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Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses?
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Slowman
Jul 18, 08 9:20
Post #76 of 173 (1993 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [tobias]
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"
you raised suspicions about Erika Csomors swim in Roth and compared her swim time to that of Leanda Cave in another race. I explained that Leanda Cave also was in Roth and swam a similar time."
i'm sure in your own athletic experience, you've performed well below your athletic potential, for any number of reasons. it seems to me leanda cave may also have those moments. but, have you ever performed way above your athletic potential? that's pretty hard to do. maybe csomor is just a better swimmer now. i'll be an eager spectator of her new prowess. as you may know, i'm a big fan of those who spend the time in the water and take the effort to better their swim times.
again, in roth, i can imagine the swim times being accurate for the most part. on the fast side of accurate, no doubt, but within the boundaries of believability. likewise the bike and run course. so, what explains the women going so fast in roth? maybe we have several women who've just had their coming out parties at this race. if so, that's great. we need more top-level stars.
at the same time, you'll note that last year we had a thread about this very same topic at roth: the women's bike ride. belinda granger came on the forum and posted, and i gave her the benefit of the doubt, as did many others. but i also urged her last year to cling to her husband off the race course, but to s
tay the hell away from him on the race course.
otherwise, the suspicions and accusations will continue. for the record, the rule here is not simply drafting, but "outside interference." justin granger is not in her race. simply based on the splits in this year's race, it does not seem that she heeded my advice. it does not seem that the race direction cares about this, or it wouldn't keep happening.
as for the other gals who rode 4:50 or faster, i don't know about their races. i would like to hear from those who were there. i just think that if somebody's going to set a world best, the conditions ought to support that world best.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
diamonddickie
Jul 18, 08 9:24
Post #77 of 173 (1991 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [diamonddickie]
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P.S. I thought the swim was about right distance wise but had some trouble sighting the canal coming in and wondered around a bit. The canal definitley felt fast but not massivley so. My run was also better than expected but put that down to the flat course, slow bike in the rain, cool temp's and good support. Sorry no Garmin data but motionbased shows a couple of rides with less than 112 miles.
If it was indeed short I'd rather not know about it!
Jorgan
Jul 18, 08 9:48
Post #78 of 173 (1979 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman]
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Sloman, you've made not acknowledging anything valid in this discussion your 'stock-in-trade', again the reverse psychology doesn't hold water.
Quote:
when i look at the swim times, a few performances stand out as not very believable. but, in general they look pretty good. i can imagine this being a legit course. on the fast side of legit, no doubt, but within the margin.
Okay, so what is your point then, if it isn't questionning the accuracy of courses? We can all see what you're inferring, yet you seem to think you can keep dodging that bullet with 'unfounded claim' written on it.
Call me nationalistic or anything else you wish, it doesn't detract from the fact that you are, to all intents & purposes, questionning either the course or the athletes. Which is it to be then???? Please put us out of our misery.
My beef clearly isn't nationalism, I'm not German, and it's not personal........ it's the just unsubstantiated insinuations that are being made.
Edit
- I've just read your last post, and understand a little more of what you're getting at, but like I said, your initial posts didn't come across like that i.e. they seemed pretty accusational.
I will let you continue with your battlefield 'exit strategy' ;-)
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hazelman
Jul 18, 08 9:55
Post #79 of 173 (1977 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman]
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"
it seems that most agree that the swim times of everyone involved does not have the swim course look short."
when i look at the swim times, a few performances stand out as not very believable. but, in general they look pretty good. i can imagine this being a legit course. on the fast side of legit, no doubt, but within the margin.
furthermore, on the bike and the run i have no real problem. those are certainly more believable bike times than were the case in years past, on the 3-loop course.
if i have a concern it is in the women's bike times, where the difference between the men and the women seem not as large as we would expect would be the case. this leads me to wonder less about the distance of the race, but more about the conditions the race was run. what i'd like to hear from torbjorn, and thomas, is, was the course a "good kona day." or was the course 5min faster than a good kona day? if it was equal to a good kona day, then the women's rides were awfully, awfully fast. 5 minutes faster than a good kona day, the women's rides were still fast.
again, i hearken back to my own experience there, during the 3-lap days when, after every lap, here comes paula's "pack," here comes fernanda's "pack," and it was not the fault of these women, but the fact that the men's AG fields sucked them up into huge packs of 50 and 60 riders each, and the race organization didn't seem to me to feel compelled to do anything about it.
but, this year, i don't think it's necessarily the case that the RD is letting things get out of hand. i'm looking at justin granger's splits and it seems to me like he was keeping very close tabs on his wife, who rode a very sprightly 4:50. i believe we've seen this remarkable parody of swimming/cycling talent across this family unit before, have we not? ;-) i'm not suggesting anything, maybe they went off in different waves, and are just remarkably similar in their abilities, getting off the bike at almost exactly the same time. who knows?
when you have a world class men's field, and the women are 36 and 38 minutes away from the men, that's the sort of thing you don't typically see. i think canada in '89 or '90, when erin ran a 2:47, that was the last race i saw where you have just over a half-hour difference in a race where the men's and women's field seems to be of equal talent.
i would love to see some spectators warrant that the rides were clean, in which case let's give these athletes their due. i hope this was a breakthrough race for the top several women.
Let me comment bit by bit:
1. Pro Men times compared to Pro Womens times too close
You state: "when you have a world class men's field, and the women are 36 and 38 minutes away from the men, that's the sort of thing you don't typically see."
SORRY, took your post to be limited to bike Times!
2. Women in packs of males
The female pros that I caught in Roth (I was in a relay) were on their second round and all rode legally. I worked my way up to Ferguson & Keat and they were riding legally for as long as I could see, which was at least 1k that it took me to catch them. Yvonne and Erica I did not see, though.
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tobias
Jul 18, 08 9:55
Post #80 of 173 (1977 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman]
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Quote:
as for the other gals who rode 4:50 or faster, i don't know about their races. i would like to hear from those who were there. i just think that if somebody's going to set a world best, the conditions ought to support that world best.
I actually can't tell about Belinda Granger (and I didn't talk about her in my previous posts), because I rode to her group just before T2. She was the only one in Roth who rode 4:50, Csomor and van Vlerken rode 4:54. I already wrote what I saw. The next fastest on the bike were Gina Ferguson, 5:01 and Rebekah Keat, 5:06. If I remember correctly, those two were actually each alone when I passed them.
So I was there and I told you what I saw - but I cannot give an account of the whole race since I saw them only for a short time. The conditions on the bike were far from perfect, it was raining the whole time. Still, the bike course is very fast because of the smooth asphalt, the spectators, and the hills that actually make you faster than if it were flat if the wind is right. But the conditions on the run were absolutely perfect, the rain had stopped and it was about 18°C. The run course is also very fast, there are very few turns.
Jorgan
Jul 18, 08 10:00
Post #81 of 173 (1969 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [tobias]
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Tobias
, as a non-German (living in Germany) I'd like to compliment you on the excellent standard of your English and the great performance you did on Sunday.
Will you be my bike coach?!
Schoenes Wochenende ;-)
Slowman
Jul 18, 08 10:09
Post #82 of 173 (1962 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Jorgan]
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"
Which is it to be then???? Please put us out of our misery."
i don't think i can offer anything that would put you out of your misery. i fear you're destined to be miserable, but i hope i'm wrong.
in any other sport, when a world best or world record is set, those world bests must be ratified. nobody goes around ratifying every performance. but when records are set, sports governance officials, and the adherents and fans of that sport, want that record to be gone over with a fine-tooth comb, because records are important.
we don't have that in triathlon. you write about my "stock in trade." if you really go back and reflect on what i've written in the past on this subject, my stock-in-trade is for our sport to hoist itself up and become as professional as other sports, where we seriously consider these things. i
wrote
about this in 2003, when benny vansteelant won the world du champs on a course where he ran 29+ for his 10k.
back then i made what you would call "thinly veiled accusations" because running 29:** at the end of a du doesn't pass the test of reasonableness. when women race very close in time to the men during a world best performance, i think it's fair to look under the hood of that race. we don't have a governing body who'll do this for us, so we must muddle through on our own.
i'm sorry you're so upset. i don't know why you're so upset. but that's really not my problem. i've been very specific in not accusing these women of cheating, and i have specifically not accused the RD of putting a race on a short course. but i'm putting forward some things to consider before we all raise our hands in salute to the new world record holder. it's my own attempt at world record "ratification" since no other group tasked with governance will stand up and do it for us.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Jorgan
Jul 18, 08 10:21
Post #83 of 173 (1940 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman]
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Why would taking exception to some of your comments make me miserable, what would you know about me? If you want to make personal observations about me because I've challenged you, then that's a shame.
(This post was
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Slowman
Jul 18, 08 10:34
Post #84 of 173 (1927 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Jorgan]
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"
Why would taking exception to some of your comments make me miserable?"
you asked me to put you out of your misery. if you're in misery, you're miserable... according to one definition of miserable. my comment was a double-entendre.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Jorgan
Jul 18, 08 10:44
Post #85 of 173 (1917 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman]
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D'you know, that made me smile!
Slowman
Jul 18, 08 10:58
Post #86 of 173 (1906 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Jorgan]
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D'you know, that made me smile!"
i'm glad about that. and i hope at some point our ideas about this can converge. i'm really not trying to denigrate a race director. and i'm not trying to denigrate any athlete. what i'd like to do is exactly the opposite: get out of the way any questions in my own mind that might stand in the way of my applauding some wonderful efforts. because i have these questions, i can only assume others have these questions. if a pair of women run 1:03 and and 1:04 in half-marathon, my first response is: that's fast. my second response is: is that too fast? if i can satisfy my questions, then i'm happy to applaud the new world record holder.
because roth has had a history, in the past, of short courses, and of women riding inside of huge packs of AG men, i have these questions. had roth not had that history, i would have fewer questions. the more i have this discussion, the more convinced i am that the roth course today is accurate. this then leads me to the second question i have, which is, did the women ride clean? when i see people post who said, "when i saw them they were clean," this gives me evidence that, yes, the ride was clean.
i can only speak for myself. i can either suspect that races by wallenhorst, csomor, van vlerken, are not true, clean, honest times; or i can do what i can to get rid of that doubt, and therefore know that these 8:45, 8:47 and 8:47 times are in fact righteous and worthy of records. i'd rather ruffle some feathers and ask some questions, so that i can remove that doubt.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
hazelman
Jul 18, 08 11:12
Post #87 of 173 (1899 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman]
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my second response is: is that too fast? if i can satisfy my questions, then i'm happy to applaud the new world record holder.
Well, seems noone can satisfy your questions. not even the rd who states that the cours is measured by an insurance that would have to pay 100k in case the record falls.
So what are we going to do?
Bast way for you to see would be tome over ans race as a pro woman.
As this is not likely to happen for some obvious reasons (neither are you a woman nor are you young anough), you'll have to live with what you get!
Cheers!
tim
Slowman
Jul 18, 08 11:17
Post #88 of 173 (1895 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [hazelman]
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"
Well, seems noone can satisfy your questions. not even the rd who states that the cours is measured by an insurance that would have to pay 100k in case the record falls."
perhaps you didn't read the actual post to which you refer... the part where i said, "
the more i have this discussion, the more convinced i am that the roth course today is accurate."
is it that you only read the first paragraph of my posts? or do you only read the first paragraph of everyone's post?
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
dtreeps
Jul 18, 08 11:33
Post #89 of 173 (1879 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman]
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I swam two minutes slower than I swam the 3.8 in a race sim two weeks before so I think it's close. Keep in mind its not in the Rothsee but in a canal now with glass like conditions.
The bike may be slightly short, I don't know. My 5:44 seemed on the money. There are some tough climbs but you really can pedal all the downhills for miles. I haven't downloaded my PT data yet but also I haven't set it properly to my wheel circumference. I will say that I saw a draft mashal at least every 10 minutes, probably more often. I saw no intentional drafting at my end of the race. There was some natural bunching on uphills, downhills, corners, but nothing intentional and you could tell people were trying to get out of the draft zone.
on the run. I can say that the conditions were ripe for running fast: 50 and rainy. What better could you ask for. 95 percent of the run is dead flat on hard packed crushed gravel and you never get away from fans. . That is something that can't be underestimated.
I can't comment specifically on the accuracy of the course but I can say that conditions including the spectators are prime for this to be a very fast race.
Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com
www.aiatriathlon.com
tobias
Jul 18, 08 14:25
Post #90 of 173 (1836 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Jorgan]
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Thanks ;). But I'm not into coaching.
Jorgan
Jul 18, 08 15:34
Post #91 of 173 (1816 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [tobias]
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Only joking, you're probably not my type anyway.....(another joke)
diamonddickie
Jul 18, 08 19:40
Post #92 of 173 (1807 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman]
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It doesn't answer the question of whether the Austria course is really shorter or faster than any others, but I thought it was interesting to plot of the results of the 2008 Austria and Coeur d'Alene races. This shows a very different profile for the course or participants with 11 hours being the mean for Austria and somewhere nearer 13 for the US race. Difficult to say why but food for thought.
Ultra-tri-guy
Jul 18, 08 23:27
Post #93 of 173 (1785 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [diamonddickie]
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I would imagine that the average time for every NAS race except the draft fest that is IMFL is slower than every other IM on the planet.The rest of the world leans a little more toward the "race" aspect of Ironman than the "participation" of NAS events.
uli
Jul 19, 08 3:48
Post #94 of 173 (1745 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Francois]
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I won't give out names but, one of my friends was racing, and saw some of the women riding directly in the wheel of someone for extended periods of time...names that have come out in the past already...
Fairly obvious who you are referring to. I spoke to another guy who had an off-day and was in that group. He witnessed the same FOR 100K.
__________________________________________
message from mzungo
Speedwork
Jul 25, 08 2:50
Post #95 of 173 (1651 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [dtreeps]
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on the run. I can say that the conditions were ripe for running fast: 50 and rainy.
Has anyone else noticed that the "perfect" race conditions for fast times in Roth, Austria and Switzerland i.e. relatively cool (18/20) and torrential rain/thunderstorms are the same "nightmare/epic" conditions that Lake Placid experienced resulting in much slower run times than expected?!
Disclaimer: I raced none of the above so have no idea what they were REALLY like, but there does seem to be a lack of consistency from those who sit at home in the US dismissing European races as "easy".
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Speedwork Design
Diabolo
Jul 25, 08 5:22
Post #96 of 173 (1628 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Espen Wagener]
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Yes, Brett Sutton is one hell of a swim coach (emphasis on hell) :-)
Latest example, Nicola Spirig is now front pack material in her last world cup before the Olympics, she is so strong on the bike that for a change she doesn't need to do shit on the bike (no big effort to bridge the gap from second to first pack, certainly less effort exerted than most her competitors) and she wins the whole race kinda easily on the run (so to speak).
xtremrun
Jul 25, 08 6:03
Post #97 of 173 (1616 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Freespeed]
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I did IM Austria and I thought the conditions were great. My Bike computer read 112.37 after the race so I think the bike was pretty close to being dead on. The bike course is also very fast, the climbs are not bad and the down hills seem to go on forever. I also have swam 1:06 at Canada, 1:10 at Germany without a wetsuit. I swam 1:04 on the double loop course at Austria in 2002. I swam 103 something on the one loop course the year. The conditions were awesome. So I think the swim course was pretty close also. The conditions for the run were great also. The rain lastest about an hour it seemed for me but the temps stayed down for the entire run and there is alot of shade on the course. I think the conditions were alot different than Lake Placid so I don't really think you can compare the two races.
belinda granger
Jul 25, 08 7:26
Post #98 of 173 (1598 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman]
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Hi everyone
Just read through this rather long topic and I suppose I just want to clear up a few of the issues raised- especially for you Dan.
As you are all aware I train with Team TBB and Brett is our coach. Erika joined our team earlier in the year and has been doing some amazing work in the pool. She has never really done proper swim training (well not as far as our coach is concerned). Her swim fitness is greatly improved. The reason she swam such a fast time in Roth is because the pro men, pro women, sub 9 hour boys and all other women go off in the first wave. It is a really good sized pack- not too big or crazy, but enough feet to swim on. Now that she is a faster and fitter swimmer she was able to take advantage of this. The reason Yvonne and Erika swam alomst the same time as Leanda is because Leanda actually raced with a broken rib. Under normal conditions, Leanda would have smashed us all out of the water. Unfortunately she had a bike crash and sustained a broken rib. Just shows how tough she really is as she did not complain or even tell the rest of us that she was suffering from this.
If you look at the top men's swim times- they are normal. Pete and Keiren and Macca can swim the times they swam. I swam faster than I have ever swum but I was tucked into a huge pack and found the swim almost effortless- you basically get sucked along. But I have also been swimming 7 days a week with some huge sessions and have really found my swimming has improved- I went into Roth expecting to swim well.
As for my bike time- this is what I expected to ride- I rode the same time last year. I have been based in the mountains of Switzerland since May and I knew I was riding well. I also realise how it looks when you see that I rode basically the same time as Justin. You know at the end of the day I don't care about the men who are around me- whether it is my husband, a friend, a team mate or somebody I have never seen before- they are all just competitors to me when I am racing. The boys really struggled this year because of the cold conditions on the bike- it was wet and only 11 degrees. Physiologically the girls cope with these conditions so much better- a combination of higher body fat percentages and I truely believe our pain threshold is also higher (just my opinion). I was riding past males that I normally wouldn't even see in a race and they were struggling. For example- I exited the water with Stephan Vuckovic and I actually ended up catchimg him on the bike- simply because his body shut down on him as a result of the cold conditions. My husband flew past me on the bike as I had beaten him out of the water. I didn't see him for miles but then caught him- he looked terrible and I really thought he was not going to make it through the ride- this happened all day on the bike- pro men would ride past looking fine and then 20kms later I would go past them and they were practically blue. I do not think you realise how foul the conditions were on the bike. Many of the pro men rode like this for 180kms- up and down like a yo-yo- it was crazy.
I think because I had done so many rides in the mountains in preparation for this race I was able to cope with it. It was the same for Erika and Yvonne- these two girls thrive in these conditions.
As for the bike and run courses being short- I don't know exactly the distance of the bike but I usually come in with 178kms on my powertap. This year, as a result of all the water, it dropped out on me for the last 10km or so. The run- jesus with my run time compared to the other girl's- I hope it is correct!!! I do know the race director has had it measured many times because of the constant talk. There was no money paid out for the World Record this year as that money went to the 62 compulsory pre-race blood tests done on the thursday morning for all pro athletes.
I do know that Yvonne and Erika are the real deal. You will be seeing them both this year in Hawaii. But whether you will see these performances repeated is yet to be seen. Kona is a completely different kettle of fish- the heat kills some people and the added competition cracks even the best of them.
The run times of Yvonne and Erika are correct for them. I have been watching Erika run some unbelievable track sessions with the boys in my squad- she is an amazing runner. Again I don't think any of the boys ran the times they were capable of- simply because the cold conditions killed their legs on the bike and they never really got them back. I spoke to both Pete and Patrick after the race and they both told me that they went through so many ups and downs on the run. Yvonne and Erika again thrived in the cooler running conditions.
The girls are getting better- they are raising the bar- I think thanks to Chrissie coming out last year and giving it to all of us in Kona and then racing the way she did in Frankfurt was a real wake-up call for all of us- it was either lift our game or prepare to be crushed. I think the old measure of 1hr behind the male winner is gone for good.
Thanks for reading
Belinda x
Slowman
Jul 25, 08 7:44
Post #99 of 173 (1580 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [belinda granger]
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"
My husband flew past me on the bike as I had beaten him out of the water. I didn't see him for miles but then caught him- he looked terrible and I really thought he was not going to make it through the ride"
fine. i'll take you at your word that it's just a coincidence that you two came off the bike... again... essentially together. what i have not heard is you, or natascha, or any of the top gals who seem to have male chaperones during the bike ride, denounce the practice as outside interference. maybe you believe, as does my next door neighbor monty, that it's completely legal and ethical. if so, that's fine, i disagree, but i'd like to know if that's your posture.
if you agree with me, that it's unfair to the other women in the field to have a man in the race whose sole or partial purpose is to perform the bike ride in your presence, then i think it would be good for you to state that this is the case, and i would expect that these coincidences in times will diminish in the future.
i think this was your PR, is it not? bravo.
congratulations on a fine performance. it's nice to see you gradually improve your overall performances year after year.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
crmartin9
Jul 25, 08 12:08
Post #100 of 173 (1533 views)
Re: Roth? Klagenfurt? World Record courses? [Slowman]
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Just to be devil's advocate, has anyone considered the fact that perhaps the woman's WR of 8:45, 8:47, or 8:50 (take your pick) is still relatively slow compared to the men's WR? In sports such as swimming and running, 10% seems to be consistently the spread between the top men's and women's times. If the men's WR is 7:50, by my math, the woman's WR should be around 8:37. I, for one, am not surprised that we are finally seeming a consistent stream of women cracking 9 hours; I think we're finally seeming some more depth of quality to the women's fields lining up at iron-distance races and we're finally seeing some world class performances on a regular and consistent basis.
To answer the original question: I had 111.xx miles on my bike computer after doing Roth this year (forgot the fraction before I accidentally reset the computer). I had calibrated my computer with a roll-out test with my race wheels shortly before the race. No idea on the run distance - I'd like to think the overall distance was accurate since the course has two out and back turnarounds, so there's no excuse for not getting it right. I can tell you the spacing between actual km markers was not consistent as they started to get a little shorter in between in the final 10k (my split for km 41 was ~3:15!), so that does make me wonder a little bit.
Chris
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