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Running faster with no (I really mean "less") speedwork
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el fuser
Jul 4, 08 6:55
Post #51 of 60 (961 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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I just finished a 22 mile week (2-3-4-2.5-3-2-5.5). I'm adding about 10% a week. Desert Dude is helping me stay under control. There's nothing more that I want to do than to ramp up the mileage by 25% a week......which is usualy what injures me.
I've had good luck with Daniels suggestion to hold the current training load at least 3 weeks, and preferably 6.
I do a way more intensity than your guidelines too. An easy week would be 75% E and 25% T. A hard 'build' week would be 45% E / 20% M / 25% T / 10% I
Biggest week is only 4hrs / 30 miles.
I think this is great for short course, and it will let me fake my way through a 70.3. But I think more volume is needed (bike AND run) to really run to (at least my) potential in a 70.3. Yes, it pained me to say that.
BarryP
Jul 4, 08 10:00
Post #52 of 60 (891 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [el fuser]
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That's a good rule to follow. The problem is, when you start off at zero and run 8 miles in your first week, it takes 1 1/2 years to get to 25 miles a week! (I did in in a little over 2 months). ; ^ )
I will certainly keep your advice in the back of my head as my training load starts to creep closer to my previous levels.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
pdxjohn
Jul 4, 08 22:15
Post #53 of 60 (787 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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Barry,
Do you believe this approach applies to athletes over 50?
Khai
Jul 4, 08 22:43
Post #54 of 60 (779 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [Learn]
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I'm experimenting with an athlete right now by using his method. We'll see how it goes.
Waitaminute... you're
coaching
someone? That is a terrifying thought...
<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
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BarryP
Jul 5, 08 8:49
Post #55 of 60 (676 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [pdxjohn]
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I'm no expert on running over 50. The only major changes I know about people in your age range are that your easy runs we'll be closer to your race pace and that you could arguably use some weight training.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
Nacly
Jul 6, 08 16:44
Post #56 of 60 (503 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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In my opinion, If you're a triathlete, you need to be training like a triathlete - not a runner. There is nothing -from the context of triathlon training - to be gained by 5 days of running other than injury or fatigue or both. The primary reason runners spend a lot of time doing long slow runs is to build/maintain aerobic base....if you are also biking you are adding to this base with the bike rides and to a lesser extent with the swims, so you don't have to duplicate this with extra credit runs. Also, folks should be training with a plan. You should never do more than the plan, and you should typically not do less than the plan. If your plan is sound you shouln't get hurt or overtrained, and you will slowly improve in all three events. If you are doing workouts and can't articulate how that workout is making you a faster triathlete you should probably reevaluate why that workout is in your regime. If you are new to this, don't have much of a foundation, have been out of it for a while, or are coming back from an injusry start slow, start short and stop early, build from there in a methodical common sense fashion.
Other stuff...I am a forefoot runner. It ain't all peaches and cream. I don't have knee problems, but I have foot problems.
Running fast for triathlons is a different beast than just running fast.
BarryP
Jul 6, 08 18:26
Post #57 of 60 (439 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [Nacly]
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In my opinion, If you're a triathlete, you need to be training like a triathlete - not a runner. There is nothing -from the context of triathlon training - to be gained by 5 days of running other than injury or fatigue or both.
You do realize that there are plenty of succesful triathletes who run 5-7 days a week, don't you.
All I can say regarding your post is that I along with a handful of other coaches that I know have taken struggling triathletes who thought exactly what you wrote. We got them to increase their much needed aerobic base and they got faster. Would you seriously suggest to the two anecdotal cases above that they should never have increased their mileage and gone back to their old low mileage routines?
Just because you are also biking and swimming doesn't change your body's physiology.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
Nacly
Jul 6, 08 19:34
Post #58 of 60 (386 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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You do realize that there are plenty of succesful triathletes who run 5-7 days a week, don't you.
All I can say regarding your post is that I along with a handful of other coaches that I know have taken struggling triathletes who thought exactly what you wrote. We got them to increase their much needed aerobic base and they got faster. Would you seriously suggest to the two anecdotal cases above that they should never have increased their mileage and gone back to their old low mileage routines?
Just because you are also biking and swimming doesn't change your body's physiology.
I think the vast majority of your advice is spot on...but I also think, for triathletes, your high frequency running advocacy is completely wrong. Everyone is different, but I suspect most age groupers have a finite amount of time available for training. five days a week devoted to one thing is not attainable for most age groupers, it's not even attainable for most runners, and if you are running this frequently as a triathlete I will contend, that for most people, it is at the expense of something else. Furthermore, I would suggest that those triathletes who are successful triathletes with a 7 day a week running routine are successful triathletes in spite of their program.
I submit that you can get most of your aerobic gains from biking and provide the finishing touches with minimal frequency, but highly targeted running. I come from a competitive running background and understand about where my tops are for a given level of training and fitness, and several times, over several decades, have achieved what I believe are "close to top end" running speeds on a bike-run mix of training. There are inherent limitations to this approach, but they are mostly the limitations that are related to training for three different sports, but I have been happy with my triathlon and running results with this type of training.
If the struggling triathletes you reference are brand new to endurance sports, and you are cycling them through a concentrated running program, then perhaps I agree with your approach. My observation is that most newish runners don't really know how to run hard. But I still think that my approach would achieve the same results, albeit slower.
BarryP
Jul 6, 08 22:55
Post #59 of 60 (330 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [Nacly]
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I think the vast majority of your advice is spot on...but I also think, for triathletes, your high frequency running advocacy is completely wrong. Everyone is different, but I suspect most age groupers have a finite amount of time available for training.
Having a finite amount of time....or more correctly, a small amount of time, is a different story altogether. I certainly can't be expected to limit my advice to this crowd anymore than one can expect a thread on cycling gear be limited to the "I only have $30" crowd.
And since my advice has worked for a majority of the athletes that I and other coaches have applied it to, I hardly consider it "completely wrong."
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five days a week devoted to one thing is not attainable for most age groupers
Two workouts and 3 15-30 minute runs is not unreasonable.
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it's not even attainable for most runners,
What?!
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Furthermore, I would suggest that those triathletes who are successful triathletes with a 7 day a week running routine are successful triathletes in spite of their program.
So someone who adds a few days a week to their program and improves is doing it inspite of their program? Again....what?!
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I come from a competitive running background and understand about where my tops are for a given level of training and fitness, and several times, over several decades, have achieved what I believe are "close to top end" running speeds on a bike-run mix of training.
Yes, but this, by default, makes you unlike *most* triathletes. Most AG triathletes do not have the aerobic base that you developed as a competetive runner. I too come from a competetive running background and have been able to maintain near top speeds on 3-4 runs a week. I could have gotten faster on more running, but my time was better spent biking and swimming because I stood to gain more in those events by focusing extra attention in those areas.
The bottom line is, despite your intuition that my advice wouldn't work, it has proven to over and over again. All I can add to that is that if someone tries it and gets worse, then stop doing it and go back to what you were doing before or try something else.
But you also need to keep in mind that as a competetive runner, I can also easily get in 40 miles on 3-4 runs. A bad runner who has no foundation struggles to get in 20.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
mopak
Jul 7, 08 3:43
Post #60 of 60 (281 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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I actually think running more often can lead to less injuries. Not in all cases but definately in many cases. What I often see is quite fit multi sport athletes who do 2 hard sessions (intervals,tempo, hills etc) and a longish run and no other running. By leaving out those nice easy runs they don't condition their musculo-skeletal system at a level to tolerate the hard efforts of the 3 runs they do. Because they have a pretty good motor inside they can often hammer pretty hard on legs that haven't got the resilience that comes from years of a solid running base.
Easy, and I mean EASY runs of 15-30 mins on 2-3 other days would help them condition those legs.
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