is like a peak build for an IM. One month that is. Four? Breakdown city for most.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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What about the run/walk approach? Does it still 'count' as miles or does the walking negate the concept?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [PapaBear] [ In reply to ]
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I can't speak to if the timing is appropriate for you, but it fucking works.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ew_flat;post=3659793

Summary:
50 mpw x16 was to much for me - so I went for a lessor version that was still a large jump over my historic average.

Result:
3 minute Half Mary PR
Blew shit up on the run of a recent sprint tri - ran over a minute faster than the previous fastest time on the course.


Advice:
Just run.
Pick a mileage that is appropriate for you. For me it was starting at 40 miles and ramping to 50 towards the end - for you that might be 20 ramping to 30, or 30 ramping to 40. My advice - pick a number that it roughly 50% larger than your historical long term average.

If you do this right, your bike will suffer because:
A> if you do it right - you won't be biking much
B> If you do it like I did - you won't be able to bike hard enough to make any real progress and will get frustrated

Be prepared to see it through - I did a 10k 2 weeks in and blew chunks, I did a 5k 8 weeks in and embarrassed myself - I did a HM at week 18 and got a surprise.

So long as your A races fall far enough away that you can properly rebuild your bike after this - go for it.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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This thread is about 6 years old, but the advice is sage and timeless. If you really want to improve your triathlon running, forget about swimming and biking for awhile and focus on running. 50 miles per week is enough to challenge a reasonably fit person around here and way more than enough to improve......which is the point. The only thing I would add is to seriously focus on nutrition and recovery (for the average person) once you are north of 40 miles running per week.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
Last edited by: mojozenmaster: May 13, 12 18:57
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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I'd argue running 200 miles per month for 4 months straight is bad advice. Run more, yes, run careless, no. Forget bike and swimming? I'm not sure I follow the logic.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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My logic is intensity over extensity. Choose to become a better runner and focus intensely on that goal rather than spreading yourself too thin and only reaching mediocrity in all 3 events: extensity. It is like digging for precious jewels: you can move from one heap of dirt to the next heap dirt to the next heap of dirt and get frustrated because there is nothing of value just beneath the surface. Or you can settle on one heap of dirt and dig deep.......everyone knows the most precious jewels lie very deep under the surface.

So seeking to become a better runner is like this ^^^^^ it is not dangerous as long as you have good shoes and a good nutrition/recovery plan, and it is most certainly worth the effort.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
Last edited by: mojozenmaster: May 13, 12 19:22
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
200 miles is like a peak build for an IM. One month that is. Four? Breakdown city for most.

Unless you are plodding along 50 miles a week should take you less than 8 hours a week. I'm really being loose with my definition of plodding also. Now lets take Florida Ironman as an example only 400 people actually broke 4 hours on the run. In other words over 80 percent of the field was running over 9 minute miles. Arizona had almost this same percentage.

Lets see here... hmmm you're running a marathon but 50 miles a week is too much, it seems some people should drop the biking and pick up the running. That explains the times at least, I guess.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
I'd argue running 200 miles per month for 4 months straight is bad advice. Run more, yes, run careless, no. Forget bike and swimming? I'm not sure I follow the logic.

You'll be amazed at how little time it takes to get bike fitness back if you are in shape running the same can be said about swimming. If you are already have reasonable form you can drop swimming and be back to normal after one hard month.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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I saw a quote on twitter yesterday, it was something like....

Both swimmers and triathletes say they need to improve their swim. In the end one group does it, the other doesn't.

Same can be said for triathletes vs. bikers/runners
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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Next someone will repost his diet plan.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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You'll be amazed at how little time it takes to get bike fitness back if you are in shape running.

This ^^^^ is absolutely the truth. One could literally drop cycling completely today, focus on running through June and July, pick up cycling in August and have your best race ever in September.......at any distance.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Mr. Bubble] [ In reply to ]
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Pepsi, Snickers and beer


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Mr. Bubble] [ In reply to ]
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so long as you get adequate calories - his diet "plan" is a pretty good approach.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [PapaBear] [ In reply to ]
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I read this old post last year and decided to follow it. I started in July because my I had missed a lot of training early in the year and I pretty much sucked at any race I entered so I said "What the Heck" lets give it a try. Prior to this decision my typical month had about 75 miles of running. I had only hit 100 miles once in 3 years. I used the Barry P 1,2,3 plan for the format and began to build miles starting with 100 in July, Aug & September 2011. I didn't die, suffer any injuries or fail to complete my swim & bike workouts. The secret was to follow BARRYP advice & plan and do long slow distance. I moved the mileage up to 130 for Oct, Nov, Dec. Still no problems but I did let the bike training slip a little. This year mileage went 160, 143, 170 and I picked the bike back up to three hard sessions a week. My long Saturday run built to a maximum of 15 miles. Did at least 2 swims a week.

Last month (April 12) I did a 70.3. My best prior time (Sep 2009) was 5:31 with a 2:09 run for the final leg. In April I went 5:14 and completed the run in 1:52. This course was NOT as flat as the prior 70.3. I cut 17 minutes off the run and felt strong the entire race.

I will point out that I am now competing as a 58 year old and am in my 5th year of doing tri's. I have no running background prior to starting to do tris.

Doing what BarryP & Desert Dude say just plain works. You don't need to do any speed work until you reach the point that don't have time to run further and still need to improve. At that point you can add a little speed work. Going LSD allows you to complete your other workouts and avoid injuries. It is freakin awesome.


http://bigmikega.wordpress.com
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [BigMikeGA] [ In reply to ]
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Great news! Thanks!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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"One could literally drop cycling completely today, focus on running through June and July, pick up cycling in August and have your best race ever in September"

I say, One could literally drop running completely today, focus on cyclong through June and July, pick up running in August and have your best race ever in September.......at any distance"

Why, fitness is fitness.......
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Beachboy] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Why, fitness is fitness.......

I think that's a bit simplistic.

I think what Mojo was getting at is that if you are in pretty solid shape, you could stop training for a while, then start up again and get yourself back to that level pretty quickly. The reason why you'd have your best race would b eif you've never really aproached your running potential. So you might be a 22 mph biker and a 9 min/mile runner. You slack on on biking, pick up the running, and get your run down to 8 min/mile. Pick the biking back uo and get back to 21.5, maybe 22 mph. The overall total time will be better.

This assumes a few things. 1) That you haven't already maxed out your running potential and 2) that there's more room for improvement in the run than on the bike (biking has a bit more diminishing returns due to the effects of wind resistance at the higher speeds).

On the flip side, this might not be a bad strategy for a maxed out runner who is getting into triathlon, except focusing on the bike instead of the run.


Beyond that, fitness is not really fitness. If that was the case, then when I started triathlon why was I exahsuted riding for a flat 30 minutes at 14 miles an hour despite being able to run a 16:00 5K? There's not really a whole lot of cross over between the events.


-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [BigMikeGA] [ In reply to ]
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BigMikeGA wrote:
I read this old post last year and decided to follow it. I started in July because my I had missed a lot of training early in the year and I pretty much sucked at any race I entered so I said "What the Heck" lets give it a try. Prior to this decision my typical month had about 75 miles of running. I had only hit 100 miles once in 3 years. I used the Barry P 1,2,3 plan for the format and began to build miles starting with 100 in July, Aug & September 2011. I didn't die, suffer any injuries or fail to complete my swim & bike workouts. The secret was to follow BARRYP advice & plan and do long slow distance. I moved the mileage up to 130 for Oct, Nov, Dec. Still no problems but I did let the bike training slip a little. This year mileage went 160, 143, 170 and I picked the bike back up to three hard sessions a week. My long Saturday run built to a maximum of 15 miles. Did at least 2 swims a week.

Last month (April 12) I did a 70.3. My best prior time (Sep 2009) was 5:31 with a 2:09 run for the final leg. In April I went 5:14 and completed the run in 1:52. This course was NOT as flat as the prior 70.3. I cut 17 minutes off the run and felt strong the entire race.

I will point out that I am now competing as a 58 year old and am in my 5th year of doing tri's. I have no running background prior to starting to do tris.

Doing what BarryP & Desert Dude say just plain works. You don't need to do any speed work until you reach the point that don't have time to run further and still need to improve. At that point you can add a little speed work. Going LSD allows you to complete your other workouts and avoid injuries. It is freakin awesome.

So, you are 58, I am 55. So, you have seen first hand how slow most of the folks run in our AG. Personally, I do not see any value in the risk to increase the run mileage since it will go away quickly from either age or injury.

Everyone is different, but I just do not buy into, for our age, that one needs, or is safe to do, lots of running. I see too many on this board that are saying how do you help me with X injury, which is related to running. How ofter do you see this for swimming injuries?

What I do see is many older folks kicking ass in the swim and bike.

So all I know is I never run over about 18 miles a week, which is around your 75. 100% LSD. 100% trail running. Lots of big hills. 3 days a week swimming. 6 to 7 biking on my trainer for an hour with my powercranks. Zero speed work.

Just ran the fastest 10K at WF Oly in my life.

So, there is more than one way to get fast in the run. I just love doing it with the least amount of actual running.

Again, different things work for different folks. I just see too many hurt from too much running.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not going to disagree with you. W each need to listen to our bodies ..But..(yeah there's always a but). Let me tell you what I think. When I started tri's 5 years ago I had been riding a bicycle for about 5-6 years. Spent 2 years on a comfort bike then got a rode bike. Best I could do was about 17mph for an hour. I worked at it and got up to 20mph with the roadies. Got talked into a tri and had a blast. I could barely swim. Spent the next 2 years working on swimming. Went form not being able to swim a 100 in less than 2:30 to 1:30 and I can hold 1:42 per 100 for the 70.3 swim. This is not fast but the time needed to improve beyond that speed is astronomical compared to Bike & run for incremental improvements.

In all my training my biggest obstacles are size & recovery. At 6'3" & 215 I am allergic to hills and I really did not enjoy running. I would go out and run my 3 or 6 miles as fast as I could, be sore, fell like crap and continue to hate running. By last year I was a good biker averaging 20.7 for the bike leg at 70.3 (good for top 5 in AG). Already discussed swimming speed (generally top 20%). How the heck do I pick up 20 minutes in a race to go from 10th in age group to potential podium at a large 70.3 with 60+ competitors in my AG (run around 50-60% in AG). I was giving everything back that I gained swimming & biking on the run. Because of my poor performance doing shorter quicker runs I decided to do the opposite. First thing I noticed was that running was not as "hard" and I wasn't sore the next day. It did not impact my ability to perform my other disciplines training. I slowly ramped up the mileage and had to keep reminding myself to GO SLOW. Did a standalone 10K in month 4 and ran a 49 which was quite a bit better than anything I had done previously. Felt the training was validated and kept doing it. Did a 5k a month later and posted a 22:39 - over 2:30 minutes faster than the time I posted just 5 months prior.

Fast forward to the 70.3 and I dropped 17 minutes off my previous best 70.3 time. The best part is at no time did I have any real pains, injuries or whatever. If I don't think I feel like running I still go and run at least a mile and then decide if I really want to bag the run. Usually I end up doing the run. Consistent LSD has been very easy on my body. If you had ever suggested that I would run a 15 mile training run I would have laughed in your face. I can't think of any other easy to do training that could yield this type of result. I can see that with riding 6 times a week that you may have limited extra available time. I will suggest that you could probably maintain that level of biking performance on 3-4 rides a week. If you can try this starting in the off season say October and do it through March I am willing to bet that your overall times will be better than this year and you will have an easier time handling your overall training stress. Would be an interesting experiment wouldn't it.

I know that I was apprehensive about trying this. I thought that I might break down due to the impact of running. By doing true LSD I avoided all of the issues that you alluded to in your post. I have talked a couple of other people into trying this approach. The ones that actually do LSD are posting good results. Most people don't have the discipline to run this slow. They don't trust the approach and end up sabotaging it by running too quickly


http://bigmikega.wordpress.com
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [BigMikeGA] [ In reply to ]
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BigMikeGA wrote:
I'm not going to disagree with you. W each need to listen to our bodies ..But..(yeah there's always a but). Let me tell you what I think. When I started tri's 5 years ago I had been riding a bicycle for about 5-6 years. Spent 2 years on a comfort bike then got a rode bike. Best I could do was about 17mph for an hour. I worked at it and got up to 20mph with the roadies. Got talked into a tri and had a blast. I could barely swim. Spent the next 2 years working on swimming. Went form not being able to swim a 100 in less than 2:30 to 1:30 and I can hold 1:42 per 100 for the 70.3 swim. This is not fast but the time needed to improve beyond that speed is astronomical compared to Bike & run for incremental improvements.

In all my training my biggest obstacles are size & recovery. At 6'3" & 215 I am allergic to hills and I really did not enjoy running. I would go out and run my 3 or 6 miles as fast as I could, be sore, fell like crap and continue to hate running. By last year I was a good biker averaging 20.7 for the bike leg at 70.3 (good for top 5 in AG). Already discussed swimming speed (generally top 20%). How the heck do I pick up 20 minutes in a race to go from 10th in age group to potential podium at a large 70.3 with 60+ competitors in my AG (run around 50-60% in AG). I was giving everything back that I gained swimming & biking on the run. Because of my poor performance doing shorter quicker runs I decided to do the opposite. First thing I noticed was that running was not as "hard" and I wasn't sore the next day. It did not impact my ability to perform my other disciplines training. I slowly ramped up the mileage and had to keep reminding myself to GO SLOW. Did a standalone 10K in month 4 and ran a 49 which was quite a bit better than anything I had done previously. Felt the training was validated and kept doing it. Did a 5k a month later and posted a 22:39 - over 2:30 minutes faster than the time I posted just 5 months prior.

Fast forward to the 70.3 and I dropped 17 minutes off my previous best 70.3 time. The best part is at no time did I have any real pains, injuries or whatever. If I don't think I feel like running I still go and run at least a mile and then decide if I really want to bag the run. Usually I end up doing the run. Consistent LSD has been very easy on my body. If you had ever suggested that I would run a 15 mile training run I would have laughed in your face. I can't think of any other easy to do training that could yield this type of result. I can see that with riding 6 times a week that you may have limited extra available time. I will suggest that you could probably maintain that level of biking performance on 3-4 rides a week. If you can try this starting in the off season say October and do it through March I am willing to bet that your overall times will be better than this year and you will have an easier time handling your overall training stress. Would be an interesting experiment wouldn't it.

I know that I was apprehensive about trying this. I thought that I might break down due to the impact of running. By doing true LSD I avoided all of the issues that you alluded to in your post. I have talked a couple of other people into trying this approach. The ones that actually do LSD are posting good results. Most people don't have the discipline to run this slow. They don't trust the approach and end up sabotaging it by running too quickly


I am also not trying to say what is correct.

I have been doing this for 16 years, pretty hard for 5. So, getting a good multi year base helps a lot.

And yes, 100% LSD running for me. I probably do 10 minute pace for all my race, but can do a 6:30 in a race.

Now, the one thing I see in your post that caught my eye was your weight. I see very few "big" people being able to run fast. I raced for years at 6'5" around 175-180. I just kept saying how doing I bike and run with the 140 guys? So, I decided to lose weight (I was 149 in high school), and see what happens. I currently have found 160 is my target and boy has they helped me run faster!!! (Still cannot catch the smaller guys, but I try)

Bottom line is what gets us out of bed 7 days a week, 12 months a year to train is what is important. I no longer care about how "fast" I am. Just being out with the smaller group of older guys is what I am trying to do.

Congrads on your results and progress.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Last edited by: h2ofun: May 15, 12 11:08
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave:

Wow, 160 pounds! Seriously?????? I was 170 leaving high school and couldn't do a single push up. Spent the next 30 years playing basketball for fun and lifting weights to "be in shape". Do you find it difficult to restrain your caloric intake or is this just comnfortable for you. Before starting trathlons my weight ( I admit not great shape) was around 240-245. I had a bone spur on my knee that hurt too much th play ball on so I took up riding a bike. I have been under 200 for about a day in the last 40 years. If you have a secret that I can use to drop to 190 I would love to hear. I may just need to wire my mouth shut.


http://bigmikega.wordpress.com
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [BigMikeGA] [ In reply to ]
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paleo diet, veggie juicing, long slow large volume miles...= fat burning machine..

Was 203 coming out of college last June. Today I weigh 168... 6 days a week training..have patience and be consistent

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [ddalzell] [ In reply to ]
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Like I thought, need to wire my mouth shut. I am typically training about 9-10 hours a week so I cannot do a lot more there and hold a job. Just have to say no to foods I like. Wish I had my high school metabolism. I was eating stuff to try to gain weight then.


http://bigmikega.wordpress.com
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [BigMikeGA] [ In reply to ]
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BigMikeGA wrote:
Dave:

Wow, 160 pounds! Seriously?????? I was 170 leaving high school and couldn't do a single push up. Spent the next 30 years playing basketball for fun and lifting weights to "be in shape". Do you find it difficult to restrain your caloric intake or is this just comnfortable for you. Before starting trathlons my weight ( I admit not great shape) was around 240-245. I had a bone spur on my knee that hurt too much th play ball on so I took up riding a bike. I have been under 200 for about a day in the last 40 years. If you have a secret that I can use to drop to 190 I would love to hear. I may just need to wire my mouth shut.

Do I have a secret? Is will power, focus a secret? I do not drink, do not drink cola stuff, do not stuff myself full of snacks, only eat 3 good meals a day, exercise 2 hours a day.

I actually got back to 151, but did not feel right. I still get many comments that I look like I just got out to the death camps. But, if I want to compete at my height, I am just lucky I have a small bone structure to start with.

I have yet to see a big person what they eat that I do not just tell the wife it is easy to see why they are big. If I had that much food, and that much food crap, I would be over 200 also.

So, if you were 170 in high school, this implies you have a small bone structure, so I see no reason you could not get to 180 if you really wanted to.

I tell me wife all the time it would be impossible for a person to be heavy if they ate like me. No seconds. Fixed serving size. When I grab cookies, I take 2 and put the rest away. Would I love to eat the entire bad, YEP!.
But then I could not race.

This video from Dr. Oz was right on the way I do things. One key is I check the scale each night. When I hit 165, I have to stop eatting so much. When I hit 159, pig out time.

Take a look at the video and tell me if you are doing all 7 of the tips. I do.

http://health.yahoo.net/...7-habits-slim-people

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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on the paleo diet and juicing you can have as much as you want :) If you want to eat a full package of chicken with 3 peppers, a carton of mushrooms, a full onion and your bowl covered with salsa and guacamole.... then do it ... I may have done that a few hundred times haha..

You should need to starve yourself...just make sure that what you are eating isn't preserved or altered with chemicals... let it be natural and your body will do what it was designed to do!

the body is amazing, don't fuel it with the wrong things.... It'd be like fueling your car with chocolate syrup or some absurd thing... you wouldn't do that so why do that to your body?

After the first 2 weeks its easy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
COROS Sports Science

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Nope not all 7. Guess I have a new to do list. Biggest issue I have is eating lunch when at work. Not a lot of good healthy options around here. Next issue is no snacking after dinner. Maybe I should just go to bed :)


http://bigmikega.wordpress.com
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [BigMikeGA] [ In reply to ]
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BigMikeGA wrote:
Nope not all 7. Guess I have a new to do list. Biggest issue I have is eating lunch when at work. Not a lot of good healthy options around here. Next issue is no snacking after dinner. Maybe I should just go to bed :)

As I said, it is not easy. I know when I eat a cup cake at lunch, I have to not each my third sandwich. Pretty simple.

It just is how important is it to get faster? No matter how much training you do, the easiest way to get faster is take the weight off.

I bet if you met all 7, your 190 lb goal will be a piece of cake :o)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
3Aims wrote:
200 miles is like a peak build for an IM. One month that is. Four? Breakdown city for most.


Unless you are plodding along 50 miles a week should take you less than 8 hours a week. I'm really being loose with my definition of plodding also. Now lets take Florida Ironman as an example only 400 people actually broke 4 hours on the run. In other words over 80 percent of the field was running over 9 minute miles. Arizona had almost this same percentage.

Lets see here... hmmm you're running a marathon but 50 miles a week is too much, it seems some people should drop the biking and pick up the running. That explains the times at least, I guess.

I'm not sure how many IMs you've done (never know on this board), but I would not put all your stock in run splits. Usually, not always, but usally those that do are average at the other respects. I'm fully aware of the run split numbers at IMs having been at that dance a few times, but I'm not only interest in "finishing strong" or "running fast". I'm interested in putting the fasting TOTAL time together at any distance. It's about balance and finding that personal equation that puts you in the best postion to finish with the fastest total time. That's where people need to spend their training time, figuring out their own equation to determine where you have natural speed and where you need to work on aquired speed. If you suck at running, yea, run more. If you are naturally good at running, not necessary. My only point is running a crap load of miles is not the answer for everyone. It's not that 50 miles per week is too much for a marathon, but 50 miles a week for 16 straight weeks? Get real.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
My only point is running a crap load of miles is not the answer for everyone. It's not that 50 miles per week is too much for a marathon, but 50 miles a week for 16 straight weeks? Get real.

Actually for a straight marathoner, even sub elites are doing more then that per week. 50mpw isn't really a lot of miles when one is just running, even for a 60 yo. You say get real, I say I've seen lots of 60yo's running that mileage.

I think what you are actually missing about this whole conversation is the point of it. It's not to hit a specific mileage total, it's to make a lasting improvement in your run.

You say you are an older athlete. Wouldn't it be nice to not slow down for the next two-three years on the run? Wouldn't it be nice to not chase last years run times this year but instead maybe even speed up a bit?

You need to put this challenge into context. When it was issued, why and what the purpose is.

You say you want the fastest total time possible. But you are not seeing the forest trough the trees. Don't forget many of the times the fastest overall times are laid down by the faster(est) runners.

If the total fastest time is your goal, running, of any of the three sports in an IM, is the #1 reason why people do well or race poorly. You can draw a very, very strong correlation between the top run times and the Kona qualifiers in the AG ranks. You can also draw a strong, maybe even a stronger correlation, between the people saying if only I had run X or XX or XXX many minutes faster I'd have done well or I would have qualified.

In triathlon, and the longer the race the more the run makes or breaks your finishing spot. This challenge is about turning that run into a weapon to use against your competitors and not chasing limited gains with temporary fixes.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Word.

I used the original post of this to motivate me to up my run training in the winter of '06-'07. Got my weekly run mileage up into the 50's, and maxed out at 60 or so.

The result? Bumped up my V.Dot 2 points.
Permanently.

Unlike some St'ers, I don't put a whole lotta credence in USAT rankings, but - that run improvement (along w some other improvements/upgrades) moved me from missing AA honorable mention in '06 (in spite of qualifying for Kona that year, WTF?) to easily making AA each year since.

YMMV.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
Word.

I used the original post of this to motivate me to up my run training in the winter of '06-'07. Got my weekly run mileage up into the 50's, and maxed out at 60 or so.

The result? Bumped up my V.Dot 2 points.
Permanently.

Unlike some St'ers, I don't put a whole lotta credence in USAT rankings, but - that run improvement (along w some other improvements/upgrades) moved me from missing AA honorable mention in '06 (in spite of qualifying for Kona that year, WTF?) to easily making AA each year since.

YMMV.

So, what were your run times at various distances before and after. What age per times? Did you lose weight?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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My weight remained the same. It had gotten down to ~154/70kg the prior year, and is still the same now.

V.Dot went from 56 to 58 over that run training block.
(at my best these days it's more like 59 now)

I'm going to do another run focus this Fall, to prep for NYC.
Hopefully I'll bump it up another notch.

Edited to add:
Hilly 30k (Wurtsboro Mtn) '06 - 2:12.
Same race, near the end of that run block '07 - 1:59.


float , hammer , and jog

Last edited by: Murphy'sLaw: May 15, 12 16:57
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy'sLaw wrote:
My weight remained the same. It had gotten down to ~154/70kg the prior year, and is still the same now.

V.Dot went from 56 to 58 over that run training block.
(at my best these days it's more like 59 now)

I'm going to do another run focus this Fall, to prep for NYC.
Hopefully I'll bump it up another notch.

Edited to add:
Hilly 30k (Wurtsboro Mtn) '06 - 2:12.
Same race, near the end of that run block '07 - 1:59.

IMO, no question, the longer the event, the more critical the run training with more mileage and longer runs. One also has to find if they are a fast twitch or slow twitch kinda person. I know many racers who do not even warm up on the run until well after 10K. For me, I slow down. I can get away with limit running for an Oly distance, even a half marathon. But when I train for a full marathon, yep, I have found without increasing the mileage, I am impacted. But, I still have never needed to run those kinda miles and have done okay for me at a marathon. Could I do better with more run training, maybe, but not worth the risk to me for injury, and just too boring.

Congrads on your improvement, hope you can keep improving.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave,

A - you don't have to quote for every reply. Just reply.

B - somebody who seemingly enjoys pool swimming as much as you do, says running is "boring" ?? Huh?
As compared to staring at a black line? That's a hoot.

You can mix up courses, distances, road vs track vs dirt roads vs trails, hills or flat, stready, interval, fartlek, speed, etc.
Meanwhile, a pool is pretty much like every other pool. And the scenery never changes.

As a buddy of mine who had a 2 decade+ running streak going at one point once said, "if you think running is boring, you aren't running fast enough"


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Who said I enjoyed pool swimming? It is boring. Who said I enjoyed my bike trainer? It is boring. All of the exercise for me is boring. But I love to race which I do not find boring. So to race, I have to train, unless
they can come out with a pill. :o)

I enjoy helping others learn the sport of triathlon and how, for me, this boring exercise can make their life better. I love helping at races giving back and seeing the excitement of others meeting their goals.

I love teaching folks to water ski. I love to help folks train and race to get on TeamUSA. I love lots of stuff, just not training.

Oh well, ...

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I think what you are actually missing about this whole conversation is the point of it. It's not to hit a specific mileage total.


Direct OP quote: "My challenge is for you to run 200 miles per month, every month for the next four months.
"


Pretty sure that's the forest.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
desert dude wrote:
I think what you are actually missing about this whole conversation is the point of it. It's not to hit a specific mileage total.



Direct OP quote: "My challenge is for you to run 200 miles per month, every month for the next four months.
"


Pretty sure that's the forest.

Nope, you are still missing his point. Don't focus on the number and just focus on the overall message he is conveying.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Actually for a straight marathoner, even sub elites are doing more then that per week. 50mpw isn't really a lot of miles when one is just running, even for a 60 yo. You say get real, I say I've seen lots of 60yo's running that mileage.

This is funny too. I actually think you are the one confusing the point. The OP was talking about running 16x50 to improve you as a "triathlete". Not advice for a "straight marathoner." To confuse matters more, care to guess how a "straight marathoner" would do at an IM? Not very well. In the circle I hang out with there is a reason people are only "straight marathoners". Can't swim or bike worth a crap.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [M~] [ In reply to ]
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M~ wrote:
3Aims wrote:
desert dude wrote:
I think what you are actually missing about this whole conversation is the point of it. It's not to hit a specific mileage total.



Direct OP quote: "My challenge is for you to run 200 miles per month, every month for the next four months.
"


Pretty sure that's the forest.


Nope, you are still missing his point. Don't focus on the number and just focus on the overall message he is conveying.

Just realized you are the OP. Even better.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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And running 200 miles per month for 4 months is the opposite of "Balance" (your word.)

Running that much.......it's only 4 months......it is not a big deal. It is not the end of the world. But the dividends paid of that kind of run focus are huge.

"Balance" is way over used here. It is a myth. It has its place after you get proficient in your running. The point here is to dedicate to running. a lot of people are at a plateau in running because they never get past 25-30 MPW. Do something different = Run More......more than a few ST Stud Warriors know this is true.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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So I guess you missed my post where I ran 40+ miles a week for 16 weeks (vs. my lifetime average of 25) - and had a huge half mary PR.

I didn't run 200 miles, but I did run significantly more, consistently over any "long" period than I had done ever before.
Last edited by: sentania: May 15, 12 18:30
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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Not directed at you, but simply a continuation.


You have two choices - suck or don't suck.

If you don't mind sucking - ignore brian's advice; and stop telling people it's a bad idea.

If you wish to not suck - this is a very good path to begin the journey of not sucking.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
there is a reason people are only "straight marathoners". Can't swim or bike worth a crap.

There is a reason why the overwhelming majority of triathletes are crappy runners. What's your point?

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: May 15, 12 18:47
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
So I guess you missed my post where I ran 40+ miles a week for 16 weeks (vs. my lifetime average of 25) - and had a huge half mary PR.

I didn't run 200 miles, but I did run significantly more, consistently over any "long" period than I had done ever before.

That's the point, some have missed. I love how people take the literal wording and don't grasp the concept behind it.

(shoulder shrug) But what do I know?

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
M~ wrote:
3Aims wrote:
desert dude wrote:
I think what you are actually missing about this whole conversation is the point of it. It's not to hit a specific mileage total.



Direct OP quote: "My challenge is for you to run 200 miles per month, every month for the next four months.
"


Pretty sure that's the forest.


Nope, you are still missing his point. Don't focus on the number and just focus on the overall message he is conveying.


Just realized you are the OP. Even better.

No I'm not the OP.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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We're all guilty of missing the point from time to time, but only some of us realize we missed the point and correct things.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
In Reply To:
So I guess you missed my post where I ran 40+ miles a week for 16 weeks (vs. my lifetime average of 25) - and had a huge half mary PR.

I didn't run 200 miles, but I did run significantly more, consistently over any "long" period than I had done ever before.


That's the point, some have missed. I love how people take the literal wording and don't grasp the concept behind it.

I got it, guys, especially this part:

desert dude wrote:
You say you are an older athlete. Wouldn't it be nice to not slow down for the next two-three years on the run? Wouldn't it be nice to not chase last years run times this year but instead maybe even speed up a bit?

That, my friends, hit home ... and timely too, since I had just finally cracked my v2.0 10 Mile goal of 1:30 at Broad Street Run last weekend*, cutting about a minute per mile off last year. I didn't do NEARLY 50 Miles a week, but I did [slightly] longer runs and closer to daily than the previous year






* "v2.0" is what I call my second running career, after I essentially quit between 1999 and 2006; none of my PRs from the 20th Century count, hence the v2.0


"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [randymar] [ In reply to ]
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Bottom Line - If you have a weakness at some point you need to do a focus on that area. You may need to decrease your workouts in the other areas, you may not, it depneds on how YOU RESPOND. I started out as a very decent biker. Spent a most of 6 months doing swims 5 days a week and guess what I may not be fast but I don't suck at swimming any more. Took Desert Dude's old challenge to heart and used the BarryP plan to do it. Now I may not be fast but I don't suck at running anymore.

Balance is great if you already are good at each event. If not you might consider forgetting balance and fix the problem. If you have an event that you really don't like training for - that would probably be a good candidate for a focus period. I found I did not like the things that I was not good & successful at. My 2 cents.


http://bigmikega.wordpress.com
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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"To confuse matters more, care to guess how a "straight marathoner" would do at an IM? Not very well."

I think where you are confused is w/regards to short term vs. long term benefits of what DD is suggesting. At the end of a training period such as he is advocating here, you will likely be a faster runner but a slower triathlete then you had been previously. However, once you reduce your run mileage and ramp up swim/bike, the run will not slow down and you will quickly return to your previous levels in the swim/bike. For me, it took 4 weeks after taking 4 months completely off from swim/bike for both of them to get back to their previous levels. I had chopped 1 minute/mile off my half marathon pace during that 5 month total stretch.

I think you'll find that if you took a survey of the faster triathlete runners, at some point in their lives most of them have done some higher mileage running, if you want to call 50 mpw higher mileage.

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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^^^^this^^^

I reduced my other workouts but did't eliminate them. Cut 1:20 per mile of my 70.3 half mary time. Set Distance (14:30) & Run (17:00) PR in my first 70.3 this year.


http://bigmikega.wordpress.com
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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kdw wrote:
"To confuse matters more, care to guess how a "straight marathoner" would do at an IM? Not very well."

I think where you are confused is w/regards to short term vs. long term benefits of what DD is suggesting. At the end of a training period such as he is advocating here, you will likely be a faster runner but a slower triathlete then you had been previously. However, once you reduce your run mileage and ramp up swim/bike, the run will not slow down and you will quickly return to your previous levels in the swim/bike. For me, it took 4 weeks after taking 4 months completely off from swim/bike for both of them to get back to their previous levels. I had chopped 1 minute/mile off my half marathon pace during that 5 month total stretch.

I think you'll find that if you took a survey of the faster triathlete runners, at some point in their lives most of them have done some higher mileage running, if you want to call 50 mpw higher mileage.

I get what's he's trying to say, but the original post has a serious case of slowtwitchitis. Bold, blanket statement to grab attention that is cure all for everyone only to back track and it's not about specific mileage and to use his statement as a theme and to confuse the matter even worse to pull in the training plan of straight marathoners/sub elites when his original post only addressed triathletes and then to direct it as evidence for the point end of AG triathletes. LOL, wut? If the point is to run more, then say that, or say triathletes need to be doing "x" mileage for this distance or "x" mileage for that distance. I still stand by 50x16 straight is too much mileage for the vast majority of AGers. Injury city. Just my opinion as I think everyone has personal balance equation that needs solving for true maximum performance and to avoid junk mileage and injuries. I also think the older you get like 40, 45, 50, 55 etc. the more complex the running equation gets. It's not just about miles.

Having done multiple marathons and IMs the reason people run slow in an IM is two fold: (i) they just biked 112 miles, and most importantly (ii) it's usually really hot at 1-2pm when you start your marathon. To say all triathletes suck at running is simply foolish. To break 4 hours in an IM marathon means you need to be at least a 3:30 solo mary runner. I bet less than half the field at most IMs can do that. Of the half that can, about half of that group will break 4 hours becuase they paced correctly. That's the math at most IMs. In CdA it was 320/2183 under 4 hours (happen to have numbers in front of me as I was #289 in that group). IMSG was even less percentage wise. Have any friends run Boston this year? How'd they do with the heat (and with fresh legs)? I've got n=6 in my group alone with an average delta of +35 minutes alone.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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Given that Brian coaches, I think he probably has a bit bigger sample size to go on the says 50mpw isn't that big of a deal
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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"To break 4 hours in an IM marathon means you need to be at least a 3:30 solo mary runner. I bet less than half the field at most IMs can do that."

So...I guess we agree that most triathletes suck at running then?

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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So here is the million dollar question- once you do this kind of training block and dial the run back down at the end to reemphasize bike and swim, what pecent of miles from your run focus must you keep in place to maintain these hard earned gains? I know the perfect answer is 100, but what should us working stiffs, family-types be aiming for?

"It never gets easier, you just go faster."
-Greg LeMond

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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kdw wrote:
"To break 4 hours in an IM marathon means you need to be at least a 3:30 solo mary runner. I bet less than half the field at most IMs can do that."

So...I guess we agree that most triathletes suck at running then?

Ding ding ding
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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I would hardly put a 3:30 in the suck category. So what solo mary time does not suck? The slowest you would allow. Curious.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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So you train like or near what the OP suggested and given your comments in this thread must not "suck" as a runner?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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Well an open marathon at 3:30 would age grade you to top 40 percent or so, yet that's top 20 percent run at ironman. In other other words over 80 percent of the runners in an ironman are in the bottom 60 percent of age graded results for a marathon. I would say that's petty bad.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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"I would hardly put a 3:30 in the suck category."

I totally agree with you that 3:30 is not a bad time for someone who thinks 50 mpw is a lot of mileage. With that, you are on your own since you seem determined to miss the point no matter how many people try and explain it to you.

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
So you train like or near what the OP suggested and given your comments in this thread must not "suck" as a runner?


Oh gosh I was just waiting for this comment. I'm impressed you didn't pull up my Disney marathon run time and go haha you suck, thats just poor ST form. No I do suck at running, which gives me more than enough authority to comment on how much triathletes suck as a group. I wish I didn't suck at running because that would put me well into low two hours in an oly and probably sub 2 if I spent time swimming too. I haven't trained as the OP has suggested because for the last three years i've been in school to get into med school and now I'm in med school so full on training really has not been on my mind. However I have dropped tris now and am only going to run. I'll be up to 50mpw by mid june so I'll keep this thread in mind and say how much it helped in oct. Baring my knee acting up again, I don't have a PCL so sometimes I have issues.


Edit: Just to add, anyone who ever asks a question like that is on a last ditch effort to make a point, because essentially you have thrown out 80+ percent of coaches in all sports opinions.
Last edited by: Grant.Reuter: May 17, 12 12:48
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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3:18 marathon, 25 MPW, 54 years old, I suck at running. :o) Quality, not quantity. Age graded 72%, sucks

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
3:18 marathon, 25 MPW, 54 years old, I suck at running. :o) Quality, not quantity. Age graded 72%, sucks

http://www.mc.uky.edu/...evels_Jen_Medina.pdf


Read that and understand it before you continually post your results as some gospel.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Grant.Reuter wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
3:18 marathon, 25 MPW, 54 years old, I suck at running. :o) Quality, not quantity. Age graded 72%, sucks


http://www.mc.uky.edu/...evels_Jen_Medina.pdf


Read that and understand it before you continually post your results as some gospel.

People that have results I listen to more. So, what are your results?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [kdw] [ In reply to ]
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kdw wrote:
"I would hardly put a 3:30 in the suck category."

I totally agree with you that 3:30 is not a bad time for someone who thinks 50 mpw is a lot of mileage. With that, you are on your own since you seem determined to miss the point no matter how many people try and explain it to you.

I don't think 50 mpw is a lot of mileage. I think 16 straight weeks of 50 miles is too much mileage for a triathlete.

I still say targeted balance beats that plan for the HIM/IM athlete. More predictable, and most importantly, less risk of injury.

For some reason I don't know a single HIM or IM athlete that does that kind of running plan. I would guess because very few can physically withstand running 7-8 hours a week for 16 straight weeks and get in the bike and swim time and not physically break down. Dump the bike to make the time? I also don't buy you lose little bike endurance if you drop it for 1-2 months, do this plan, then have the race of a lifetime. For a sprint or Olympic, sure. Yippe for the dude who does well at the local sprint against soccer moms on the 12 mile bike route. Not a HIM or IM.

I swim, bike wth 2-3 of the most popular tri coaches in my area. Maybe they all suck too. None of them are even close to recommending that mileage or do/did it themselves....and they are KQers.

I would argue that you build by targeted balance season after season, focused cycles on each sport as well, but not extreme single sport focus.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Grant.Reuter wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
3:18 marathon, 25 MPW, 54 years old, I suck at running. :o) Quality, not quantity. Age graded 72%, sucks


http://www.mc.uky.edu/...evels_Jen_Medina.pdf


Read that and understand it before you continually post your results as some gospel.


People that have results I listen to more. So, what are your results?

So you don't listen to most coaches? Since most coaches don't have results at what they are good at doing. Being a good athlete isn't a prerequisite to knowing what to do to make people be good athletes. My point in my post which obviously went completely over head given your question is, taking your results and saying people should do X because you think X is the optimum thing for you is worthless. Because its a case study, case studies are good if the number of cases are low. However in running the number of cases aren't low. Running more will in the majority of cases make you a better runner up to a point, a lot of those improvements happen on the way to 50mpw. You saying that you can do X miles per week and run at X speed ignoring all other variables that contribute to that race time is a worthless statement. Which is why asking what my results are is also a worthless question. Each result is based on a bunch of variables that are individualized personally for my situation. Whats not individualized is if you take 500 runners who avg 20 mpw, test their race times then have them work their way up to 50 mpw then retest them, there will be a statistically significant increase in their race times. You may have outliers that didn't achieve much or achieved more than they should have, that doesn't mean you use the outliers for advice that you would give on a forum. Which is essentially what you are trying to do.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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I actually thought you were n=1 on this plan given your comments and slam on IM marathon times. Disney? No idea you were even there.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
I actually thought you were n=1 on this plan given your comments and slam on IM marathon times. Disney? No idea you were even there.

Huh? I used 2500 people in support of his point how is that n=1? At no time did I use n=1. I could use n=1 and say what my tri times and run times are and how much I actually train, but that would be silly cause I understand case studies.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Grant.Reuter wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Grant.Reuter wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
3:18 marathon, 25 MPW, 54 years old, I suck at running. :o) Quality, not quantity. Age graded 72%, sucks


http://www.mc.uky.edu/...evels_Jen_Medina.pdf


Read that and understand it before you continually post your results as some gospel.


People that have results I listen to more. So, what are your results?


So you don't listen to most coaches? Since most coaches don't have results at what they are good at doing. Being a good athlete isn't a prerequisite to knowing what to do to make people be good athletes. My point in my post which obviously went completely over head given your question is, taking your results and saying people should do X because you think X is the optimum thing for you is worthless. Because its a case study, case studies are good if the number of cases are low. However in running the number of cases aren't low. Running more will in the majority of cases make you a better runner up to a point, a lot of those improvements happen on the way to 50mpw. You saying that you can do X miles per week and run at X speed ignoring all other variables that contribute to that race time is a worthless statement. Which is why asking what my results are is also a worthless question. Each result is based on a bunch of variables that are individualized personally for my situation. Whats not individualized is if you take 500 runners who avg 20 mpw, test their race times then have them work their way up to 50 mpw then retest them, there will be a statistically significant increase in their race times. You may have outliers that didn't achieve much or achieved more than they should have, that doesn't mean you use the outliers for advice that you would give on a forum. Which is essentially what you are trying to do.

I have never used a coach. Why would I need one? I can read. I can watch and talk to the top racers and see what they do. I can see what works for me.

And yes, I have a LOT more respect for folks who can walk their talk.

So again, show us your results to at least allow others to see if what you do produces results that others might want to follow. They can then compare your N-0 results and your training and age, to my N-0 results with my training and age. There is not one answer for getting faster on the run. For some, more mileage might work. But with all the folks I have talk to over the years, and many who used to be able to run much faster than most in ST, the ones who cannot run anymore all say the same thing to me, they wish they would not have run so many miles and worn their bodies out. If you can get to my age, and exceed my results, then we shall see.

I believe in supporting folks for long term involvement in this sport, not a short term focus. You would never want me as a coach with this attitude. :o)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
Well an open marathon at 3:30 would age grade you to top 40 percent or so, yet that's top 20 percent run at ironman. In other other words over 80 percent of the runners in an ironman are in the bottom 60 percent of age graded results for a marathon. I would say that's petty bad.

This is possibly the quote of the year in my opinion.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
I don't think 50 mpw is a lot of mileage. I think 16 straight weeks of 50 miles is too much mileage for a triathlete.
I still say targeted balance beats that plan for the HIM/IM athlete. More predictable, and most importantly, less risk of injury.
For some reason I don't know a single HIM or IM athlete that does that kind of running plan.


You do understand he said to do this over the off-season right. What half ironman training or full iron training plan run 12 months?

3Aims wrote:
I also don't buy you lose little bike endurance if you drop it for 1-2 months, do this plan, then have the race of a lifetime. For a sprint or Olympic, sure. Yippe for the dude who does well at the local sprint against soccer moms on the 12 mile bike route. Not a HIM or IM.


You don't have to believe it but its true most people can be back full on in a month, if you put in a hard bike month they ran consistently for whole time. But your also comparing apples and oranges. Because you would never run 50 mpw and completely drop biking you can still ride 1-3 times a week easy and maintain your basic bike muscle fitness. But he's not off saying it only takes a month or two.

3Aims wrote:

I swim, bike wth 2-3 of the most popular tri coaches in my area. Maybe they all suck too. None of them are even close to recommending that mileage or do/did it themselves....and they are KQers.


Yes, cause all you need to qualify for Kona is running 50mpw...


3Aims wrote:
I would argue that you build by targeted balance season after season, focused cycles on each sport as well, but not extreme single sport focus.


Once again this isn't a plan to do in the season, Its for the offseason, so when you get to the season you have bigger gains in that singles sport because you over stressed your system more than you could ever do on tri training for that specific sport. Your build for all three sports happens in the spring, not in october, hence why a single sport focus works. You'll be back to normal in those sports before you even hit your build phase.
Last edited by: Grant.Reuter: May 17, 12 14:18
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Grant.Reuter wrote:
3Aims wrote:
I actually thought you were n=1 on this plan given your comments and slam on IM marathon times. Disney? No idea you were even there.


Huh? I used 2500 people in support of his point how is that n=1? At no time did I use n=1. I could use n=1 and say what my tri times and run times are and how much I actually train, but that would be silly cause I understand case studies.

Your times silly? Why. If they are good, then I would listen to what you are doing like I do for all the folks who can walk their talk with numbers. But if you times and training are poor, what does that say?

If I want to be rich do I hang around and listen to poor folks. If I want to improve my racing to I talk with and follow opinions of BOP racers?

So, please show us your silly race results and training process. Since you clearly say you know how it works to maximize performance, please show us how it has worked for you with real numbers and results.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Once again you don't get my point, by asking for my results and what I do to achieve my results you are looking at a tree in the forest, specific to my situation and my athletic background which is completely different than most people. Brian is not talking about specifics which lead to specific results he's talking about a broad idea that will lead to improved results on the run for the majority of people who aren't running much right now. But I forgot debating with you is like debating with someone with earplugs in you never hear what the other person is saying.

You always bring this up which COMPLETELY disproves your point

"But with all the folks I have talk to over the years, and many who used to be able to run much faster than most in ST, the ones who cannot run anymore all say the same thing to me, they wish they would not have run so many miles and worn their bodies out."

So what you're saying is that they ran more miles and therefore were faster than most people on ST on the run. I'm just shocked that they ran more and were faster just shocked.

"If you can get to my age, and exceed my results, then we shall see. " Why would my results matter to anyone in my 50's besides me? This is such a silly comment. I don't care if I exceed your results when I'm in my 50's. My goal isn't to go just fast enough now so that I can run fast in my 50's. We get it you don't have a competitive attitude you want to have longevity in triathlons got it. That doesn't mean you're better than other people who would rather be faster now then try to impress people with their times at 55.

No I wouldn't want you as a coach because you don't understand basic physiology, that would be my main problem.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
Grant.Reuter wrote:
3Aims wrote:
I actually thought you were n=1 on this plan given your comments and slam on IM marathon times. Disney? No idea you were even there.


Huh? I used 2500 people in support of his point how is that n=1? At no time did I use n=1. I could use n=1 and say what my tri times and run times are and how much I actually train, but that would be silly cause I understand case studies.


Your times silly? Why. If they are good, then I would listen to what you are doing like I do for all the folks who can walk their talk with numbers. But if you times and training are poor, what does that say?

If I want to be rich do I hang around and listen to poor folks. If I want to improve my racing to I talk with and follow opinions of BOP racers?

So, please show us your silly race results and training process. Since you clearly say you know how it works to maximize performance, please show us how it has worked for you with real numbers and results.

Because Dave, what you seem to continually fail to grasp is my results are specific to me and not optimized because of my specific situation. Explaining how I got to certain race results would require me to not only go over my training but also go over my whole school schedule for the 4 years along with when each test and project were due. In addition I would have to explain my background in high school and college in different sports and how that relates to my training. Does that actually sound useful for your situation. hmmm no probably not given that you don't study 50+hours a week. Which is why its silly to explain my results, the same way its silly to give your results. However, the fact I don't have optimal results doesn't mean I don't know how to achieve optimal results, which is exactly my point when talking about coaches, which you failed to grasp, its not about their results its what they know so that they can explain how someone can achieve optimal results. You don't have to have results to be able to do that you have to experience and a large subset of people to draw that experience from and then be able to integrate it into a plan for a specific person. By not listening to coaches you are basically taking other peoples specific experiences and trying to mesh them in a plan that works for you. Its much more logical to take what is proven to work over a wide range of people and then integrate it into a specific plan that works for you.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Okay, I found it for you.

http://mydisneymarathon.com/...rld/grantreuter30575

Grant Reuter age 27 13.1 half marathon (Not even a full)

1:56:33 Age Grading 51.18

Dave Campbell age 54 13.1 Urban cow

1:27:00 Age Grading 80.21

Yep, I do not understand basic physiology at all. :o) And on only 18 MPW running all 100% LSD

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Last edited by: h2ofun: May 17, 12 14:35
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Okay, I found it for you.

http://mydisneymarathon.com/...rld/grantreuter30575

Grant Reuter age 27 13.1 half marathon (Not even a full)

1:56:33 Age Grading 51.18

Dave Campbell age 54 13.1 Urban cow

1:27:00 Age Grading 80.21

Yep, I do not understand basic physiology at all. :o) And on only 18 MPW running all 100% LSD

Oh Dave, I was so hoping you would post that SO SO SO SO SO hoping. You make it so easy to show that you are clueless. You want to talk about that race okay here we go.. I ran a total of I believe 30 miles in the 6 weeks before that race, probably with something to do with medical school I dunno its actually kinda busy. Hmm now what else could have contributed to that time... hmmm i'm not sure OH WAIT maybe it might have been this...

or maybe this.... or maybe one of the other 20 pictures of the course of the run.

Now I know it couldn't have also been because of this

http://athlinks.com/...&courseid=267715 which is the relay I did with one of my friends the next day for the marathon.... nooo couldn't be any of those variables nope nope nope.

Sorry Dave, this is why i'm not going to go through all my results, because frankly you just don't get it.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Its cool though Dave,

I can play the arbitrary race results game too

http://athlinks.com/...9/22642481/115780870

Dave Campbell- 1:32/100m, 19.45mph bike, 7:24/ mile run for a sprint.

http://athlinks.com/...65/45940845/96448040

Grant Reuter 1:15/100m, 24.63mph bike, 6:35/mile run for a sprint

That was fun!!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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This thread is now officially out of control and there are only two people actively posting! ;) Nice pics from Disney, I like.

FWIW (and without seeing this thread) I started a build from a lifetime max of 25 mpw in November to 50 mpw in Jan/Feb/Mar this winter. Almost 90% LSD (and I am putting the S in LSD - started in Nov at almost 11:00+/mile).

In April I dropped 3:30 off my 5K PR (now high 23), 5:30 off my 10K PR (now 46 min) and 14 mins off my 1/2M PR (1:57 -> 1:43). None of those efforts were flat out (I hate it when people say that but compared to the near collapse at the line from the prior PRs I almost coasted in on these). The purpose of the run block was literally "become a durable runner" for a late summer IM this year. This is the first time I have been able to run consistently without incurring some ankle/achilles/calf/hamstring/glute injury and it's while running 200+ miles per month. The speed was almost a bonus.

I know that my times aren't ST fast, but they are n=1 in favour of this concept and I was excited to see the thread (resurface) and see Brian's take on it. Felt like I guessed right finally on something training related.

I am also wondering what volume I need to maintain these gains through the next 3.5 months as I focus on building up the swim/bike volume... dropping back to 35-40 mpw for now and I guess we'll see.

You guys can go back to kicking the shit out of each other now.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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Haha, Thanks! I love those races down there, I was only going to do the relay but it was the 15th anniversary this year and I said screw it cause the Donald medal was sweet. I'm actually going to maybe try to race the marathon next year so we'll see what happens.

It's not a matter of how fast you are it's how much of a difference it makes to run more and run longer (years wise), you're going to get faster and most likely those gains will stay with you. Which Dave seems to completely not understand even though he posted exactly that point based on the people who he talked to who are runners.

Keep working at it though! When I started doing tri's I came from a hockey background and was probably running your 11min pace too. Just a lot of work and some time and it will come down.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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When I'm not SBR I'm at the rink... gotta say the fitness gains from triathlon have made that way more fun lately. As everyone else gets slower with age I am getting faster again. Still have hands of stone though, thank goodness for the $200 sticks ;)

Triathletes should try having their bike slashed in half by some plug on a monthly basis - that would make for some interesting threads. I've also yet to see a throw down in a tri between two guys that have to go to work the next day/home to the wife and explain the black eye.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
I swim, bike wth 2-3 of the most popular tri coaches in my area. Maybe they all suck too. None of them are even close to recommending that mileage or do/did it themselves....and they are KQers

If you're basing what to do off the popular tri coaches in your area because of the fact that they are KQers, I see where your problem is.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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Haha, I've been close a couple times to that going down hills or on turns where people think it would be appropriate to make a new line without look.

god, talk about something that is going though the roof is the price of hockey sticks. They have over doubled in like 6 years since I was playing. They are awful for kids too because there is so much rebound of them. We were discussing that at a camp I was helping coach at, the young kids cant catch passes partially because there's less give in the blades now.

Definitly miss it though. There's a few Cities I can go to for rotations my third year that. Have hockey rinks. I'd love to play again. Talk about a completely different workout. I mean I've been sore after tris, but at least my bones never feel like they are shattered.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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It's amusing that the people who have posted on this thread that have ACTUALLY TRIED THIS PLAN are all posting about improvements. Everyone else is just scared of it.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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It's 4 months though 4! What if it doesn't work I'll be out four months of training, my friends will all leave me because my race times haven't improved. My gf will make fun of me, it will be the end of the world!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Your times silly? Why. If they are good, then I would listen to what you are doing like I do for all the folks who can walk their talk with numbers.

I'm faster than you, so you should do exactly what I do.

Good philosophy.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [TheRhino] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I am also wondering what volume I need to maintain these gains through the next 3.5 months as I focus on building up the swim/bike volume... dropping back to 35-40 mpw for now and I guess we'll see.


I'd say that ~35mpw +/- a few is appropriate. You can maintain with 20-50% less depending upon which study you are reading.

Congrats on the huge time drops, that is exactly what this off-season challenge was about.

Ironically people say that the risk of injury goes up when people run more miles. I'd argue that the risk of injury is higher for someone running 2-3x per week then 6-8x per week. but that's a search function argument since it's been hashed out.

Ironically if someone were to do this for swimming or cycling they would see like results. (you can search user names gtingley or dave Luscan to see what happens when people do this for the bike, although I think Gary might have had it on a blog)

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
I'd say that ~35mpw +/- a few is appropriate. You can maintain with 20-50% less depending upon which study you are reading.

That's what I am hoping... already looking forward to doing this again next winter... another side effect of the block was that I actually enjoy the running now. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
3Aims wrote:
I swim, bike wth 2-3 of the most popular tri coaches in my area. Maybe they all suck too. None of them are even close to recommending that mileage or do/did it themselves....and they are KQers


If you're basing what to do off the popular tri coaches in your area because of the fact that they are KQers, I see where your problem is.

I don't. Point was I just don't know anyone recommending 16x50. I have number of books and other plans (I like to study different HIM/IMplans). Still looking for something recommending that.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
It's amusing that the people who have posted on this thread that have ACTUALLY TRIED THIS PLAN are all posting about improvements. Everyone else is just scared of it.

Why not 60x16? Or 70x16? Don't you think the burden of proof on 800 miles of running in 120 days should come from the OP?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Last edited by: 3Aims: May 17, 12 18:04
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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Because the law of diminishing returns on aerobic miles appears to diminish at a certain point. The burden of proof is showcased in his athletes.
Last edited by: James Haycraft: May 17, 12 18:07
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
Its cool though Dave,

I can play the arbitrary race results game too

http://athlinks.com/...9/22642481/115780870

Dave Campbell- 1:32/100m, 19.45mph bike, 7:24/ mile run for a sprint.

http://athlinks.com/...65/45940845/96448040

Grant Reuter 1:15/100m, 24.63mph bike, 6:35/mile run for a sprint

That was fun!!

Have to admit I got a "chuckle" from this.....
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
Because the law of diminishing returns on aerobic miles appears to diminish at a certain point. The burden of proof is showcased in his athletes.

He's not following that this isn't a training plan for a half iron, iron or any other race. It's an offseason run improvement plan. If it was six months it wouldn't be offseason anymore.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I struggle with the offseason. I raced Miami 70.3 and did IMSG. Who has time for an offseason?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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James Haycraft wrote:
Because the law of diminishing returns on aerobic miles appears to diminish at a certain point. The burden of proof is showcased in his athletes.

So why not 40x16 or 35x16? Why is 50x16 the magic number?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
I guess I struggle with the offseason. I raced Miami 70.3 and did IMSG. Who has time for an offseason?


Anyone that wants to improve in the long-term.

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So why not 40x16 or 35x16? Why is 50x16 the magic number?



I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. The number was just a number. The point is an increase in your recent run volume. Many triathletes run 25-35 miles/week. So a logical big (but not too big) increase is 50mi/week.


I'm not speaking for the OP. I'm just guessing.


But I think in the end, you're well and truly missing the point of the "challenge." By a lot.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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The swim was kinda absurd because I was able to run a good chunk of it. I really can't swim that fast :) but that was my point I would have to explain every race in context because I'm not a pro doing perfect training full time so some races are shit, some are good, some they don't know how to measure and some have hard bike and run course Or some I take pictures with Disney characters. Given that I'm not full time training those differences are magnified more than a pro who is more or less consistent. So Dave going do what I do an posting a time is worthless.

Anyways back to an intelligent conversation at least. If you want to get faster you have to at least have a pseudo offseason at some point. The reason this is, is because maximal gains come with over stressing the muscles and having them rebuild etc. Well there is a limit to how much you can do this on a Tri only plan. But If you take four months and have a run focus. You aren't going to lose anything on the bike and swim you can't quickly get back. And you will make improvements on the run that aren't possible on a Tri plan.

I think we would both agree I'd two people are running 20 mpw and one decides to start doing 50 and the other one stays at 20 the 50 mpw person will get faster. I think the problem is youre just over concerned with fitness loss that really isn't as bad as you think. It's not a matter of time for an offseason if you want to peak at races you need to make time for it so you can have better gains. Trying to peak for everything will make you peak for nothing
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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3Aims wrote:
James Haycraft wrote:
3Aims wrote:
I swim, bike wth 2-3 of the most popular tri coaches in my area. Maybe they all suck too. None of them are even close to recommending that mileage or do/did it themselves....and they are KQers


If you're basing what to do off the popular tri coaches in your area because of the fact that they are KQers, I see where your problem is.


I don't. Point was I just don't know anyone recommending 16x50. I have number of books and other plans (I like to study different HIM/IMplans). Still looking for something recommending that.

you would never find one of those plans that would recommend this. But not because it doesn't work.
I think we have reached the point in this thread where your mind is completely closed off to what Brian and others are saying. But as others have said, the proof of what it does it out there.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in: I start tomorrow. goal will be between 40 and 50 mpw. Plan on doing this for June/July/Aug/Sept. I plan on doing one 4000 yrd swm a week - and three bike sessions, two 1.5 hr and the other 3+hrs working up to 6/7/8ish. I'm in education so it's my professional 'off season'.

I'll have at least two sprints that fall in this time period that will receive no reduction in workout (no taper) and an Ultra distance (1st one) at the end of October.
Wish me luck.




desert dude wrote:
There are quite a few threads about reaching some target for the month of Nov. Be it S/B/R. In the scope of your triathlon racing, do you really think that this is going to make you faster? Do you really think that this challenge is going to carry over to your races next March, May or July? If so you are smoking crack and I'd advise that you stop. Stop Now. Before you set yourself up for disappointment.

Challenges are great for things like raising money, climbing to the top of a summit of some really tall mountain, hiking a 40 mile trail in under 20hrs. Challenges are not great for you tri training at the end of your season. It's like eating the turkey then trying to make a turkey sandwich. Where is the meat? You can't make a sandwich with just two peices of bread. It's just bread and mustard, there is no sand in your wich.

If you really want a challenge, I have one for you. One that will make you a better triathlete runner. One that will increase your runnning fitness and cause you to strike fear into the hearts of your fellow competitors. Starting NOW, I challenge you to really make a difference in your ability to race a triathlon.

My challenge is for you to run 200 miles per month, every month for the next four months. You must run at least 200 per month and you must get your long run up to 2hrs by the end of month 2 and 2:30 by the end of month 4. You must run at least one other run every week at least 60min in length and your average duration can not be below 25min run. You must swim and ride a total of 4X per week and the length of these is not really important. (in other words don't be a dummy and go ride 2x100mile per week or swim 2x9000 (tigerchik this is really for you ;-)) shelling yourself for your running.) The goal is to raise your running to a new fitness level.

If you want a challenge that will make you faster and fitter and carry over into your triathlon season making you a better racer this is it. If you want to challenge yourself in a half ass way that will not then this is not for you.

For those of you who will take the half assed challenges, may this thread run through your head as you read and watch the calfs of your fellow AG competitors run away from you. For those of you who will take the Full Ass Challenge, you better learn to count b/c you are going to run out of fingers counting the people you run past.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [PapaBear] [ In reply to ]
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I'm three weeks into it. So far - I'm realizing that 40 mpw is going to be the 'target' (>40mpw for the three weeks) - It's funny, some runs I feel like I struggle and others I feel great. Just gonna keep on trucking.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [PapaBear] [ In reply to ]
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Go Papa.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [PapaBear] [ In reply to ]
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update:

did a PR for the bike and run portion for a sprint race this weekend.

...gonna keep on trucking
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [PapaBear] [ In reply to ]
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Well, this definately works. I have PR'd my last two run splits on this method. Very minimal speed (or 'quality') in training for the last 8 weeks. There is a bridge I run up and down occassionaly but for running its mostly LSD in the 30/40 mpw range.

to the OP (and anyone else who has had a build similar to this)... Should I continue doing the LSD for a few more months? or start adding higher intensity stuff. I was thinking about adding a 5k TT every other week, but not sure if this would be counterproductive in the great scheme. My last race was a 6:40ish mile (for a sprint). I weigh 195 lbs so obviously getting to 180 would help, but as far as training alone is concerned, I'd be wondering to hear what you guys have to say.


(FYI - my swim is constant and bike is slightly improved by doing this method)


- As for now, Papa's gonna keep on truckin




PapaBear wrote:
update:

did a PR for the bike and run portion for a sprint race this weekend.

...gonna keep on trucking
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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sentania wrote:

You have two choices - suck or don't suck.

If you don't mind sucking - ignore brian's advice; and stop telling people it's a bad idea.

If you wish to not suck - this is a very good path to begin the journey of not sucking.

^^^

2012/2013 challenge???
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [BrianD] [ In reply to ]
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I am kinda in, I do not worry about the total miles but I think I am doing more than the 200
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Guess by this stage this question may have answered itself.. no challenge this year Brian? :( The masochist in me was looking forward to it so I guess I'll just have to do it on my own.

Adam
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Funny thing is I took all of last year (with the exception of a few MTB/Xterra events for fun) off from triathlon and got the trail running bug. After a year on the trails, running regularly upwards of 60MPW I have found a passion I didn't have before in triathlon. I am taking up Duathlon for 2013 while still running long trail days for my training. A bonus of my foray away from tri has been a huge gain in endurance and running speed. Want to get bitch schooled in a race? Try short course duathlon! Man there is some great talent out there doing those events, I was humbled, being smoked like a cheap cigar by a guy 20 years my senior at the Auburn World's Toughest Du last year.


Dave Stark
dreamcatcher@astound.net
USAC & USAT level 2 certified coach
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
There are quite a few threads about reaching some target for the month of Nov. Be it S/B/R. In the scope of your triathlon racing, do you really think that this is going to make you faster? Do you really think that this challenge is going to carry over to your races next March, May or July? If so you are smoking crack and I'd advise that you stop. Stop Now. Before you set yourself up for disappointment.

Challenges are great for things like raising money, climbing to the top of a summit of some really tall mountain, hiking a 40 mile trail in under 20hrs. Challenges are not great for you tri training at the end of your season. It's like eating the turkey then trying to make a turkey sandwich. Where is the meat? You can't make a sandwich with just two peices of bread. It's just bread and mustard, there is no sand in your wich.

If you really want a challenge, I have one for you. One that will make you a better triathlete runner. One that will increase your runnning fitness and cause you to strike fear into the hearts of your fellow competitors. Starting NOW, I challenge you to really make a difference in your ability to race a triathlon.

My challenge is for you to run 200 miles per month, every month for the next four months. You must run at least 200 per month and you must get your long run up to 2hrs by the end of month 2 and 2:30 by the end of month 4. You must run at least one other run every week at least 60min in length and your average duration can not be below 25min run. You must swim and ride a total of 4X per week and the length of these is not really important. (in other words don't be a dummy and go ride 2x100mile per week or swim 2x9000 (tigerchik this is really for you ;-)) shelling yourself for your running.) The goal is to raise your running to a new fitness level.

If you want a challenge that will make you faster and fitter and carry over into your triathlon season making you a better racer this is it. If you want to challenge yourself in a half ass way that will not then this is not for you.

For those of you who will take the half assed challenges, may this thread run through your head as you read and watch the calfs of your fellow AG competitors run away from you. For those of you who will take the Full Ass Challenge, you better learn to count b/c you are going to run out of fingers counting the people you run past.

Here for 2 reasons:

1. Eat crow (I'm somewhere in this thread saying it's bad advice and a one way ticket to getting hurt)
2. Damn, brother. It has literally turned back my clock. Age up to 45-49 this year. Was feeling like I was going the other direction. Wanted to mix things up. No doubt the best running shape I have ever been in. My bike? FTP higher. Swim? Faster. Nothing lost there.

I'm doing 18 weeks and have 3 weeks left. Probably closer to 60 vs 50, but with delta being super easy. Seven runs over 6 days a week. Strategic bike and swim mixed in too.

Interesting stuff for sure.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, thanks for brining this thread back. Very good read.
Also really entertaining conversation between H20 and GR.

I must admit with the posts you wrote your a brave man dragging this back to the front page. LOL
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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well it wasn't really meant for people in my age group, just all the others ;-)

Congrats. Glad you gave it a try and you're seeing results.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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That's not even that much
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
Its cool though Dave,

I can play the arbitrary race results game too

http://athlinks.com/...9/22642481/115780870

Dave Campbell- 1:32/100m, 19.45mph bike, 7:24/ mile run for a sprint.

http://athlinks.com/...65/45940845/96448040

Grant Reuter 1:15/100m, 24.63mph bike, 6:35/mile run for a sprint

That was fun!!

Great series of posts. Apparently this managed to quiet the ever present h2o. Glad to see the arguments from him haven't changed one single bit in 3+ years.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [BigMikeGA] [ In reply to ]
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BigMikeGA wrote:
I read this old post last year and decided to follow it. I started in July because my I had missed a lot of training early in the year and I pretty much sucked at any race I entered so I said "What the Heck" lets give it a try. Prior to this decision my typical month had about 75 miles of running. I had only hit 100 miles once in 3 years. I used the Barry P 1,2,3 plan for the format and began to build miles starting with 100 in July, Aug & September 2011. I didn't die, suffer any injuries or fail to complete my swim & bike workouts. The secret was to follow BARRYP advice & plan and do long slow distance. I moved the mileage up to 130 for Oct, Nov, Dec. Still no problems but I did let the bike training slip a little. This year mileage went 160, 143, 170 and I picked the bike back up to three hard sessions a week. My long Saturday run built to a maximum of 15 miles. Did at least 2 swims a week.

Last month (April 12) I did a 70.3. My best prior time (Sep 2009) was 5:31 with a 2:09 run for the final leg. In April I went 5:14 and completed the run in 1:52. This course was NOT as flat as the prior 70.3. I cut 17 minutes off the run and felt strong the entire race.

I will point out that I am now competing as a 58 year old and am in my 5th year of doing tri's. I have no running background prior to starting to do tris.

Doing what BarryP & Desert Dude say just plain works. You don't need to do any speed work until you reach the point that don't have time to run further and still need to improve. At that point you can add a little speed work. Going LSD allows you to complete your other workouts and avoid injuries. It is freakin awesome.

this was very helpful. if you're still around, thank you for this. i thought i'd read this thread in years past but don't remember your post.

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit


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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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This is a great thread for many reasons. It took a few sittings but over the last 24 hours I read every post.

I am in the middle of a Run Focus (I did not exceed 100 miles in any month last season, November was my offseason except for the last week so only 25 miles, but December was over 150 miles, and January - March should each be over 200 miles) so reading these threads is extremely valuable. The only added twist that I have with my running plan is that in my intermediate runs (8-10 miles) I try to run at an increased cadence (180 vs. 168 or 170). Based on my heart rate this creates a little bit more stress than I would like, but I think that it is necessary and my heart rate is coming down during these runs.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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I really appreciate you bringing this back. I read this a while back and used it over this off season to get ready for a marathon at the end of this month. I was nervous about my bike and run coming back but feel reassured by your post. Ive been averaging about 40 miles a week for the past 4 months and I have never felt so good about my running legs. We will see how it worked on the 24 in Miami then IMLP.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [cannedham1] [ In reply to ]
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cannedham1 wrote:
I really appreciate you bringing this back. I read this a while back and used it over this off season to get ready for a marathon at the end of this month. I was nervous about my bike and run coming back but feel reassured by your post. Ive been averaging about 40 miles a week for the past 4 months and I have never felt so good about my running legs. We will see how it worked on the 24 in Miami then IMLP.

I'm always open to trying new things and after a complete shit year in 2015 from run problems, I don't remember how but I saw a post by DD and remembered this thread. No way I would have done this a few years ago as evidenced by my posts. I've lived in the 30 mpw world for about 5 years. I'm now in 45-49 AG.

I started in October and pretty much followed a 4/60/80 format. Swim 4 miles a week (2 swims), run 60 miles a week (7 runs over 6 days), and ride 80 miles per week (3 rides). My run plan was prepared by our local run guru that I trust and don't get me wrong it is very structured. The runs ALWAYS gets priority. If a day was a double, the run was always first. Some really fast. Some at tempo. Lots really easy with some short strides. I added on my swims and runs. My bike was two one hour rides hard (90-100% FTP) and one two hour ride at 70.3 pace. Swim was my normal masters stuff. I'm running a marathon in Phoenix in a month to complete the journey. I have no doubt I am faster now than my peak running shape in 2010 but will keep the marathon paced moderate as I have a big year planned for tris.

My FTP is up slightly from what was a record bike power year for me, but those weekly 60 minute hammerfests have really help my engine. I do one 60 minute per week at FTP. I could only do that every 2-3 weeks last year. Those rides would shell me last year and part of me was wondering if the smallish run base may have been to blame (meaning I was really taxing my legs on my runs with a smallish base and that was impacting my bike engine).

Regardless, I'm almost done with this and it worked big time for me. More important than my run pace, my run base, how my bike and swim are still good/great, I'm 100% healthy and have never felt stronger. That was why I did this "test".
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for the kind words Kathy. Still around, mayor of fact I just signed up for my first 140.6. I immediately turned to Desert Dude for coaching.


http://bigmikega.wordpress.com
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Hahaha wow I forgot all about this thread. Yeah I just make the choice to ignore him now. It's not worth the effort.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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Here is some info I ran across this morning while doing my usual Sunday skim of research...maybe skim is the wrong word since it's usually around 90min worth of skimming.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/...rts-2015-095788.full

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Here is some info I ran across this morning while doing my usual Sunday skim of research...maybe skim is the wrong word since it's usually around 90min worth of skimming.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/...rts-2015-095788.full

Any chance you could post a few of the sites you skim weekly

Thanks
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Brian - Just discovered this thread a few days ago and I'm going to give this challenge a go.

I'm a FOP swimmer/cyclist who typically loses ground on the run. In essence, I get to count calves as they run by me. Some of it is certainly over-biking, but when you know the calvary is coming, my goal was to put as much time into the groups behind me as possible and then hang on...sometimes it works, but other times it's frustrating.

For this challenge I feel like I can swim 10K per wk (3x per wk), bike 5 hours p/w, and get in 50 miles of running as prescribed (6-6.5 hours).

My question is in regard to cycling...do you recommend any days of effort (LT or higher work), or do you look at all of the cycling to be supplemental to running?

I understand the goal is to fully immerse oneself into 4 months of big boy running. It works perfect for me, to train my weakness and race my strength. I'm looking forward to posting some positive results in late February.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [tryemdad] [ In reply to ]
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+1 Mayo!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [3Aims] [ In reply to ]
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How did your year go?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Raw Oyster] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for finding this and replying so I could find it too. I haven't spent that kind of time running in a few years, and I want to try it too. I figure I'll spend the rest of this month building up my run legs a bit and then start my first 200 mile month in November.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Raw Oyster & imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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That's a solid amount of training, are you in the S. hemisphere? ~ 14-15hr, well now that I add it up it's not a lot or training.

I'd not do anything that compromises your run training too much, that should be the priority.

If you look at some recent research it showed that you only have to do a vo2 workout every other week to maintain that aspect. Now it was in footballers not triathletes but I suspect it's going to carry over.

If you've never run this sort of volume, don't underestimate how crappy your legs are going to feel in week 2 and 3. But by 4 or 5 they should come around.

And that # doesn't have to be 50. it could be 40 or 60 or it could be one week at 45 one week at 60. The main thing is to run more frequent and get more miles in than you've done in the past few to 3 to 4 or so seasons.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in the same boat - I averaged 30-35 mpw last winter. I'm not a great runner by any stretch - PR's were 36:30 10K, 17:55 5K, 1:25 Open Half, but that was about 6 years ago.
Presently, I'm closer to a 39:XX 10K, 5K 19:00 and Open Half in the low 1:30's guessing 1:32-33...so I need to really focus on getting back to pure running, as those numbers are not getting it done.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Brian - appreciate your advice on how this plan works best.

I'm in the Southern part of the Southern Hemisphere - Atlanta.

I've never had that type of consistent volume before - usually in the 30-35 mph, going up to the low 40's but certainly not over the course of time we're talking about..so it will be a challenge, but one I'm ready to tackle.

I'm going to go "all in" on this and give it a shot. This will certainly give me more miles than I've had in the last few years, and I have to admit I like to train the things I'm a little better at - so cycling and swimming started taking a priority over running. And my results speak to that...I'm tired of staring at calves passing me on the run.

I'll provide some feedback in 16 weeks.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Just wanted to bump this thread and say if you haven't been doing this then you're missing out. Holy crap I'm amazed at the progress I've made already.

I had built up to 40mpw base BarryP style in winter/spring 2016, but never did any tempo or anything. I did see some gains, hit 6:17/mi at a sprint after running at 7:00/mi the previous fall. Ran OK at my first IM, but ran very conservatively.

This summer I did a bike focus since it's hotter than balls in Texas, ran solely on the treadmill and looking back didn't do too good getting my miles in. After seeing this thread in early October I committed myself to getting up to 50 mpw by the end of the year and then start to work some tempo and maybe speed work in.

Here's my mileage progress:




So I hit 50 mpw by the first full week of December by adding no more than 10% each week, and even throwing in recovery weeks. I added tempo 1-2x/week starting after Christmas.


Just to give you an idea of the progress, I ran a 10k Turkey trot and avg. 6:33/mi and my HR was over 180 before the first mile was over and stayed there the rest of the race (max is 186). I was redlined. This past week I ran 4 miles off the bike (90 min 80-85%), avg. 6:33/mi and my HR barely made it to 170 by the end of the run when I was doing closer to 6:15/mi. It was amazingly easy, I was just cruising.


Yesterday I was curious what it would take to get my HR up to 180 now since I have a race this weekend, so towards the end of an "easy" 10 mile run I ran a fast mile at gradually increasing pace. It took hitting 5:45/mi for the last 1/4 mile before I could get my HR to 180.


This past winter/spring when I got to 40 mpw, I could run ~8:00/mi pace at around 150 bpm but it would creep the longer I would run, I think that had to do with my form deteriorating, not sure. This morning I ran ~9 miles at just over 8:00/mi and my HR avg was 134 bpm. This is crazy.


I have a sprint Du this weekend 2m/10m/2m, and then a half marathon next weekend, I'll report back.




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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Great stuff, challenge accepted!
Thanks Brian
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [donhensley] [ In reply to ]
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WOW it's been just over 11 years since I wrote the initial post. My how time flies and the concept is still as relevant, maybe more so as it's become more challenging to KQ with more races and less slots per race.

If anyone has more questions on how to do this, post them and I'll circle back to them this weekend.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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How do you incorporate this much running with swim and bike? so much of the race(Oly,70.3 and mainly IM) are so bike heavy. Do you train less bike sessions during the week but in those sessions the duration is long? I.E. 3-4 bike sessions at 1:30-3hr? to make up time? Im just curious how to structure that much running with the amount of frequency needed.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [espejo09] [ In reply to ]
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When I was building miles, I went down to two 1 hr bike sessions during the week and one 1.5-2 hr ride on the weekend. I swam about the same as normal, 2-3 times per week but wasn't a nazi about getting hard or long sessions in. Only goal was to get in the pool.

after I hit 50 mpw for a few weeks I started adding cycling volume back in. Added another weekday ride and lengthened some of the weekday rides and lengthened the weekend ride. Started trying to get more volume in my sessions in the pool too but nothing dramatic.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, following up.

Duathlon: 6:12/mi, 26 mph, 6:13/mi. Fastest I'd ever run in a sprint before was 6:17/mi and I'm pretty sure I overbiked a bit in this duathlon (garmin/powermeter issues, didn't get any data).

Half marathon: they moved the date for this race to next weekend due to shortage of police in town this week with the super bowl going on. I can't race it next week so I just went out and ran one by myself.

Remember I set a 10k pr at a turkey trot last November of 40:43. I've never ran a standalone half and haven't ran a standalone 5k either. My best HIM run is 1:50.

So I wasn't really sure how to pace this thing. Figured with that and since I would be by myself I'd start conservatively around 6:40/mi. Ran there the first 5 miles or so no problem. Finished up running the rest around 6:30/mi for a 1:25:58.

Since I've never run one of these standalone I'm not really sure what it was supposed to feel like, but it surely didn't feel hard. My legs started to feel beat up the last couple of miles but that was it.

Anyway, I'm rambling at this point. Moral of the story is that this shit works!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Looking at the math of all this I have a few questions....

200 miles of running at an average pace of 9:00/mile is 30 hours per month, or 7.5 per week (just running). Given many amateur athletes highest volume weeks in the year might be 12 on the low end, up to 16-20 on the high end, is this a proper progression building in during the dark, cold, winter months? With 4x sessions of swim, bike added in plus 7.5 hours of running this build will get athletes to a minimum of 13.5 hours if they do 45 minute sessions of swim/bike added in.

How does one incorporate this into their week, with a 45 hour work commitment that has them on their feet and very active during the day working split shifts of 8-10 hours/day over a 10-14 hour period w/o commuting time factored in?

Do you consider treadmills to be incorporated into this?

How does one add in 4x/swims per week, when a 45-60 minute swim takes about 2 hours from leaving house/work to pool and back? Do you sacrifice a 25 minute minimum run to get this extra swim session in?

Would you recommend this for someone who has a previous month record of 120 miles but ZERO injury history? Any recs on running surfaces during the week, especially being in a northern snowing climate for not 6-10 weeks?

Why long run up to 2 hours? What's the value in a 2 hour long run versus 3 hours of running within a 12-24 hour time period?

What is your basic percentage of intensity distribution of run in a week? Based off HR, pace, or RPE?

Is this practical going into their first race of the season in May?

How does age factor into this. Would you chance this for 20 y/o m/f vs 40 vs 50, 60?

I don't disagree with anything you say, but I see this as borderline over the top of what many amateurs can practically do with the addition of life stress balanced into the equation.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [CU427] [ In reply to ]
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^^these are the questions we need answered
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [CU427] [ In reply to ]
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He's saying swim and bike a total of 4 times combined. Not 4 swims plus 4 bikes.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [CU427] [ In reply to ]
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CU427 wrote:
Looking at the math of all this I have a few questions....

200 miles of running at an average pace of 9:00/mile is 30 hours per month, or 7.5 per week (just running).

One random person's opinion: you should target hours instead of miles.

Dimond Bikes Superfan
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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ericlambi wrote:
CU427 wrote:
Looking at the math of all this I have a few questions....

200 miles of running at an average pace of 9:00/mile is 30 hours per month, or 7.5 per week (just running).


One random person's opinion: you should target hours instead of miles.


Yeah thats kind of why I asked that question to begin with, although I see more merit with time vs distance in biking or running as biking gives more variability with speed and the outcomes can be much different versus running.

And why 200, why not 150, or 225? What is it about 200 that is the "standard" that has been set?

Is that what the OP has seen through various different athletes to respond to best?

I guess that leads me to another question, is this a good blanket challenge for all to get a good training response out of, or just their personal opinion.
Last edited by: CU427: Feb 4, 17 16:56
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [CU427] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
why 200, why not 150, or 225? What is it about 200 that is the "standard" that has been set?
It was a nice round number when I was typing that post and far exceeds what the typical triathlete ran/still runs per month.

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Is that what the OP has seen through various different athletes to respond to best?
I've gotten fantastic results with athletes doing blocks of time at significant'y higher mileage. For instance I've seen people go from high 36 off the bike to high 33 off the bike from one season to the next. That's a game changer and race winning time drop. I've seen people drop 30-40 minutes off their IM run time, sometimes being the fastest runner in their age group by 5-15 min. hardly anyone has gotten injured when I get to control everything and most people avg'd 4-8 min faster in their half IM run splits through the season vs previous season run times

Quote:
I guess that leads me to another question, is this a good blanket challenge for all to get a good training response out of, or just their personal opinion.
Training works. volume works. More is more.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Quote:
why 200, why not 150, or 225? What is it about 200 that is the "standard" that has been set?
It was a nice round number when I was typing that post and far exceeds what the typical triathlete ran/still runs per month.

Quote:
Is that what the OP has seen through various different athletes to respond to best?
I've gotten fantastic results with athletes doing blocks of time at significant'y higher mileage. For instance I've seen people go from high 36 off the bike to high 33 off the bike from one season to the next. That's a game changer and race winning time drop. I've seen people drop 30-40 minutes off their IM run time, sometimes being the fastest runner in their age group by 5-15 min. hardly anyone has gotten injured when I get to control everything and most people avg'd 4-8 min faster in their half IM run splits through the season vs previous season run times

Quote:
I guess that leads me to another question, is this a good blanket challenge for all to get a good training response out of, or just their personal opinion.
Training works. volume works. More is more.

I see, but what about the previous questions I asked earlier....I just never got a response from them, feel free to pass on those already answered

Looking at the math of all this I have a few questions....

200 miles of running at an average pace of 9:00/mile is 30 hours per month, or 7.5 per week (just running). Given many amateur athletes highest volume weeks in the year might be 12 on the low end, up to 16-20 on the high end, is this a proper progression building in during the dark, cold, winter months? With 4x sessions of swim, bike added in plus 7.5 hours of running this build will get athletes to a minimum of 13.5 hours if they do 45 minute sessions of swim/bike added in.

How does one incorporate this into their week, with a 45 hour work commitment that has them on their feet and very active during the day working split shifts of 8-10 hours/day over a 10-14 hour period w/o commuting time factored in?

Do you consider treadmills to be incorporated into this?

How does one add in 4x/swims per week, when a 45-60 minute swim takes about 2 hours from leaving house/work to pool and back? Do you sacrifice a 25 minute minimum run to get this extra swim session in?

Would you recommend this for someone who has a previous month record of 120 miles but ZERO injury history? Any recs on running surfaces during the week, especially being in a northern snowing climate for not 6-10 weeks?

Why long run up to 2 hours? What's the value in a 2 hour long run versus 3 hours of running within a 12-24 hour time period?

What is your basic percentage of intensity distribution of run in a week? Based off HR, pace, or RPE?

Is this practical going into their first race of the season in May?

How does age factor into this. Would you chance this for 20 y/o m/f vs 40 vs 50, 60?

I don't disagree with anything you say, but I see this as borderline over the top of what many amateurs can practically do with the addition of life stress balanced into the equation.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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What's the mileage in comparison for something like this in swimming and biking? If running is 200 miles a month biking must be like 2k
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [CU427] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of your questions that you asked fall under personal coaching. I can answer those questions but we'd need to move it off line.

Treadmills are fine

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [CU427] [ In reply to ]
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I like running.

I like really long runs

A two hour run equals 20km pretty easy running. That means 10km per day the rest of the week with 1 day off. That doesn't seem onerous on its own. Two 15km runs and two days off even.

With bike and swim it gets harder to schedule.

With bike swim and job even harder.

With bike swim job and family....damn near impossible.

In the snowy north it would require a treadmill I think.


I do see the benefits of it for sure. That's a lot of endurance points.

If you are a really good swimmer and can go into winter maintenance that would be good.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, this is the last time I'm going to bump this thread unless someone has a question.

My previous best HIM run was 1:50. I started the full on ass challenge in October. Got to 50mpw by mid December and have been there since.

Yesterday at Galveston I ran 1:32 and won my age group.

Thank you desert dude!!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Congratulations! In addition to the 50 mpw how much swimming and biking are you getting in?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know if I've posted previously, but I'm going to see if I can hold 50 for the next four weeks. I easily hit 45mpw, but getting in the extra 5 is actually kind of hard. I'm at 6x a week now... should I bump up to 7 or 8?

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [mdtrihard] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks!

When I was building mileage I took my swim down to twice a week and bike down to 2-3 times a week. Once I got to 50mpw for a few weeks I went back to my normal 3x/w swim and 4x/w bike.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [cloy26] [ In reply to ]
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What does your week look like?

For 50 I was on a barryp 5/10/15 base, but when I could I added mileage to the easy 5 mile runs bumping them up to as much as 8.

Can you add 1-2 miles to 2-3 easy runs? That's only an extra 15 minutes on a run. That's probably easier than finding time to add an additional run.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Sean what a race brother!!! Congrats!!! Were you using any certain plan on TrainerRoad or just picking certain workouts? Congrats again.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [AdamL2424] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Adam!

I did the Oly base plan when I was building my run volume then moved onto the HIM build and specialty plans. I did the high volume build and the medium volume specialty. The only reason I didn't do the high volume specialty plan was they have a lot of 2hr rides during the week and I can't pull that off. I ride before work so 1.5hr is max I can do. I did add longer outdoor rides on the weekend than they had in the medium volume plan (in place of the ladder workouts) to compensate. The one big thing was I always tried to do the tempo brick work outside on my tribike. Otherwise I did all of the training on my road bike on the trainer.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Can you tell me what exactly you did?

Ive been building since feb for my 50mpw and last week was my first 50mpw. My legs are toast. Im also in TR build plan.

Tuesday thursday Friday saturday are bike with 8k run
Wednesdays are 16k run
sundays are 24k run
mondays are 8k run with swim
I swim 2-3 more a week but when I can cause of my work schedule.

Thanks and congrats on your AG win!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [CU427] [ In reply to ]
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At risk of being shot down I will have a crack at answering some of these. I will consider myself educated if I do get shot down though -

'200 miles of running at an average pace of 9:00/mile is 30 hours per month, or 7.5 per week (just running). Given many amateur athletes highest volume weeks in the year might be 12 on the low end, up to 16-20 on the high end, is this a proper progression building in during the dark, cold, winter months? With 4x sessions of swim, bike added in plus 7.5 hours of running this build will get athletes to a minimum of 13.5 hours if they do 45 minute sessions of swim/bike added in. '
- It depends in reality. Do you want to improve your run or not? Sticking with around the 10% rule, backing off where you need too, slowing down where you need to, I'd argue most can get there with the correct discipline and right plan.

How does one incorporate this into their week, with a 45 hour work commitment that has them on their feet and very active during the day working split shifts of 8-10 hours/day over a 10-14 hour period w/o commuting time factored in? ' - Again down to the individual. From a personal perspective, I use my lunch hour at work as productively as possible for triathlon training. I will on occasion run to the pool on a Saturday morning, and will on occasion run off the bike. Long runs are performed on a Thursday night when my son has gone to bed. I endeavour to eat as a family, help with the bedtime, and then my wife knows Im out for the rest of the evening and she can catch up on her soaps.

Do you consider treadmills to be incorporated into this? - Sure, its running isnt it?

How does one add in 4x/swims per week, when a 45-60 minute swim takes about 2 hours from leaving house/work to pool and back? Do you sacrifice a 25 minute minimum run to get this extra swim session in? -
You working on your run or the swim? Can you run to the pool? DD said it, this is where personal coaching plays a big part. For me, schedule and prioritisation is where a good coach earns his money. A lot of us, for the most part know what can make us faster, its how that what is built into our weeks thats key from a coaching perspective.

Why long run up to 2 hours? What's the value in a 2 hour long run versus 3 hours of running within a 12-24 hour time period? - Probably less than you think. Look at the bigger picture. There are some critics of mileage chasing, but, put simplistically, you get fitter by stressing the body, you either do that by running more, or by running faster. Its probably safer to run more, speed can be built in after. You dont nessacarily need to run faster in training to run faster when racing. The premise of this thread is based on getting your monthly mileage up, 2 hours straight or 1.5 + 0.5, wont make too much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

Speaking from personal experience, I put some big miles in over winter 2015/2016, and was probably at my best running I have ever been. All easy miles, but I was continually in the high 40s to mid 50s. This year, I've left it late, and spent more time on the bike in the winter. Guess what, bikings up, runnings down!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [dboatx] [ In reply to ]
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dboatx wrote:
Can you tell me what exactly you did?

Ive been building since feb for my 50mpw and last week was my first 50mpw. My legs are toast. Im also in TR build plan.

Tuesday thursday Friday saturday are bike with 8k run
Wednesdays are 16k run
sundays are 24k run
mondays are 8k run with swim
I swim 2-3 more a week but when I can cause of my work schedule.

Thanks and congrats on your AG win!

Thank you!

So you are biking 4x per week? And have 3-4 swims a week too? I'm impressed that you built up to 50mpw while keeping those constant, no wonder your legs are toast!

I started at 30mpw in mid October and built to 50 by mid December. Prior to this my running was inconsistent during the summer and I only averaged about 20mpw (was doing cycle focus), in the winter/spring I was consistently at 40.

During the build from 30 to 50 I only prioritized running. I cycled 1-2 times a week and swam 1-3 times a week as I could. Once I got to 50mpw for a couple of weeks and was handling it well, only then did I increase my biking back up to 3-4 times a week.

The 1-2 cycles were usually a VO2 trainer road workout early in the week and a 50-60 mile ride with my cycling club on the weekends. Some weeks I only managed the VO2 workout and some I only managed the group ride. Some weeks I substituted a 1 hr endurance ride for the VO2 if my legs felt bad.

When I was ready to ramp back up the cycling, that's when I started the HIM high volume build plan. I was pretty discouraged when the FTP test to start that plan I completely died 8 minutes in and estimated my FTP to be 20w lower than it used to be. I sucked it up and got to work. By the end of build I got those 20w back. It was probably just my legs being shot from the stress of all the extra running, and less cycling.

Once I was at 50, my weeks generally looked like this:

M: AM swim, 5 mile recovery run at lunch
T: AM trainerroad VO2, lunch 10 mile easy run
W: AM swim, 5 mile recovery run at lunch
TH: AM trainerroad (either endurance or over/unders depending on week), lunch 10 mile easy run
F: AM swim or trainerroad endurance, then either trainerroad brick workout or 5 mile easy run
S: Either trainerroad brick workout or long ride
S: 15 mile long run

To give some perspective on the pace of the recovery runs, my marathon pace now is probably between 6:30-6:45. If my legs feel bad I still run those at 9-9:30/mile.

At first I think it was important for me to have those easy days on MW. Once I started adding some tempo to one of the easy runs, I had to move those to Wednesday (when trainerroad has the tempo scheduled). Then a while later I started adding some different speed/hill stuff to the other easy run on Thursday lunch runs.

To add even more miles some weeks I would add 2-3 miles onto the recovery runs and got close to 60 several weeks doing that.

I hope this helps, keep asking questions if you have them.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [CU427] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
200 miles of running....average pace of 9:00/mile is 30 hours per month, or 7.5 per week (just running). Given many amateur athletes highest volume weeks in the year might be 12 on the low end, up to 16-20 on the high end, is this a proper progression building in during the dark, cold, winter months? With 4x sessions of swim, bike added in plus 7.5 hours of running this build will get athletes to a minimum of 13.5 hours if they do 45 minute sessions of swim/bike added in.

Could be a proper build up for some and not for others.
13.5h isn't a lot of training. Even for most triathletes and especially for the pointy end athletes, most with professional careers/kids/a wife/dogs/laundry/dishes that I typically work with.

Your question gets into the realm of what can work for me, it's not a general question that will benefit everyone it's a specific question. I suggest you re-read the posts I made early in the thread to better grasp the concept of the challenge.

In Reply To:
How does one incorporate this into their week, with a 45 hour work commitment that has them on their feet and very active during the day working split shifts of 8-10 hours/day over a 10-14 hour period w/o commuting time factored in?

This is a coaching question specific to your situation. For that I suggest working with a coach who can get to know your specifics and you two can come up with a plan. Or do a consult with a coach to have them answer your specific questions.

Treadmills are awesome tools, even though I've got groomed trails < 6 min run from my door, I still use the treadmill near weekly. If you search my posts, you'll see I'm a big proponent of treadmills and practice(d) what I preach. There's your winter solution.

In fact I'm heading to my fav treadmill after I type this, then going to the pool to do some more product testing for Kiwami.

In Reply To:
How does one add in 4x/swims per week, when a 45-60 minute swim takes about 2 hours from leaving house/work to pool and back? Do you sacrifice a 25 minute minimum run to get this extra swim session in?
This is a coaching question specific to your situation. See the above answer. It seems that you really need to talk with a coach. My take is that you're having a hard time reconciling the concept of a block of specific training focused on 1 thing vs incorporating this into your regular triathlon training.

In Reply To:
Why long run up to 2 hours? What's the value in a 2 hour long run versus 3 hours of running within a 12-24 hour time period?
2h for aerobic development. for most of the athletes I coach, 90min is no big deal, 2h is a bigger deal.

In Reply To:
What is your basic percentage of intensity distribution of run in a week? Based off HR, pace, or RPE?
It depends.

In Reply To:
Is this practical going into their first race of the season in May?
There is a reason why you do this in the off season. If you want to run fast & race fast in May this, as Sean H, among others has shown, is practical.

In Reply To:
I don't disagree with anything you say, but I see this as borderline over the top of what many amateurs can practically do with the addition of life stress balanced into the equation.


From your questions I have a few take aways

1. you aren't grasping the concept of the challenge. I'd respectfully ask that you go back and read the original posts, and there are 4 or 5 iirc where I talk about grasping the concept behind the challenge, what it's designed to do, when/how to implement it.

2. There is a difference between doing a focused block on something and a more balanced tri training program. There is a time/place for a focus block and time/place for more balanced training and a time/place for lopsided but yet somewhat balanced training. It might behoove you to discuss your particular situation with a coach to help you structure things short and long term

3. You're stuck in a box with regards to your thinking about how/when to train. You situation is really no different than other people's situations that I and other coaches deal with on a daily basis. Weird hours, demanding job, family, dog/cats/kids/laundry/dirty car/grass that needs mowing etc. You may just need help seeing outside the box you're in to see the possibilities of when and where you can do things differently.

4. It can be borderline over the top for some and well under the borderline for others. You're taking your situation and applying it to triathletes in general.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for your reply.

So u started in October and completed the challenge in Feb/March? What sort of tempo mins/distance did you start with? And you mentioned another speed work during the week. Was it track reps?
Was the 1:52 half marathon open or HIM?

Ive been doing sweet spot base since Jan and now on my second in HIM build. When i say toast i mean its heavy to start but when im running im okay. Like last night i did phoenix 90mins tempo with trainer road and today my legs felt heavy but ran 16k (10miles) the same pace as everyday. I also run only on treadmill for family and time reason.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [dboatx] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I started ramping up the mileage in October. Got to 50mpw in mid December and kept it there until tapering for the race Sunday (3 weeks out 40 miles, 2 weeks out 30 miles). I should note that I did have some recovery weeks every 3-4 weeks where I only did 40 miles per week.

The 1:50 was my best HIM run, did it twice. Had never run a standalone HM prior. In Feb after I had already noticed significant aerobic improvement in my run I ran a solo half marathon in 1:25:56 or something like that and I paced way too slow to start. I figure with better pacing and race environment I was good for 2-3 min faster.

Tempo I started out with 2 miles within the easy run, then built it up to 4-5 miles. Also did tempo off the bike sometimes when trainerroad had it scheduled.

Speed/hills, the only hill I have is a .2 mile diagonal up a levee. It's about 2.5 miles over to the levee. I'd run over there. Sprint up it 5-6 times then run back to work. Other speed stuff I did was 4 x 0.5 miles, or 2 x 1 miles. These were all within an 8-10 mile easy run. Not on the track, but balls to the wall.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for answering my questions!
Ive followrd your IG accnt
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Hey brian I have a question for you.
My runs are limited to treadmill 98% of the time cause of time and family restrictions. Am I missing any important stuff by running on TM? I am currently doing your challenge. I also add some hills on some runs. I use a garmin footpod to keep my distance close to accurate. Thank you
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [dboatx] [ In reply to ]
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No prob, good luck with it!

What is your handle?
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [dboatx] [ In reply to ]
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Treadmills are fine. They need to be between 1-1.5% to mimic normal outside neuromuscular motor patterning.

For instance the woodways I use 1.1-1.2% seem to feel like running outside. 1.5% feels uphill and 1% feels off compared to outside.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks very much Brian!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Can you actually run too slow for this challenge? I'm currently at about 28 mile/week and building. I run at about 10:30-11:00/mile. I can run every day at that pace, and double up on any given day with no stress. I just wondered if the run pace can be TOO easy? At that pace my Avg Hr is about 70% of max Hr. My 5k time is about 21:00.

Sorry if this question has already been asked somewhere in this thread.

Many thanks,

Will
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Barlow] [ In reply to ]
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Those older participants will love this thread as many will end up on the sidelines unable to go.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Barlow] [ In reply to ]
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In my opinion, 10 to 11 minute miles is going to be a bit too slow for a 21 minute 5K runner for most runs, assuming you're running on relatively flat terrain (or terrain that's not much hiller / rougher than the course you ran the 21 minute 5K on). You might do some recovery runs at that speed, but the majority of your running should be a bit faster, even when you're building up mileage.

My favorite running book is Faster Road Racing by Pfitzinger. It includes schedules for building up mileage to a variety of levels, including 45 and 60 mpw, as well as a lot of guidance in terms of what pace to run at. It recommends doing most of your runs *while building up mileage* at general aerobic pace, which should be at 70 to 80% of MHR. You also probably want to do one workout per week with some kind of higher speed running, even if it's just strides. And your long run should be at closer to 80% heart rate - that should be a higher level of effort run.

In my opinion, if you're going to devote the time necessary to running 50mpw, you might as well get full benefit out of it, so I think it makes sense to reference a book like the one I mentioned above or something similar.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Barlow] [ In reply to ]
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Seems a little slow. I guess we're of similar ability, I ran 20:50 in a 5km test earlier this year. I couldn't imagine running 11 min/mile, it just wouldn't feel right.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Bumping this thread in the spirit of the 100/100 and because I'm ramping up to the 50 mpw by Jan. 1st. Anyone else up for this tried and true OG run challenge? Read DD's first post then decide: Half assed or Full on Ass, your choice!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [thugbuster] [ In reply to ]
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been thinking about ideas for how to approach training this winter and glad this came up. 50 MPW for 16 weeks looks like it would yield great benefits for a number of reasons even coming from a running background
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [thugbuster] [ In reply to ]
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The full-assed challenge includes 4x swim and 4x bike. My pool is still closed, and my shoulder is f'ed up, anyway. My road bike is in 1000 pieces. I'm sure I could find my TT bike, in some dark corner....but, it would probably bite me.

Can I just run even more? :-)
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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pretty sure its 2xswim and 2xbike for 4 total
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [SnowChicken] [ In reply to ]
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SnowChicken wrote:
pretty sure its 2xswim and 2xbike for 4 total

TALK ABOUT HALF-ASSED!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
SnowChicken wrote:
pretty sure its 2xswim and 2xbike for 4 total

TALK ABOUT HALF-ASSED!


haha

the swim and bike need to go into maintenance mode. If anything you could probably swim 3-4x for 1000-1500 easy during challenge and be <:05/500 slower.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
Tom_hampton wrote:
SnowChicken wrote:
pretty sure its 2xswim and 2xbike for 4 total


TALK ABOUT HALF-ASSED!



haha

the swim and bike need to go into maintenance mode. If anything you could probably swim 3-4x for 1000-1500 easy during challenge and be <:05/500 slower.

Yeah, well. I'm the guy that did the 100/100 two years ago for both Swim and Run, simultaneously... along with Dr. TC.
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [SnowChicken] [ In reply to ]
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I've used it and saw great results in the past and its always good to remind folks every so often of the basic premise that if you want to be a good runner you have to run, lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard. Good Luck!!!
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Re: So you want a challenge? - Half assed or Full on Ass? You choose. Alternate title: Do it right or wasting your time. [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Bringing this one to the top for another year. (Customarily, it gets reposted on Nov 1, but there’s probably never a bad time to read it beginning to end.)
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