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Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses?

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QC Roth

Jul 30, 08 4:24

Post #126 of 173 (2141 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [RobInOn] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dear RobInOn,

thanks for your message. I really forgott to mention the crowds, for me it is normal :-) they really do push. In 08 we had the worst weather conditions eversince and still about 90.000 came out to chear on the athletes. The people living here and our volunteers really share our passion and this is also the reason why we were able to succeed after we decided to to not sign anymore with WTC and why we are bigger and better than before.

See you in 09, if you have any questions, just let me know.

All the best,

Felix

QC Roth

Jul 30, 08 4:40

Post #127 of 173 (2127 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [crmartin9] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

I could care less about this nonsense about pacing (not drafting) off of men. If you find someone out there to pace off of (whether it was preplanned or not), more power to you. That's racing in my book. Runners do this all of the time. Honestly, when a race like Roth actively wants someone to come in and break world records, I'm surprised they don't go out and hire Bjorn Andersen or another swim-bike stud to pace Macca to T-2.

The issue I personally would like Belinda to address is why she was wearing Oakley Thumps on the run. I saw them clear as day when I passed her on the run around the 9 km marker. I don't know the rules in Europe, but in the US that kind of crap is an automatic disqualification. I volunteered at a local tri last weekend that had a lot of newbies and I had to spend a lot of time at the T-2 exit asking people to take off their iPods. In my opinion, it's really bad for the sport when the best of the elite are setting a bad example for the newbies like this.

Other than my pet peeve about wearing headphones during a race, congrats on an awesome race.

Chris

Hi Chris,

This rule and also the rule that you are not allowed to open your top more than 15 cm on the front (if you wear a tri suit that opens on your back you could open until your bum) is nonsense in my opinion. The German Triathlon Federation (DTU), our governing body had to include those rules this year, they were absolutely new and we, as well as the athletes were informed only weeks before the race. Norbert Kehl, the head referee of DTU and me sat together to discuss this. We saw that problem from different perspectives and came to the conclusion that we will inform the athletes about the rules and that they have to obey them, until we can chance it for 09. You will not believe how many athletes need their i-Pod for the marathon, especially the ones who finish late. Why should they be forbidden? Security? No way, our run is 100% closed to traffic. On the bike I don't discuss, it would be too dangerous. On the run the marshals asked the athletes to take it out, but Norbert Kehl and me didn't want them to give penalties. For the 15 cm rule, if we would have had temperatures over 35� C as we had before, I am happy if the athletes try everything to cool themselves down. We will see now for a change for next year together with the Federation. The i-Pod rule is also not good for the pros, we had several that have Oakley as their sponsor, who get a prem for wearing them during the course. So Belinda and others were asked not to play music, but were allowed to still wear them by the Federation.

All the best,

Felix

crmartin9

Jul 30, 08 5:59

Post #128 of 173 (2077 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [QC Roth] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Felix,

I thank you for taking the time to respond to my concern. I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion in regards to wearing headphones during the run, for all competitors, fast or slow. I will argue that wearing headphones while running is a safety issue. Particularly on a course like Roth with most of the run on a relatively narrow canal path (compared to a wide, closed road), competitors need to aware of their surroundings and be able to hear people coming up behind them. In the case of Belinda, I passed her when she was still in the lead of the race so she was surrounded by media motorcycles and a pace cyclist. We came up on an aid station together and the first lead men were passing in the other direction with their media motorcycles and pace cyclists. That's a lot of traffic in a small confined space and in the hypothetical situation that I had needed to yell out "On your left" or something similar to let her know I was passing before we collided, I'm not confident she would have heard me.

I may be in the vast minority, but I believe no one should wear headphones while running under any circumstances, whether it is racing or training. While out on training runs at home, I've passed numerous recreational runners who didn't hear me approaching from behind who then panic and swear at me because they had thought I was some sort of attacker. It's not my responsibility to try to shout above the volume level of your iTunes to let you know I'm approaching. I've always told athletes that I've coached that running with an iPod is the difference between training and exercising.

Thank you for putting on such a fantastic race. It was my first time at Roth and it truly was an amazing experience between the race organization, the crowd support, and the incredible atmosphere. My biggest fear now is that Roth has ruined my standards and I won't be able to come home and enjoy our races in the US as much now that I've seen what it's like when iron-distance racing is done right.

Best,
Chris

QC Roth

Jul 30, 08 6:44

Post #129 of 173 (2056 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [crmartin9] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dear Chris,

Many thanks for your answer and your compliment, which I will pass on to the team and the volunteers, because without them we could not do anything.

About the i-pod, I do understand your point, I don't run or bike with an i-pod as well, but there are many athletes that need it. I had a devastated woman in the office crying as she thought she would not finish the race without having her i-pod for the marathon.
After speaking with the volunteers, marshals and police man on the run, they also said they didn't see it as a problem as normally the volume is not on max anyway. Those athletes need to communicate themselves and are also aware of the problem that others could not communicate with them if the music is too loud. If it would get to a point that it is problematic then it would be necessary to envorce it. I think with all rules there are always different opinions and points to see, at the end of the day you can never make everybody happy, but generally I think as long as it doesn't get problematic it is ok as it is.

Thanks for racing with us this year and hope the weather didn't harm you too much.

Yours in sport,

Felix

Slowman

Jul 30, 08 8:12

Post #130 of 173 (2016 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [QC Roth] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Felix: i may very well take you up on your kind offer for next year.

i am a big fan of Roth, because of the hard work you've done, and because i think it's important that races other than ironman are big, and well-attended, and important (it's not that i'm not a big fan of ironman, i am, but i think it's healthy for the sport when various companies have ownership of the big races).

my critique of, or suggestion for, races like yours and also IM austria, is simply this: world bests are going to get threatened or set. you know that in advance. athletes go there with that intention. therefore, what you might want to consider is paying a little bit of money to have professional course certifiers do what they do, and then advertise their results to your competitors, and to interested spectators like me. i'm not saying this because i think your course is short, simply because, in order to preserve the dignity of the records that will be set there, course certification will pay you dividends (and i don't mean you certifying your own course, or an insurance company certifying your course, but others certifying it for you that do course certification for a living). i don't think you have to put up a lot of money for a world record. the athletes' sponsors will bonus them for a world record, and they'll come to take that world record at your course. the best money you could pay is not the money you pay for a WR bonus, it's what you pay to have your course certified. and yes, i know that nobody has his course certified in triathlon. i can't think of a better race, and a better race director, to pioneer that process!

as for belinda, i take your word that she did not draft. of course, i did not accuse her of drafting. how could i, since i wasn't there? my concern is for what appears to be "outside interference." it does seem that she has a habit of having her husband ride within a very few meters of her. if you don't think that's a problem, then that's fine. if she doesn't think that's a problem, fine. but i do, and others will, because it has the appearance of being not fair to the other female competitors in the race. it's very easy to get me and others to stop writing and talking about this. just don't do it anymore. for her to have been commented about this before (i did so after last year's roth race) and for the practice to continue, it causes me to wonder what the benefit must be.

felix, congratulations on putting on a great race -- yet again!

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

fred_h

Jul 30, 08 8:17

Post #131 of 173 (2005 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [crmartin9] [In reply to]	Can't Post

[I may be in the vast minority, but I believe no one should wear headphones while running under any circumstances, whether it is racing or training.]
x2

Fred.

Kensho

Jul 30, 08 8:38

Post #132 of 173 (1986 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote:

what you might want to consider is paying a little bit of money to have professional course certifiers do what they do, and then advertise their results to your competitors, and to interested spectators like me

How did you miss this?

Quote:

I insured 100.000 USD last year with Allianz (one of Germany�s biggest insurance companies) for a new world record. They came and measured everything and only then signed the agreement with me. The course 07 and 08 were exactly the same.

Perhaps you missed the part about Belinda too... and so continue to disrespect one of the best women athletes in the sport. Weak.

gossamer

Jul 30, 08 9:31

Post #133 of 173 (1953 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [tuneoutthenoise] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"How did you miss this?"

how did you miss *this*? "and i don't mean you certifying your own course, or an insurance company certifying your course, but others certifying it for you that do course certification for a living"

i don't think roth's folks did anything wrong. i'm simply saying that if you're going to have world records set on your course, which will be the case at roth, it's a good policy to do what marathons do, which is to have their courses certified by those who do this professionally. this would mean that roth would do something that nobody else does in triathlon. it's not that roth is negligent, it's that roth, because of the speed of its course, has an opportunity to take the lead, and break new ground, and bring our sport to the next level. course certification in triathlon is not something i've just decided to take up. i've been writing about this for years. why am i singling out roth? because roth is a place where world records are routinely set. i think austria ought to do the same thing. i've got plenty of private emails and private messages, from people who did roth, telling me what they got on their garmins for the ride and run courses. the best way to put all this to bed is for roth to do what the berlin marathon does.

"Perhaps you missed the part about Belinda too... and so continue to disrespect one of the best women athletes in the sport. Weak."

i don't think a person's strength or athleticism; or how nice one is; or how well known one is; grants that person a free pass as regards the rules. tyler hamilton is a nice guy and a strong rider. floyd landis is a nice guy and a strong rider. leonardo piepoli is a nice guy and a strong rider. so what? of course, belinda is in a different class, because all these athletes i just mention were popped for drugs or suspended because of the suspicion of drugs, and belinda has no such cloud over her head. my point is that the rules are the rules, and "outside interference" is a rule. when chuckie v, who is also a nice guy and a strong rider, had a beer on the queen k highway, he was suspended because he broke the rules. being nice, being strong, being a good rider, being well respected and well known, none of this has any bearing on the rules.

in other words, i can either disrespect an athlete (as you say i'm doing) or i can disrespect the rules. if i have to choose between the two, i'll choose to respect the rules.

that said, i'll stipulate that this rule is an open question: if a person you know rides beside you, just in front of you, or just behind you, for virtually the whole bike ride, and does this race after race, is this outside interference when that person has legally entered the race just like everyone else? i think it is. but perhaps it's not. reasonable people can disagree about this. if justin rides in belinda's proximity for almost the whole bike ride, is this okay? if you think it is, that's a reasonable point of view. i think this is a teaching moment, both for course certification and for this issue of outside interference. we can either snipe at each other, or we can decide where our sport should go from here. i'd rather take the latter route.

signature here

Kensho

Jul 30, 08 9:43

Post #134 of 173 (1938 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [gossamer] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tell me this.. WHO did the certifying for the insurance company? A couple accountants from the claims division?? I think not.

I'm still no seeing where Belinda broke any rules? She had a freakin draft marshal next to her the whole ride.

I was at IMC the year she won there. I saw her riding clean (I was following the leaders for most of the bike), and all the assholes were claiming she sucked wheel. WTF. Bunch of jealous Lisa Bentley fan crybabies...

BTW, Lance was granted a free pass from the rules for 7 years due to his philanthropic work... and he's a dick.

STJay

Jul 30, 08 10:10

Post #135 of 173 (1907 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [gossamer] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"my point is that the rules are the rules, and "outside interference" is a rule. when chuckie v, who is also a nice guy and a strong rider, had a beer on the queen k highway, he was suspended because he broke the rules. being nice, being strong, being a good rider, being well respected and well known, none of this has any bearing on the rules."

Show me where she was popped for outside interference at Roth. Show me where she was penalized for it. Show me where she was penalized for drafting. It seems clear the race was doing its due dilligence. Belinda is being unfairly tried by a jury of truly uninformed forum goers�contrary to forum rules. Her career path, her ability to earn a living, is being slagged and jeopardized based on innuendo, not fact.

I have an email in to Dan on this subject; the forum has rules. One is that there is no trial by internet. I don't care if she is a teammate of my wife, I'd call bullshit on all this even if she was a race rival. As an on-course journalist, I've seen her race numerous times, and she is, on my clock, one of the cleanest athletes on the bike. Ive also ridden and swum with her, in years past and have watch her train on the track, in the pool and on the bike for the last month. Her improvement the last couple years is the result of hard work, and certainly not shady tactics; both she and Justin have better morals. I know, "nice guys whatever," but few are as outspoken about two subjects they abhor: dopers and drafters. She would seem the greatest hypocrite if found to have been drafting. I've not been to cover a Challenge race, but I honestly believe Felix did exceptional due diligence for his race; I've heard nothing but good things about his races. So I believe that while they were close, they were not drafting. If she was being shadowed by Justin all day as the splits seem to allude to, I'm sure either or both would have been given at least a warning, or a penalty, by a stringent race officiating crew.

But the simple fact is, she is being hung by a collection of splits, which conclude nothing. It seems as though Dan left a petrol-soaked rag in the gas tank, and y'all are happy to sit there and help it explode to your own amusement. Her livelihood is being disparaged on some splits, but no true foundation of fact. The race director has even come in to defend his race officiating. If anyone had been subject to scrutiny in the race, it was she.

I'd hope this insinuation would go away, perhaps some bigger people would issue an apology to her, because one of the top women in Ironman racing today deserves better than a bunch of ill-informed age groupers raking her over the coals.

Jay Prasuhn

Slowman

Jul 30, 08 10:17

Post #136 of 173 (1900 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [tuneoutthenoise] [In reply to]	Can't Post

" Tell me this.. WHO did the certifying for the insurance company? A couple accountants from the claims division?? I think not."

i don't know. again... for the third time, or maybe the fourth... i don't think roth did anything wrong. what i'm saying -- and i've been consistent about this for some years now, my tune hasn't changed -- is that we need to bring our sport up a notch. companies have specialties. course certifiers are specialists. if a course certification company started issuing insurance, i don't think people would buy it. when insurance companies start issuing course certifications, that's good, but what we need is something better; something not currently done in triathlon; and that is for course certification to make its way to our sport, if and when we want people to take these times seriously. that's why, when benny van steelant ran a 29+ 10k at the end of Du Worlds in 03, i wrote then about course certification. we don't have insurance companies certifying berlin, rotterdam, paris, london, marathon courses. we have course certifiers doing it. we ought to have that in triathlon, and roth would be a beneficiary of it. if roth is going to market its race on the basis of the fast times and world bests set there, then roth is the natural leader when it comes to taking this next step. roth isn't doing anything wrong by not having its course certified by course certification specialists, but roth will add weight to its claims of a fast, fair, course should it take this step.

"I'm still no seeing where Belinda broke any rules? She had a freakin draft marshal next to her the whole ride."

there is a rule called "outside interference." this is when you get help from someone outside the race. when during the run leg a coach runs alongside his athlete for 3 miles, or 10 miles, or even a quarter-mile, that athlete doesn't even get a penalty, the athlete gets a DQ. the question is, is it outside interference when someone attached to an athlete enters the race in part, or primarily, to ride in close proximity to that athlete for virtually the entire ride? in belinda's case, she says her husband was almost never close to her. the chip mats seem to indicate otherwise. this is a pattern that extends to other races, and indeed belinda and i had an exchange about this very habit after last year's roth triathlon.

maybe you're right. maybe this isn't breaking the rules. i think it is, but i also can be persuaded that it isn't, if most of the rest of the sport says that it doesn't consider this a violation. but, look. belinda is a great swimmer/biker, and she's an adequate runner. there is value for belinda to get as big a lead as she can get off the bike. there is motivation to do whatever is necessary for that to happen. that's why this habit of justin and belinda showing remarkably similar chip pad splits comes under scrutiny, and "outside interference" is the rule in question. justin would not have to pulling her in his draft in order for him to be aiding her. if he provides her no aid, then fine, but then why does he consistently seem to ride in close proximity to her, that is, why do they seem to find each other after the swim, only to come off the bike together, race after race?

how strong she is on the bike, how nice she is, how much money she gives away to charity, how much she can bench press, how often she mows the lawn of her elderly neighbors, none of that really matters when it comes to the rules. she either is or isn't breaking the "outside interference" rule when her husband rides just in front of alongside or just behind her. belinda is not the only top female athlete who seems to do this. i'm not picking on her. i don't think this ever should be done by anyone. we don't see male pacers running alongside deena kastor or paula radcliffe or cathrine ndereba. yes, those athletes may have rabbits in their races, but those are other females who benefit any of the women who choose to take advantage of the rabbit's pace. this is different. paula radcliffe doesn't have her significant other enter the race and run alongside her the whole way. that's the issue here.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Nick

Jul 30, 08 10:34

Post #137 of 173 (1867 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [fred_h] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

[I may be in the vast minority, but I believe no one should wear headphones while running under any circumstances, whether it is racing or training.]
x2

Fred.

X3

and the asking of not playing music was not respected by at least one female athlete (I don't know if it's Belinda but I gonna ask Laurianne Levasseur as she came to me, after the race, completely surprised to cross another girl heraing loud music.) She likes it also and perform better by hearing music and so found it unfair as she thought or tought to have read it was, like everywhere else, forbidden for all the competitors.

To race QCR and not being able to ear the crowd : how is it possible ? ;-) It's like eating a beautiful meal with two fingers closing the nose.

Felix, first of all, what a wonderfull job you do with all your team !!!! 2nd, I'm very happy to see all what you need to clear the race (accurate distance and no doping / no drafting = that's a real hope and wonderfull news for all that love sport).
I trust U if you say that Belinda did not draft but I completely agree with Slowman : to be at less than 3 seconds from your husband during 80% fo the race will always disturb some purists thinking that Ironman triathlon is an individual race. You said that you quit following her to go to place 7-8 and came back next to her so you might me the one I talked about. But I confirm all what I eye-saw and made me sad. Nothing more, nothing less, just sad and disappointed.

As a conclusion, QCR is a wonderfull race organized by wonderfull people working, IMHO, on the right direction.

Slowman

Jul 30, 08 10:48

Post #138 of 173 (1852 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [STJay] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"Show me where she was popped for outside interference at Roth."

she wasn't. maybe roth doesn't think this is outside interference. i think it is. maybe i've got a blind spot. i think it's both unfair and illegal for one woman to have an entourage on the bike when another woman does not. maybe i'm wrong, maybe it's not illegal, but i still think it's unfair.

i've been to roth, i've had an SO in that race in the women's pro field, and i can tell you from firsthand experience that having someone not get called, and not get penalized, is no guarantee that rule breaking did not happen. i'm not saying that belinda drafted, or that anyone else drafted. i'm just saying that a non-call in that race doesn't impress me. and i've had race directors tell me all the steps they're taking to stop drafting, and i've seen the blatant drafting anyway. so that doesn't impress me. now, i think felix takes drafting a lot more seriously than detlef kuhnel did when he was that race's director. but i wasn't there, so i can assume the race was clean, i can hope it was clean, but i have no idea.

all that said, i think the chip mats tell a pretty compelling story. not just the chip mats of this race, but of a lot of races. we, as a sport, need to decide whether having your SO ride in your proximity for most or all of the ride is okay, or whether it's not. if everybody else decides it's okay, i'm happy to go along with the sport's decision.

"If she was being shadowed by Justin all day as the splits seem to allude to, I'm sure either or both would have been given at least a warning, or a penalty, by a stringent race officiating crew."

are you sure about that? i think it's quite possible to ride legally as regards the draft zone, but to still run afoul of outside interference. if the draft marshals weren't calling outside interference to those who're legally entered in the race, then no penalty would be called. and, again, if we all decide as a sport that it's not outside interference, i've got no beef with that. is that what you're advocating we do? would you think it's outside interference if you got out of the water, found donna, and rode the whole ride with her? if not, then you and i have a friendly disagreement. if you would think this it outside interference, then you haven't made your point to me in a compelling way. i don't think there's consensus on what outside interference is when it comes to this iteration of it, and i can very easily understand why it would not be called in roth.

"But the simple fact is, she is being hung by a collection of splits, which conclude nothing."

well, we did have this precise exchange after roth last year, belinda and i. at some point the collection of splits becomes so sizable a collection that the collection becomes a pattern. you want people to apologize to her. people really did give her the benefit of the doubt last year. but, we see the same thing happening this year. at what point is the onus no longer on me to apologize to her? at what point does the ball shift to her court? after how many races?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

celticfan

Jul 30, 08 10:54

Post #139 of 173 (1832 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [STJay] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

the forum has rules.

The Forum only has ONE rule: Dan's rule. And you better get with the program if you want to keep your job.

Slowman

Jul 30, 08 11:24

Post #140 of 173 (1799 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [celticfan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"The Forum only has ONE rule: Dan's rule. And you better get with the program if you want to keep your job."

nobody ever has to worry about expressing an opinion, whether they're part of the slowtwitch editorial family or not. what would bother me is if jay did not feel he could express his opinion. i think you'll find that herbert and jordan occasionally disagree with me. that's why i like them on the staff. and that's why the new guy (who you don't know about yet) is also on our staff, because they're thinkers, they're smart, and it would not be in my best interest to muzzle them.

about the rule of "trial by internet." belinda has chosen to speak to this issue here in this forum, and that's her right and that's fine. i think it's quite clear that she and justin ride the bike ride in close proximity, and this is not the first race in which this has happened. in fact, this discussion stretches back to last year. i did not accuse belinda of drafting, and it's because i have no evidence of that, and because i have no good reason to believe that happened. but, i note a body of evidence that indicates she rides in close proximity to her husband. i think it's silly to deny that. if i was her, i might seek a letter from the DTU, and/or from WTC, saying that they consider this activity absolutely legal. then she should plant it right here on this forum, and tell me where i can stick my opinion.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

crmartin9

Jul 30, 08 11:49

Post #141 of 173 (1761 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

This might be semantics, but I have an issue with calling pacing by a fellow competitor in the race "outside assistance." "Outside" to me means that the assistance is coming from someone outside the race, i.e. a non-competitor. If the pacer is a registered participant, it is not "outside" assistance, irregardless if the pacing is premediated and/or the pacer is a friend or family member of the pacee.

The analogy I make is getting nutritional aid from outside people. If I were to station my wife to hand me a water bottle outside of a designated aid station and she was not an official race volunteer, that's definitely outside assistance. But when Luc Van Lierde hands Peter Reid one of his water bottles during their IM Hawaii duel in '99 after Peter Reid dropped his water bottle when they biked through an aid station, I don't consider that outside assistance.

Maybe I'm comparing apples and oranges since I think everyone would agree Van Lierde's gesture was great sponsorship while pacing could be argued to be morally objectionable by some. But I think both situations are analagous in that there is no current rule that forbids any assistance by a fellow competitor in the race (outside of drafting, blocking, and other position penalties). If you want to forbid the practice of pacing, I think a new rule needs to be written to address it and you can not forbid it using the current rules on the books.

Chris

DavidP

Jul 30, 08 11:53

Post #142 of 173 (1751 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Nick] [In reply to]	Can't Post

[I may be in the vast minority, but I believe no one should wear headphones while running under any circumstances]
x2 X3

X4
Even though i train with a mp3 player, I don't think that mp3 players are the best way to show some respect to spectators that came to celebrate participants and the race. That said i am one of those (sorry) who like Chrissie Wellington* even better for not giving a monkey about beating the record at Frankfurt, obviously preferring to share her joy to be there with the spectators.

* she came second overall at Alpes D'Huez today
______________

Fromage :D

Slowman

Jul 30, 08 12:06

Post #143 of 173 (1734 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [crmartin9] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"I have an issue with calling pacing by a fellow competitor in the race "outside assistance." "Outside" to me means that the assistance is coming from someone outside the race, i.e. a non-competitor."

and i respect your view, and i think your view may come to represent the consensus and official view. i doubt it, but i acknowledge the point and also that your view is intellectually honest.

me, i do think it's outside assistance. but i do think it's ambiguous and that there is a need for clarification. i think that whenever anyone abandons or subordinates his own race ambition in order to further another registered athlete's race ambition, that's outside assistance. of course it's going to be a judgment call. nevertheless, i think it's a judgment that needs to be made by officials. i think it's the sort of call you only make after a warning, i think everybody needs to get one "false start" before he's pulled from the field. but, after having been granted that warning, penalties need to be given.

but, you may be right and i may end up on the wrong side of this. but here's the acid test that i think ought to be applied to this, at least from an ethical perspective. when accused of this sort of outside assistance that i'm talking about, why don't athletes just own up to it? why don't they say, "hey, sure, we're doing it, but it's perfectly legal. if others don't like it, they ought to get their own pacer/companion/chaperone."? i don't see that argument employed. instead, i've consistently seen athletes (not just belinda) deny that it's going on.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

crmartin9

Jul 30, 08 12:36

Post #144 of 173 (1698 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

How about we compromise and agree that the pacing is a grey area in the rules that needs to be clarified by people well above my pay grade?

I agree with your observation that it is peculiar than no one fesses up to pacing. In the hypothetical instance that Belinda and Justin were using each other to pace (I am using the word "hypothetical" here because I personally am giving them the benefit of the doubt) and they admit to it, I would be among the first in line to defend their right to do so. Triathlon stopped being a truly individual sport the day race waves ballooned past 300-400 people of comparable ability, as it is statistically unlikely that you won't find someone of comparable ability to bike at the same pace with. What defines a race for me is the ability to key off of fellow competitors to push yourself to achieve your goals. If you want to get back to triathlon's roots of measuring a true individual effort, we need to move to time trial starts or much smaller races.

I will take my argument one step further and state that if Belinda did benefit from the presence of a pacer, I also believe that the benefit trickled down to her competitors. By putting herself off of the front on a world-record pace, she put herself in the position of being a rabbit for her competitors to try to keep pace with her and ultimately hunt her down on the run. If Yvonne believed that she was an equal to Belinda on the bike as her associate states in his earlier post, then it must have benefited Yvonne to some extent to have the confidence to have the mindset to say to herself that "hey, I should be up there with Belinda on the bike, I need to pick it up." Belinda may not have broken the world record at Roth, but I honestly don't believe the world record would have been broken without the presence of Belinda in the race to go off of the front and push the other girls to their limits.

Chris

Slowman

Jul 30, 08 12:44

Post #145 of 173 (1686 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [crmartin9] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"How about we compromise and agree that the pacing is a grey area in the rules that needs to be clarified by people well above my pay grade?"

i did just get off the phone with one of the two who i'd consider at the top of the heap in the area of enforcement worldwide, and he told me it's not ambiguous at all, that the rule does not discriminate between those entered in the race and those who are not. he and i happen to have the same view. but i'd agree with you that we need some firming up of this rule and its enforcement, and the behavior expected of the athletes.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

crmartin9

Jul 30, 08 12:59

Post #146 of 173 (1669 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

This is exactly why this forum and folks who are willing to take the initiative like yourself are so useful - I now learned something new for today. Thanks for getting a ruling from the top on the rule; hopefully, we can get the powers that be to take the steps necessary to clarify any possible misunderstandings and educate competitors and officials on the official interpretation of the rule.

Chris

cramer

Jul 30, 08 14:14

Post #147 of 173 (1620 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [crmartin9] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

The analogy I make is getting nutritional aid from outside people. If I were to station my wife to hand me a water bottle outside of a designated aid station and she was not an official race volunteer, that's definitely outside assistance. But when Luc Van Lierde hands Peter Reid one of his water bottles during their IM Hawaii duel in '99 after Peter Reid dropped his water bottle when they biked through an aid station, I don't consider that outside assistance.

Let's take your analogy one step further: Say a pro triathlete enters an IM with his buddy, a former pro cyclist. They work up a plan wherein the buddy's job is to grab aid at the aid stations and shuttle it up to the pro so that he doesn't have to slow down. They're otherwise careful to avoid drafting and other rules violations. The buddy drops out on the run, his work completed.

Where would this fall in the spectrum of "outside assistance/interference," in your opinion?

cramer

crmartin9

Jul 30, 08 14:45

Post #148 of 173 (1594 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [cramer] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Very good hypothetical question. As long as the pro triathlete's domestique has met all of the qualifications to be entered in the race (meaning that typically, he or she must also have a valid pro triathlete license since almost all IM's have separate pro wave starts now), the way that I previously interpreted the rules I would have answered that by my literal interpretation of the term "outside assistance", this would not be illegal. Morally objectionable and against the spirit of competition, yes, but illegal, no. Dan has since gotten clarification on the rule and educated me that officials have already interpreted the rules such that this is indeed illegal and that my prior interpretation is wrong.

Now in this case, your analogy is a bit more of an egregous situation than what many are accusing the Grangers of. In your scenario, only the pro triathlete with the domestique benefits. As I stated in a prior post, Belinda's ride (whether or not it was achieved with or without pacing) still benefitted the whole field to some extent and raised the bar for Yvonne and others to better the world record. Belinda did not arrive at T-2 having expended less energy or started the run better hydrated than her competitors.

Chris

(edited to tried to clean up my grammar)

(This post was edited by crmartin9 on Jul 30, 08 14:47)

Kensho

Jul 30, 08 14:46

Post #149 of 173 (1592 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

As someone who has taken an officiating course, I understand pacing as an unfair advantage that deserves a penalty.

Funny, I called a couple guys out on ST a while back for drafting during the Oliver 1/2 Iron.

Then one of them, in his defense, actually ADMITS to pacing: "there is nothing wrong with pacing off of another rider"
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rch_string=;#1834264
And then I get lambasted by the "Peaceful Tribe" for calling out a cheater.

Planning to pace is cheating.. period.

However, sitting legally in at draft legal distance, while extremely distasteful, is not technically cheating. It's a fact of crowded course and tight fields.

I defend Belinda as I do not believe there is any intent to pace.

Slowman

Jul 30, 08 15:03

Post #150 of 173 (1573 views)

Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [tuneoutthenoise] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"I defend Belinda as I do not believe there is any intent to pace."

this particular person to whom i spoke recounted to me several of the people whom he's had to admonish the night before the race, lest that athlete get penalized or DQd. this has been an issue in women's triathlon as long as there has been women's triathlon. i can recount examples that go back 20 years, and i can give you chapter and verse of some of the more notable offenders during that time.

i am assuming that belinda is honorable, races draft-free, and has no intent to break the rules. at the same time, there have been a variety of things done in years past that speak to the value of having a "domestique" at your beck and call, including repeated, tho certainly legal or at least quasi-legal, slingshotting back and forth to take advantage of the legal draft; having the SO swap in the instance of a flat, with the SO changing the tire; and then there's just the 112-mile coaching session.

i have no idea whether belinda engaged, or intended to engage, in any of that, and without any evidence i'm going to say that she did not engage in any of that. however, there is one way to just put all this to rest. an ironman is 140 miles long. there is plenty of road out there. were justin simply to be 50 meters away from his wife, in front or behind, during the ride, there is no issue. there's 100 meters out there that constitutes a place he ought not to be. all the rest of the course is fair game. isn't the course big enough for that? we talked about this last year, and now are again talking about it this year. will we talk about it next year, or again later this year?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

(This post was edited by Slowman on Jul 30, 08 15:28)

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