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Running faster with no (I really mean "less") speedwork
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BarryP
Jul 3, 08 8:01
Post #1 of 60 (2267 views)
Running faster with no (I really mean "less") speedwork
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EDIT:
I'm not suggesting that people stop training with intensity. The point of this thread is that many people do too much intensity at the expense of their much needed weekly mileage.
The title is a little misleading, so bear with me.
I stopped by the track on Tuesday to get in an easy 3 mile run. The regular track group moved to the park to do some trails that day, so I was by myself. In the middle of my run Andrew showed up to some sprints. Andrew is a solid duathlete who qualified for world's last year. He's really strong on the bike and not bad on the run. However, I always felt he was falling short of what he could be doing as a runner. He's a young guy and never really grasped the fundamentals of run training. In a nutshell, he was putting too many eggs into the intensity basket and not getting in the mileage that he needed. Our conversation over those 4 laps went like this:
Me: "So, what have you been up to?"
Andrew: "I just ran a marathon. It went pretty well."
Me: "How did you train for it?"
Andrew: "I just ran a lot of miles."
Me: "Did you hit the track much?"
Andrew: "Not really. No...not much."
Me: "Did you jump into any shorter races during this training?" (I'm going somewhere with this).
Andrew: "Yeah. Funny thing happened. I heard about this 5K on Saturday and signed up at the last minute. Then I got sick, but I ran it anyway. I figured I wouldn't do too well because I was sick and hadn't been doing any speed work, but then I ran a PR!"
This certainly hasn't been the first time I heard a story like this. I knew another guy at the same track who trained for a marathon. He cut back his track work a bit and ramped up his miles. In my opinion, he was doing too much speed and not enough distance to begin with. When he shifted his emphasis toward mileage, I though he shifted it right to the sweet spot for 5K training (and still too much speed for a marathon). Not surprisingly, 2 weeks before the marathon he broke 18 minute in a 5K for the first time ever. He choked in the marathon running 20 minutes slower than his BQ goal and 30 minutes slower than what his 5K time predicted.
It seems to be really common for people to underestimate the importance of simply running a lot. For 5K training I personaly like to see people still doing at least 80% of their running at pretty comfortable (Z1 or Z2) paces.....and this is during their most intense part of their training. At many points of the year they'll be closer to 95% easy running, where each week they try to add another 1-3 miles to their weekly total.
Anyway, despite the title of my thread, it isn't that you should be doing no speedwork. Its that you need to be careful about overdoing it at the expense of the much needed weekly mileage.
That's my story.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
(This post was
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by BarryP on Jul 5, 08 8:47)
tigerchik
Jul 3, 08 8:03
Post #2 of 60 (2261 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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:-)
I haven't really done any speedwork but have been averaging 6 mi a day for this year... something's working, I've won three of them, the others were 2nd and 3rd :D
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Fall break!
(This post was
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cdanrun
Jul 3, 08 8:14
Post #3 of 60 (2211 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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Meb runs something like 78% of his mileage easy when he's peaking for a marathon.
www.fleetfeetchicago.com
www.wmds-unleashed.com
Spindogg
Jul 3, 08 8:15
Post #4 of 60 (2200 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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110% agree here. I improved my half marathon time 3 minutes without one step of speed work. My pace at aerobic threshold (20 beats below Lactate threshold or zone 2 for most people) has improved a full minute since January. This approach works---as long as you get the miles in.
-----------------------------------------------------------
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matti58
Jul 3, 08 8:28
Post #5 of 60 (2156 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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I agree!
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 8:34
Post #6 of 60 (2115 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [cdanrun]
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Out of curiosity, do you know how long that peaking period is?
I was recently looking at Bordin's logs from 1988 and he was at about 90% easy/easyish running during peaking period. However, it seems like recently people are shifting toward a little more intensity, but at pretty controled levels with a lot of 10K - half marathon paced training.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
slammer
Jul 3, 08 8:36
Post #7 of 60 (2104 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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I have found this applies to swimming as well, my times this year have gone down with no set work, just long aerobic swims.
It hasn't worked as well on the bike though :-)
Andrew
I'm racing in '09...
Miami 1/2 marathon, Triple T, ?????????
M~
Jul 3, 08 8:38
Post #8 of 60 (2092 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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Barry...doesn't this sort of fit with the whole "spend X years building endurance, and then switch over to some speedwork?" I have been running for 6 years and have pretty much hit a wall with regards to speed so I started going out with a local running legend and his crew. He has a track/interval day and I have really been noticing a difference since incorporating speedwork this year.
The caveat being ,I think I am finally at the point where the endurance is no longer an issue and I feel I can safely throw in some speed work.
cdanrun
Jul 3, 08 8:39
Post #9 of 60 (2084 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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No, what I saw was a broad overview of his training. 2-4% of total volume was faster than 10K, up to 20% threshold (which probably includes MP) and the rest at base pace.
That's a lot of threshold work (as loosely defined as it was). Over 20mpw.
www.fleetfeetchicago.com
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(This post was
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by cdanrun on Jul 3, 08 8:49)
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 8:42
Post #10 of 60 (2072 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [cdanrun]
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Ahhh....okay. That's not as radical as it initialy sounded. That IS a lot of threshold work, but I'd hazzard to guess that a good bit of it is closer to marathon pace. He's definitely not banging out loads of 5K paced repeats.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
M4044AG'er
Jul 3, 08 8:44
Post #11 of 60 (2062 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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BarryP
I've PR'd every race I've done so far this year. I owe it to your postings......postings like this one:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
I'm a big believer in the LSD miles. It took several readings and numerous tries (it's hard running that slow) before I finally caught on. To go out and run a 10 miler and not feel like you even got a workout in.....how could that possibly make you faster?
I've taken minutes of my 5k times. I now have a shot at AG awards in the road races I enter. I haven't got one yet this year but were only talking a few 2nds faster on the pace.
Thanks!
Hurry Up Every Chance You Get
(formerly LuctorEtEmergo)
kdw
Jul 3, 08 8:47
Post #12 of 60 (2041 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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Barry,
What you described has definitely worked for me. Although, I just did speedwork yesterday for the first time in 8 months or so after having a nasty sprain this winter...3x1.5miles@5-10K pace. If I'm feeling really crazy, once in a while I might drop the distance down to 1K, but that is about the shortest interval I've run in the last few years, during which time I've PR'd at every distance I've run.( I'm 40)
If I remember, you were injured this winter as well so it is good to hear that you are back at it.
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 8:48
Post #13 of 60 (2036 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [M~]
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The other side of the coin is that you *need* to do some intensity.
What I find typicaly happens is that someone gets into running and just goes out and runs all the time, and they get faster. Then they discover intervals and improve a lot in just a few months. This gives them the false impression that they need to do a lot of intervals and this messes with their progress over the rest of their career.
Its kind of like eating spaghetti sauce that is made with only tomatoes. Then one day you discover galric and oregano and make the best damn tasting sauce you've ever had. Then, for the rest of your life you just keep adding more and more garlic and oregano and make it taste worse and worse. Despite the fact that spices enhance the flavor of the sauce, you still need to have a load of tomatoes in it.
For 5K training I typicaly like to see ~8% at just under 5K race pace, ~8% at 10 mile race pace, and ~1.5% of speed intervals a week during a 6-12 week race phase (2-3 times a year). The rest of the time I like to spend a lot more time building up mileage with much less intensity (arguments can be made as to how much, but the consensus is it will be less than during that 6-12 week period).
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 8:50
Post #14 of 60 (2026 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [LuctorEtEmergo]
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I'm glad its working out for you.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 8:56
Post #15 of 60 (2004 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [kdw]
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I just finished a 22 mile week (2-3-4-2.5-3-2-5.5). I'm adding about 10% a week. Desert Dude is helping me stay under control. There's nothing more that I want to do than to ramp up the mileage by 25% a week......which is usualy what injures me.
I was reading a plan by Tinman (formerly of Letsrun.com) where he has his guys do 2 workouts a week year round. 1 is a sustained tempo run and the other is intervals at ~45 minute race pace (that's a little slower than 10K pace for most). A thrid workout is a long run, the rest is filled in with easy running. Then, 6 weeks (plus 2-3 week taper) he trades the intervals for race paced workouts.
The benefits of the intervals, supposedly, is to be fast enough to stimulate V02max improvement, but slow enough to avoid risk of injury or burnout. The claim is that you can be within 2-5% of peak condition while training this way.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
dyl
Jul 3, 08 8:57
Post #16 of 60 (1999 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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yes yes yes!
I went from BOP runner to Boston qualifier through training for a 100 miler. The 100 miler was in the summer, after a bit of recovery I did a 10 miler for fun and noticed Iwas WAY faster and had done zero speedwork, jut run run run. So I decided to try and BQ at a fall marathon and did so by 9 minutes, and this was a marathon PB by 40 minutes.
Now I am adding speedword once a week, but what got me up to that next level was running a lot more, and more often. (6-7x a week rather than just 3-4x)
Daremo
Jul 3, 08 9:00
Post #17 of 60 (1985 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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Daniel's Running Formula ....... most of your stuff is Easy or Marathon pace since that develops your cardio and muscular adaptations needed for overall running.
Pretty simple "cake and icing" analogy that we always see here.
My first marathon that I trained for I used Higdon's Intermediate 1 plan which was pretty much just normal easy running with a few days of M pace mixed in. Average week was only in the 30 mile range. I ran a 5k in April of that year and did a 24:0X (on pretty much one month of run training after a 13 year running layoff). After my October marathon I did his 4 week recovery plan which mixed in some mile paced stuff. At the end of that period I ran a 20:30 5k and then just a week later ran a 19:30.
No track work, no tempo. Only about 3 sessions of mile repeats AFTER the marathon.
The next year I used one of the Pfitzinger-Douglas plans from Advanced Marathoning and went on to run a 3:12 and BQ. And a few weeks before the BQ I set a new 5k Pr of 18:36 at the time. Their plan had a lot more intensity with some form of faster work pretty much every week.
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Rick, USAC Level 3 coach
'08 remaining races - Baltimore marathon
Proud member of '08 Team Zoot Gu
bluemonkeytri
Jul 3, 08 9:20
Post #18 of 60 (1921 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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You are still an advocate of the tempo run, correct? By "speed work", you are just talking about intervals/track work.
www.momslasagna.org, because Every Bite Saves a Life.
nickc
Jul 3, 08 9:22
Post #19 of 60 (1910 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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An elite runner (2:13 marathon) from our running club went over to Kenya to train with some of their elite runners for a few months last year. He was amazed at how slow they ran most of their miles and how hard they ran their hard sessions. He told me "Slower than an easy run for a high school XC runners." He said they basically ran two hour easy runs twice a day every day. Of course they ran some intervals, fartlek and tempo runs but almost all the running easy pace (8-9 min/mile).
Here's the article on his trip:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/...316061_steidl17.html
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 9:48
Post #20 of 60 (1852 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [bluemonkeytri]
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Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm an advocate at training at virtualy all paces. I'm not saying that one should do no speed work. The story was just an example of how much more important it is that you get in a solid foundation mileage.
My generic formula puts most people at 1.5%, 8%, 8%, 82.5% for speed, V02max, tempo training, endurance training during the most intense phases of a schedule working for a 5K race.
For a half marathon (for most) it looks like this: 0.4%, 3.5%, 8.5%, 87.6% (with about 20% more total mileage)
and for a marathon (for most) it looks like this: 0.25%, 1.6%, 6.6%, 91.5% (with about another 10% more total mileage)
Of course programs will vary like Meb's increase in focus on the threshold and MP training.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
S McGregor
Jul 3, 08 9:50
Post #21 of 60 (1837 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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Barry, where's Tinman now?
BTW, anecdoctally, I work with a guy who ran a 2:27 at Boston last year (crummy conditions) and never ran faster than tempo. This was not a choice as he has trouble doing intensity for a physiological reason, so, he is resigned to pure volume overload, and is still able to run quite well. He plans to best that result this year on essentially the same program at Chicago. So, it's not that I'm advocating this approach as I think he could run a fair bit faster, but, it's a good case study of an example where the LSD approach can suffice if you want/need to be conservative.
Steve
www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
Oleander
Jul 3, 08 10:30
Post #22 of 60 (1745 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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Over a 3-month period this past winter, I took a full minute off my 5k TT simply by running frequently. (Tried for 6 days/week, 100/100 challenge.) I DID ALMOST NO TRACK OR TEMPO WORK OR RACING WHATSOEVER. It was mostly lollygagging, 30-40 min. runs. Probably did a tempo-ish run once every 3 weeks or so! That's it.
It was a very nice surprise ;) I wasn't even trying to get fast!
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 10:45
Post #23 of 60 (1711 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [S McGregor]
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Tinman has his own forum now called TheRunZone.com. Its definitely not an exciting forum, but he has some good nuggets of information over there.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
qcassidy
Jul 3, 08 10:45
Post #24 of 60 (1709 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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In Reply To
I was reading a plan by Tinman (formerly of Letsrun.com) where he has his guys do 2 workouts a week year round. 1 is a sustained tempo run and the other is intervals at ~45 minute race pace (that's a little slower than 10K pace for most). A thrid workout is a long run, the rest is filled in with easy running. Then, 6 weeks (plus 2-3 week taper) he trades the intervals for race paced workouts.
The benefits of the intervals, supposedly, is to be fast enough to stimulate V02max improvement, but slow enough to avoid risk of injury or burnout. The claim is that you can be within 2-5% of peak condition while training this way.
I believe Mottram follows a similar plan in that he does LT work basically year round.
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Jul 3, 08 10:54
Post #25 of 60 (1676 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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