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PowerTap Question

 

   


Mendeldave

Jul 28, 09 7:03

Post #1 of 23 (6236 views)
PowerTap Question Quote | Reply

So I'm going to buy a powertap.

I'm thinking the Pro+ laced into a 32 hole Mavic open pro wheel ---as far as I can tell, the only real difference between that model and the two above it is weight and the very top level one has that Ant+Sport thing, which I don't know much about but seems to be a digital wireless com thing.

So, any thoughts? Is the Pro+ "good enough?" Is it just basically a tad heavier than the other two more expensive models?

Thanks!


mcdoublee

Jul 28, 09 7:15

Post #2 of 23 (6216 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [kosherdave] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The pro+ is also using ANT+ transmission.

Other than weight, the pro+ uses a 12mm alloy (aluminum ?) axle. I've read reports of people finding this insufficiently stiff and/or durable, though I'm skeptical.


Rappstar

Jul 28, 09 7:20

Post #3 of 23 (6210 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [kosherdave] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ALL PowerTap models from Elite+ to SLC+ are ANT+ wirless.

The differences between models:
SLC+ over SL+: ceramic bearings (plus improvements of SL+ over Pro+)
SL+ over Pro+: 15mm axle & carbon/alloy hub shell (vs. 12mm alloy axle and alloy hub shell)
Pro+ over Elite+: 12mm alloy axle (vs. 12mm steel axle)

What you really are paying for - and what you really do want - in the SL+ over the Pro+ is the 15mm axle. It's not just a different axle diameter, it's a entirely different mechanical hub. I've ridden both, and I think the SL+ mechanicals are MUCH better than the old mechanicals (which is what you have in the Pro+ and Elite+). Hope that helps.


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Mendeldave

Jul 28, 09 7:28

Post #4 of 23 (6189 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks, that's starting to help, but HOW is it better? (I think the SL+ mechanicals are MUCH better than the old mechanicals) --can you elaborate?

Thanks!!


Rappstar

Jul 28, 09 7:41

Post #5 of 23 (6181 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [kosherdave] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I found the preload on the 12mm axle to be more finicky. I.e., sometimes the hub would feel like it was dragging a bit and other times it would feel like it a bit sloppy. I think the smaller diameter was a part of this - overall the hub felt less stiff, mostly in the sense of just what I'd put under the overarching term "smoothness" and the bearings spin at 25% more, which means a shorter lifespan. Now, my experience with the hub may have been magnified being built into a Zipp 404, which is a stiffer hoop laterally and a more compliant hoop vertically, than a Mavic Open Pro 32.

Basically, when you look at the set-up of the 15mm axle hubs, there were a number of changes made to the preload, axle, and everything else. It's about as significant an overhaul as you could do. I believe the pawl engagement system is the same and the hub shells are the same size, but that's it. When I made the switch, it was very noticeable. The preload is much less finicky, the hub is smoother from a riding perspective (likely due to it being much stiffer and by having less troublesome preload). It just rides better.

There is a cyclingnews article on the new hubs (from last year, before the TdF) that's give all of the metrics. If you really care about me telling you it's exactly 12% stiffer, for example, I'll go and dig up the actual data.

The 15mm axle hub is a good hub. The 12mm axle hub was adequate. I still think the hub could be further improved, but the core electronics are still very expensive, and IMO, people don't appreciate the difference hub quality makes enough. I.e., I don't know that people really want to pay more for a better hub, since it's not something you can see/touch/etc. But it's quite important.


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jpb0009

Jul 28, 09 8:03

Post #6 of 23 (6143 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm looking into a powertap as well so thank you for the post and response. Now I just need to decide on rim choice.


merlin2375

Aug 6, 09 8:26

Post #7 of 23 (5973 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [jpb0009] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Just another thanks for the comments.

Can anyone explain what "onboard analysis" means as far as the powertaps go?
----
You're only as good as your next race


JimMoss

Aug 6, 09 9:14

Post #8 of 23 (5921 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [mcdoublee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I've read reports of people finding this insufficiently stiff and/or durable, though I'm skeptical.

I'm not skeptical. I'm 6 feet tall and 160 lbs soaking wet and that POS alloy axle they use standard in the PT hubs is not stiff enough for me to keep from having the wheel rub my brakes while climbing. I'm also not alone...Rich Sawaris from Wheelbuilder told me at the TOC two years ago Rich and his crew had to swap out the alloy axles for steel ones (much stiffer) for most of the Garmin team. Their riders were complaining about the flex of the PT hubs as well.

I think a lot of it has to do with the weight distribution and the way I ride my P2C. Because if I put the wheel with the alloy axle on my road bike and go climb some canyons I don't get "the rub".

Steel axle weighs more but so what, it works and doesn't have that flex that the alloy does.


Mendeldave

Aug 6, 09 9:14

Post #9 of 23 (5920 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [merlin2375] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Update: I ended up ordering the SL+ over Pro+. Thanks for your advice! Can't wait for it to arrive!
~~~~~~~~~
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merlin2375

Aug 6, 09 9:21

Post #10 of 23 (5909 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [jackbauer] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I've read reports of people finding this insufficiently stiff and/or durable, though I'm skeptical.

I'm not skeptical. I'm 6 feet tall and 160 lbs soaking wet and that POS alloy axle they use standard in the PT hubs is not stiff enough for me to keep from having the wheel rub my brakes while climbing. I'm also not alone...Rich Sawaris from Wheelbuilder told me at the TOC two years ago Rich and his crew had to swap out the alloy axles for steel ones (much stiffer) for most of the Garmin team. Their riders were complaining about the flex of the PT hubs as well.

I think a lot of it has to do with the weight distribution and the way I ride my P2C. Because if I put the wheel with the alloy axle on my road bike and go climb some canyons I don't get "the rub".

Steel axle weighs more but so what, it works and doesn't have that flex that the alloy does.
Ack this makes me really wonder if a clyde should even consider anything less than 15mm hub.
----
You're only as good as your next race


mcycle

Aug 6, 09 9:29

Post #11 of 23 (5888 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [merlin2375] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It might mean that you can see a host of on the fly power metrics with the latest cpu firmware- like best avg power for :30 seconds, 1:00 minute, 5 minutes, 20 minutes. How much time spent in Zones 1, 2, and 3- based on a wattage that you put for lactic threshold. Zone 2 would be at threshold levels. http://www.saris.com/pdfManuals/361.pdf

As to people commenting about the benefits of the different axels- I have the 2.4 wireless hubs (which i believe is the old 12 mm axel diameter) and the new SL+ hubs (15 mm axel diameter). I can't really tell a difference. However- the way the hubs are put together are different. The old hub had a bolt- that you would need cone wrenches to adjust/tighten- even though it didn't really press on the bearings- and this nut came loose with too much regularity. I'm not sure if this design is part of the new Pro+ hub- but the new hubs have advantages in my mind (from a maintenance issue- not performance issue) compared to the SL 2.4 hubs.


(This post was edited by mlinenb on Aug 6, 09 9:30)


Zeriman

Aug 6, 09 19:03

Post #12 of 23 (5786 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [mlinenb] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Another difference with the new 15mm axle is that the free hub pops right off without any tools. And there are no bolts to remove and no spacers to relocate when switching between Shimano and Campy free hubs.

That means no more conversion cassettes for those with a Shimano triathlon bike and a Campy road bike.
-------------------------------------
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mcdoublee

Aug 14, 09 5:54

Post #13 of 23 (5655 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
What you really are paying for - and what you really do want - in the SL+ over the Pro+ is the 15mm axle. It's not just a different axle diameter, it's a entirely different mechanical hub. I've ridden both, and I think the SL+ mechanicals are MUCH better than the old mechanicals (which is what you have in the Pro+ and Elite+). Hope that helps.
Any idea what mechanicals are in the new/old wired version? (the Comp).


Rappstar

Aug 14, 09 8:40

Post #14 of 23 (5584 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [mcdoublee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm fairly certain it's the 12mm axle, probably steel. AFAIK, they all used to used the same 12mm axle/mechanicals, just with alloy vs. steel axles. There are some that are clearly different - like some of the REALLY old ones - but I have no idea what is/was in those.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

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jksu2000

Oct 14, 09 7:29

Post #15 of 23 (5348 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [goldenboy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

how do i get a steel axle? i have one of the older powertap sl and definitely get the brake rub... it's for training so i don't mind the added weight. call saris?

jksu


JimMoss

Oct 14, 09 8:18

Post #16 of 23 (5315 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [jksu2000] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Call Saris for a steel axle. If asked about the age of your PT be vague. If asked directly, tell them <1 year. I know, I know, dishonest, shady and all but those alloy axles suck and they know it. You shouldn't have to pay for it.


electusunus

Mar 31, 11 2:36

Post #17 of 23 (4445 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rapp,

Do you recall any info regarding the older SL (pre ant) wireless hubs. Did they use a 15mm axle or did they use a 12?
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mike@wahoo

Mar 31, 11 5:19

Post #18 of 23 (4378 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
ALL PowerTap models from Elite+ to SLC+ are ANT+ wirless.

The differences between models:
SLC+ over SL+: ceramic bearings (plus improvements of SL+ over Pro+)
SL+ over Pro+: 15mm axle & carbon/alloy hub shell (vs. 12mm alloy axle and alloy hub shell)
Pro+ over Elite+: 12mm alloy axle (vs. 12mm steel axle)

What you really are paying for - and what you really do want - in the SL+ over the Pro+ is the 15mm axle. It's not just a different axle diameter, it's a entirely different mechanical hub. I've ridden both, and I think the SL+ mechanicals are MUCH better than the old mechanicals (which is what you have in the Pro+ and Elite+). Hope that helps.

Rapp - you might be mistaken. They changed this for the 2010 models (or around then).

The new PT models all have the 15mm axle. All have the same mechanics inside. Here are the differences:
SLC+ over SL+: ceramic bearings (plus improvements of SL+ over Pro+)
SL+ over Pro+: 15mm alloy axle & carbon/alloy hub shell (vs. just alloy shell of Pro+) (plus improvements of PRO+ over Elite+) )
Pro+ over Elite+: 15mm alloy axle (vs. 15mm steel axle) and alloy freehub (vs. steel freehub)

The main difference is weight between the 4. From Elite to Pro you save 180grams due to alloy vs. steel in axle and freehub. From Pro to SL you save 60 grams due to carbon cutouts. From SL to SLC you save 17 grams due to ceramic bearings.

I am pretty sure all have the same mechanicals now.
___________


JollyRogers

Mar 31, 11 5:34

Post #19 of 23 (4363 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [electusunus] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Non-ANT+ were 12mm. If you sent the hub to Saris for overall and ANT+ upgrade, they converted to 15mm axle.


sentania

Mar 31, 11 6:28

Post #20 of 23 (4331 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [shackmantri] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You did notice the date/time of Rappstars post didn't you?



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"no matt...your FTP is never high enough, there is always room for improvement." - jonnyo


mike@wahoo

Mar 31, 11 6:30

Post #21 of 23 (4327 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [sentania] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

About 30 seconds ago! Hilarious. Sorry to all for being a dumbass.
___________


electusunus

Mar 31, 11 10:11

Post #22 of 23 (4273 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [shackmantri] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

regardless still good information for the community to know. I tried searching around in the internet archive but could drum up anything regarding axle size in prior models.
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Sub

May 13, 11 14:02

Post #23 of 23 (4014 views)
Re: PowerTap Question [JollyRogers] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Anyone have good feedback on how the steel hub stops the brake rub? Just trying to evaluate if it's worth it. Also, does anyone have experience with how Saris handles the swap from 12mm to 15mm. Time it takes, costs etc? It's hard to give up the PT for too long now we are in race season :)

   
 
 
 



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