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Triathlon Forum
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Running faster with no (I really mean "less") speedwork
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S McGregor
Jul 3, 08 10:56
Post #26 of 60 (1522 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [Learn]
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Haven't you ever been to LRC???? Lydiard is God! ;)
Steve
www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
jyeager
Jul 3, 08 11:07
Post #27 of 60 (1508 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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I'm with you on the mileage thing.
I would generally PR every season in HS/College right at the beginning of the year. I would be coming off 100 mile weeks in zone 3 98% of it. I might do a couple of miles of longer intervals here and there.
People get caught up in training all the energy systems in the wrong ratios. For a 5k runner on up, you spend all but 1 minute of that metabolizing glycogen aerobically.
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 11:13
Post #28 of 60 (1498 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [jyeager]
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Wow. Were you really running faster at the beginning of the season than at the end?
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
h2ofun
Jul 3, 08 11:16
Post #29 of 60 (1486 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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Speedwork, what is speedwork?
I do 100% LSD which I hope keeps me from getting hurt. Slower, but
healthy is much better than watching from home.
Dave
MyAthlete.biz GPS
Bringing families into your racing
tyrod1
Jul 3, 08 11:27
Post #30 of 60 (1459 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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little off topic, but Barry, what do you think of pose running method?
i am trying to minimize damage to my aging knees (60+) and over past 20 years have experimented with heel toe and midfoot. i don't know whether i favor one or the other...i seem to do both ok, though running faster i think midfoot is a little more natural.
is there key determinant ie foot structure (high arch vs flat foot) that suggests best running form?
also, looking at some of the posts does one have same foot strike running fast (say 6 minute mile) vs. lsd @ say 9:20...is it more stride length vs turnover? do the kenyans use same footstrike running 9 minute miles as racing?
am i making more out of this than i should?
thanks for all your posts...
tigerchik
Jul 3, 08 11:35
Post #31 of 60 (1449 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [slammer]
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I have found this applies to swimming as well, my times this year have gone down with no set work, just long aerobic swims.
This will only work with swimming to a point - your technique is probably improving, you're developing all the neuromuscular patterns - if you want to get even faster, start acting like a swimmer and do sets, on intervals*
*threshold and vo2 max. threshold and vo2 max. threshold and vo2 max. if you get bored with that see what you can go for a 200 fly ;-)
_________________________________________________________
noel noel
slammer
Jul 3, 08 11:41
Post #32 of 60 (1430 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [tigerchik]
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I used to act like a swimmer and no one liked me ;-)
For the time I'm willing to invest I have dropped my 2k open water swim down to the low 27's so that is good enough for me.
I still think swimmers are missing some of the benefit of maintaining your technique when you are tired...that is where I have made gains for sure.
Andrew
I'm racing in '09...
Miami 1/2 marathon, Triple T, ?????????
stevebs
Jul 3, 08 11:50
Post #33 of 60 (1404 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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Barry - Count me as another success story. Last year I suffered a hamstring tear early in the season while pounding out an intense track workout (which I had been doing once a week for a few months in an effort to gain overall speed). I missed the entire season, and had to rethink my entire training strategy. After reading Daniels and your posts, I went to 5-6 20 minute runs per week at a very easy pace, then gradually increased the time on a couple of those days to where my long runs were 90-120 minutes. Once I got over my ego and carefully considered what you and Daniels had to say and applied to my training on a consistent basis, I saw real results. No speed work at all, but every three weeks or so I did a tempo run. The results have been great - I'm faster, my running base is much more fundamentally sound and I feel great. And my swimming and biking haven't suffered at all. Thanks again for the running pointers that you post here.
"The end of an argument or discussion should be, not victory, but enlightenment." - Joseph Joubert
jyeager
Jul 3, 08 12:03
Post #34 of 60 (1373 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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Yes, quite consistently.
When the coach would have us taper our mileage down and increase intensity in hopes of obtaining our 'peak' I would get slower and slower.
My freshman year in college I got bumped off the varsity spot for regionals because of this phenomenon happening yet agan. I went back to running long (100 mile week) when an injury to a teammate put me back on varsity just a few days before regionals. At the regional meet I had one of the best races of that season.
I'm sure I was a fluke, yet it's hard to know because in high school (and even college) no one else ran that much.
masterslacker
Jul 3, 08 12:18
Post #35 of 60 (1346 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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It's not like you want to just do junk miles although everyone needs a good "base" before starting to put in some quality workouts. I guess you're advocating that when push comes to shove get the miles in rather than speedwork.
I always take quality over quantity when running but that works for me as everyone's body responds differently.
-----------------------------------------------------
http://ironmanpdx.blogspot.com
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 12:27
Post #36 of 60 (1325 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [tyrod1]
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Pose has worked for some but not for others. I can't say much on it than that.
As I get faster, more and more of my weight shifts toward the forefoot. I personaly believe it has a lot to do with your body's individual mechanics. I don't find myself being effecient on the mid foot until I hit about 4:40 per mile pace.
Having said that, my heel strike is not crashing on the heels but rather a quick flick from heel to forefoot with my ankles, hips, and shoulder all in line.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 12:33
Post #37 of 60 (1308 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [masterslacker]
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It's not like you want to just do junk miles although everyone needs a good "base" before starting to put in some quality workouts. I guess you're advocating that when push comes to shove get the miles in rather than speedwork.
I always take quality over quantity when running but that works for me as everyone's body responds differently.
In the end you have to do what's best for you. Hopefuly after some experience one can figure out what side of the fence they need to train on to improve. By and large, triathlete just don't get in the mileage that they need......but that certainly doesn't mean that its the case for everyone.
Not that I need to tell you this, but the key is to make sure that high intenisty and lower mileage is done because it has proven to work better than high mileage and low intensity, rather than because of some sort of preconceived notion that its the way to train without ever having tried the other (which seems to be more common in younger guys.....its an ego thing).
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
desert dude
Jul 3, 08 12:34
Post #38 of 60 (1307 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [masterslacker]
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I always take quality over quantity
For a great % of time that quality will be the quantity
Brian Stover
http://accelerate3.com
Learn
Jul 3, 08 12:36
Post #39 of 60 (1299 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [S McGregor]
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Dunno what LRC is, but yes, he is God.
I'm experimenting with an athlete right now by using his method. We'll see how it goes.
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 12:36
Post #40 of 60 (1297 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [jyeager]
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I'm thinking it could be one of a few reasons:
1) Your training load was too high in the summer and you became overtrained as the season carried on, hence the slower times.
Or
2) Your training load was too low during the season after cutting the mileage, causing you to lose fitness.
Or
3) You simply have to keep running high milegae to maintain your aerobic base.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
jyeager
Jul 3, 08 12:55
Post #41 of 60 (1266 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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I'm thinking it could be one of a few reasons:
1) Your training load was too high in the summer and you became overtrained as the season carried on, hence the slower times.
Or
2) Your training load was too low during the season after cutting the mileage, causing you to lose fitness.
Or
3) You simply have to keep running high milegae to maintain your aerobic base.
Or
4) Even with 50 miles/wk the intensity of the speedwork caused overtraining.
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 13:00
Post #42 of 60 (1256 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [jyeager]
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How did the rest of the team respond?
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
jyeager
Jul 3, 08 13:19
Post #43 of 60 (1214 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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How did the rest of the team respond?
Hit or miss...later in the season as we focus on one big meet a lot of guys would choke in that meet, but it didn't seem to be due to the training routine.
A couple of good runners would respond well to that and continue to improve up through the final meets. I can't recall the trend (if any) for the entire team.
At least no one else seemed to slow down like me.
Tri2HaveFun
Jul 3, 08 13:29
Post #44 of 60 (1200 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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Worked great for me as well. All my training runs are done at an easy pace. My only speedwork is racing about every other week. I've run about 1400 miles so far this year and have PRed 10 times in distances ranging from 2 miles to marathon. Many of the PRs have been by significant amounts. The marathon was a PR by almost 27 minutes and almost 10 minutes under the BQ time I needed. At age 52 I'm having my best year of running ever.
Don
Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!
mopak
Jul 3, 08 16:43
Post #45 of 60 (1124 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [Tri2HaveFun]
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My best times for 400m and 800m were both ran off marathon preperations. Both times I had done monster weeks (160-200kms) then backed off a little and raced the shorter events for a change up from my usual 3-5km track racing. I also ran pb's at all other distances during these times of big mileage. Regular racing and plenty of hilly fartlek work seemed to keep me sharp even for the shorter races.
Rob
Jul 3, 08 17:00
Post #46 of 60 (1099 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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I just finished a 22 mile week (2-3-4-2.5-3-2-5.5). I'm adding about 10% a week. Desert Dude is helping me stay under control. There's nothing more that I want to do than to ramp up the mileage by 25% a week......which is usualy what injures me.
Funny you mention this- for many years of coaching, I was always the big advocate of 10% a week, periodized progression. Few months back, a study came out (GRONORUN) which piggy-backed some of the Vancouver Sun Run study...with a pretty good sample size (n=500+), they actually were able to shoot some holes in the "no more than 10% weekly increase" theory as it applies to volume.
Since then, I've carefully steered away from the 10% dogmatic approach, and focused more on the load/recovery relationship.
...Let's just say that with a couple of my athletes, there are some microcycles where the volume has increased nearly 35-40%, and with recovery and full adaptation, it's blown away the performance gains from "10% weekly"
*Note* I'm not at all advocating the simplistic approach many would take with hard/easy days, 7 day microcycles, 3 on/1 off, or any other warped view of periodization, but rather more emphasis on a large volume overload, with complete recovery, that is dependent on a positive adaptation. The real trick is knowing how someone has achieved adaptation.
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 17:04
Post #47 of 60 (1091 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [Rob]
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My problem is that I'm too injury prone to make such jumps. As evidence, I just looked through my logs and my last three major injuries happen to corelate to the last three times I made big jumps in training load.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
Rob
Jul 3, 08 17:31
Post #48 of 60 (1065 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [tyrod1]
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i think midfoot is a little more natural.
Then this is probably suggesting your "best running form."
As far as the Pose methodology, I'm sure if you're referencing it you've been to Dr. Romanov's website. Many of the concepts that Pose instructs on have been mainstay in biomechanics and coaching for awhile (such as foot turnover/cadence, COG relative to footstrike, and mental attention to detail).
Very often, cummulative injury cycles for runners is representative of the time it takes to pronate. The more time spent pronating, the more likely certain "common" injuries develop such as knee and lower leg stress. Secondary to this is the tolerance and amount of stress the tissues can take. In other words, more time spent on foot contact, the more stress place on the body. More stress on the body, the more the tissue must absorb (tissue being osteo, muscular, cartilage, pick one). Tissue has a "break point", and then we as runners and endurance athletes start looking for the magic pill to figure out and cure the ailment. Roughly 40% of all run injury is to the knee- Romanov knows this, so he's quick to point to an EXTREMELY biased study indicating "50% reduction in knee stress" for runners who switched to pose.
Funny thing is, the same study also indicates nearly a 30% increase in ankle load and stress (which is not published on the website)...so do you want to trade one ailment for the other? Also have to remember that running is one of the highest chronic stresses one can put on the body...use this analogy...you're getting shot by gun...one is a desert eagle .50cal, the other is a S&W .45cal. One might be a smaller caliber and have less "stress", but it's still an f-in big bullet.
Additionally, there is more research that is not made too public in the land of Pose which actually indicates a significant lack of run economy when using Pose. The three factors for run performance are vo2max, speed at AT, and RE.
In a nutshell, get your cadence up to 90strides/min (on one side), recover fully from workouts, and don't be a slave to 7day cycles for your training, with a long day on "x" day, and a speed day on "y". Body might fit very well into a 4 week circadian rhythm, but it doesn't mean that it should also be crammed into 7 day microcycles.
Rob
Jul 3, 08 17:36
Post #49 of 60 (1057 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [BarryP]
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Yes, but did you
fully
recover? Or did you make a big jump, and "stay on track" by getting in that next day's scheduled workout simply because it was there?
It's a common theme- we (endurance athletes) have a "schedule", and the schedule has a bump in volume (let's say distance). But to "stay on track", we put the bump in there, and don't allow time to recover. Very often because of obsession about the weekly volume, or we see other runners handle the stress and overload. If we had the bump, and truly allowed for full recovery, the injuries that sideline us from chronic overuse would be much less.
mopak
Jul 4, 08 6:07
Post #50 of 60 (896 views)
Re: Running faster with no speedwork [Rob]
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I agree Rob. My main causes of injury are my ego and my need to meet arbitrary training stats. If I keep a handle on those partcular things then I don't usually get injured. But all to often the ego or the need to have a better training week win out and I do that run that I should have skipped.
I was actually a good boy today. I have had a bigger than normal week of running and riding (changed work hours) but chose to skip a run today as the throat is a little scratchy.
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