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Pose Runners - what shoes are you using?

brad in WA

May 19, 03 6:55

Post #1 of 19 (781 views)

Pose Runners - what shoes are you using?	Can't Post

I'm really frustrated. technically, I'm probably not a pose runner, I've never seen romanov's video, done his drills, or been to one of his camps. but I've read about his technique, I've read Yessis book Explosive Running, and read many others preaching keep your feet under you and turn them over quickly. I've been doing this for the past 1.5 years with no problems (after the initial calf adaptation).

I've been running in lightweight trainers for the past 9 months or so and was looking for a new shoe this weekend (something with less room in the toe box than the brooks burn). I'm in the Seattle Running Co store (home of 4x western states winner Scott Jurek) looking at lightweight trainers and racing flats. These guys are all real runners and not just the high school kids that most of the other decent local shops have. Anyway, they act like I'm crazy not to heel strike, and then show me on video tape how I pronate when I run. They're really trying to get me into a thick heel block motion control shoe.

Meanwhile, I try some racing flats, and love the slipper feel and the low to the ground control and road feel. But they tell me I'll probably only get 100 miles of wear out of a racing flat (that's expensive!). I realize that shoes are very specific to the runner, but am interested if others have trained in flats (like romanov says), or if most use big heel block shoes (like conventional wisdom says).

I guess I'm also wondering if even though I've had great success with finding speed through conscious running technique, why do "real runners" not acknowledge this and continue w/ the heel striking? I guess I've always thought that the whole "triathletes embrace new ideas" was really limited to the bike, but am starting to think that runners may be just as bad. Either that or I've been brainwashed by a running cult.

brad
my next race?
undecided.

Miguel

May 19, 03 7:12

Post #2 of 19 (772 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [brad in WA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Nike sock flame is a great racing shoe with a bit more strength. Looks pretty ugly but fast and solid.

If you have been running alot of miles for a year and a half, without injury, you probably do not need the big heel those luddites are offering you.

M

Dr. Dre'

May 19, 03 7:36

Post #3 of 19 (757 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [brad in WA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Brad,
I can't say I'm good at this POSE business, but I'm running with my feet underneath my body and my stride is really short. i used to run with Brooks Adrenaline, and found that the toe box was too roomy. Furthermore, it seems that the gel pad in the front makes the shoe pretty stiff. I also used a pair of Brooks Hyperion Racer (a "long distance" flat). With a very flexible forefoot, the shoe gives me better control: I can tune my stride to run completely noiselessly. I am faster with the racers.

At some point, I went to Elite Feet (Kansas City) with The Girlfriend, and we talked to the lady there. Like the people at your store, she couldn't care less that I didn't heel strike, and kept having me try pronation control shoes. I now run with the Mizuno Wave Alchemy. As much support as the Adrenaline, if not more, but the same forefoot flexibility as the Racer (of course, with more protection). I found very little difference in speed between the Alchemy and the Racer, both being faster than the Adrenaline. I don't know how much weight affects speed, but I know that flexibility seems to play a big role.

The Alchemy has the big-ass heel, but it's not as extreme as the Adrenaline's. The forefoot of the Alchemy is also more durable than the Alchemy's (I won't mention "durability" and Racer in the same sentence). I also noticed that I wear the sole of the Alchemy "better". Maybe forefoot strikers don't need stability shoes, but as a midfoot striker, it seems that it made a difference in my case.

Dre'

baldguy

May 19, 03 7:51

Post #4 of 19 (744 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [brad in WA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Don't listen to them!

I ran heel-first for many years and always had problems with plantar fascitis as well as hip pain (I wore Asics GT-2060s). Then I switched to Pose-style running last April (exactly like you: no Pose video/book, but read the concepts, read Gordo's Running Technique info, Gordon Pirie's site, Explosive Running, etc.). I have not had ANY PF or hip pain since.

I run in the Mizuno Precision III and Brooks Burn. The Burns are OK (I only bought them as an experiment and I probably won't buy a second pair, mainly because of the toe-box width you mentioned) but the Precisions are the best shoe I have ever run in. I HIGHLY recommend them.

(FWIW, I will probably buy the Pose video anyway, just for the drills and the visual confirmation that what I'm doing is correct.)

Ashburn

May 19, 03 9:07

Post #5 of 19 (710 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [brad in WA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"...Anyway, they act like I'm crazy not to heel strike, and then show me on video tape how I pronate when I run...."

Just because they're experienced runners doesn't make them right. If they're fast, they don't heel-strike either. No fast runners do. They "think" they do because shoe companies tell them they do. And your friendly clerks sell shoes for a living.

And -- You're supposed to pronate!!! It's God's own shock-absorption built right into your feet! I'm not a physio, but I spent weeks searching for and reading articles trying to find some truth in all the myth. I am convinced by the most state of the art research -- particularly true epidemiology-type research that shows no connection between pronation and running injuries. Under pronate; over pronate; nuetral pronate -- everyone has the same degree of risk of running injury. Shoe salesmen and shoe makers have a bias to sell you special shoes. Doctors and researchers that actually approach the subject come away a bit more open-minded. The best shoe-selection reading I came across seemed to say that shoe selection should be one of your own comfort. Everyone's legs and feet respond differently to different shoes.

I migrated from big heavy support shoes all the way to pure racing flats. I've since moved back up a little to lightweight cushioned trainers. I search for shoes with the flattest heels. I also twist shoes in my hands -- I want them to flex a lot in the torsion plane. I want my feet to pronate properly. I got much of this excellent advice from a chiropractor/triathlete/podium-finisher-in-Kona here in San Diego named Linda Jannelli.

Mizuno Precision is my favorite. I did IMUSA in the Mizuno Phantom racing flat and a marathon in Asics Gel Racers. I liked the Racers, but they only lasted about 100 miles, and that's not good enough for everyday running.

I ran in support shoes for a year. Had excrutiating knee and lower leg pain. Then, I did Pose drills and learned how to run with my feet under me, and with quick little steps. I moved to lightweight, very flexible shoes. I run every day now, about 35-45 miles a week, with the occasional 60 mile week. No pain.

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Khai

May 19, 03 10:37

Post #6 of 19 (664 views)

SHOES!!! The bane of my running existence... [In reply to]	Can't Post

I should preface this by saying that I have duck feet. They're short, wide, and flat. As such, finding ANY shoes that fit me properly is a challenge, but finding good (POSE friendly) flats has been nearly impossible for me.

Every shoe manufacturer out there who makes a racing flat stops at either D or EE width. My dogs require EEE, so I've been SOL for a long time. And believe me, I've looked. I've tried flats. I've tried "almost flats" I've looked into spikeless cross-country shoes. I've even had the owner of an excellent running store harass every single company rep he knows (one of the perks of being buddies w/ the shop owner) in search of a wide flat. Yeah, fat feet suck.

If you aren't in my particular dilemma however, the greatest shoe I've ever slipped on is by far the NB 920 - it's the "Triathlon" shoe, and it rocks in every way other than it's size range stops at one too narrow (EE as opposed to EEE). I ran in a pair of them (EE's) for around a month, and they were the best shoes I've ever felt. Light, comfortable, no weird pressure points or bad stitching, NO heel wedge, just enough cushioning, nicely vented.... Alas, my right foot was getting crushed and I had to send them back. I begged the NB rep to make a EEE, and he said "Officially, I'll make a not of that request - but off the record, it's unlikely". So maybe I can't wear 'em. But [i]you[/i] could...

http://www.newbalance.com/productbrowser/product_details.html?g11n.enc=ISO-8859-1&feature=Training&gender=Men&product=M920NW&product_type=shoe&sport=Running

<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Trirunner

May 19, 03 11:39

Post #7 of 19 (627 views)

Re: SHOES!!! The bane of my running existence... [Khai] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Khai,

I also have the 920 and really like them. I believe that they are very narrow shoes. I had to go EE when I usually don't need to consider width when buying shoes.

Anyway, I was wondering whether you considered the New Balance M831 shoes. They are fairly light and go up to EEEE.

Carl

May 19, 03 11:51

Post #8 of 19 (617 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [brad in WA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm with you and my fellow cheddarhead Dave as a POSE poseur...no videos, just Gordo's pics and prose, etc.

As a slight-to-moderate overpronator I tend towards motion control shoes with a budget-conscious mindset. For the last 4yrs I've been a solid NB fan for my shoes. First the 71x series up through the 713's (714 and 715 didn't feel right for some reason) and then the 76x series. been so happy with my 763's that I picked up several pairs at the '02 DC Marathon expo. about 100mi into my 2nd to last pair right now and dreading the day I have to try and find a replacement.

interestingly, of late I've been opening up my stride a little more and dropping the rpms ever so slightly while still consciously keeping my feet under me when I hit and I'm going faster than ever for the same heart rate. I was probably "spinning" a tad fast before and not getting everything out of my legs as far as power. POSE principles still apply though. YMMV.
(yeah, I work at Trek...it's not a crime)

Barry K.

May 19, 03 13:15

Post #9 of 19 (585 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [brad in WA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Much like you, I've worked to change my running form to being more POSE like. I haven't done the Pose program either, but have read a lot about the technique and have watched the video. I started by buying one of the racing flats that Dr. Romanov suggests on his site, the New Balance RC240SB. They are very light and I like that, but I kept feeling like I wanted just a little more shoe. I didn't like the fact that if I stepped on a rock, it felt like it was jabbing clear through the shoe. Besides, when you see them in person, they are pretty ugly (IMO).

I recently found the Asics Gel-Verdict and I love it. It's technically a lightweight trainer, but it's darn near as light as a lot of racing flats. It does have some heel, but not nearly as over engineered as many other shoes I tried on. It has just enough cushion, and a durable sole, but doesn't feel like too much. I think it's a great shoe for Triathletes as it has a lot of mesh venilation and rather than a tongue, it has a socklike fit. I felt that this shoe was a great middleground between a ultralight flat and an overengineered typical running shoe.

brad in WA

May 19, 03 17:23

Post #10 of 19 (525 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [Barry K.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments. yesterday was pretty frustrating, driving all over town to try all the different shoes I wanted to try. All these comments help me feel like I'm not crazy. I've got some more shoes to go try now. thanks

brad
my next race?
undecided.

Khai

May 19, 03 17:47

Post #11 of 19 (514 views)

Re: SHOES!!! The bane of my running existence... [Trirunner] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for the tip, Trirunner! I'm always eager to hear suggestions for wide, flat shoes. :D

Khai

<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

TriDi

May 19, 03 21:25

Post #12 of 19 (474 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [brad in WA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I too have had problems finding the right shoe with my recent conversion to Pose. My problem is I develop blisters on the soles of my feet and end up having to purposely heel strike toward the end of long runs just to finish. Has anyone else had this problem? Maybe I'm just running incorrectly?? I am also Pose self-taught with video guidance. I'm running in Adidas Boston's right now which seem to be the most tolerable shoes I can find. I also find I can survive with a foot strike somewhere between how I used to run and how I imagine I should be running using the Pose technique.
Help!
TriDi

Tai

May 19, 03 22:37

Post #13 of 19 (469 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [brad in WA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

asics 2080, stability shoe but nice flexibility and cushioning in the forefoot and if you don't heel strike you won't even notice the mild stability post, a bit wide though. Asics DS-trainer for a little firmer, tighter, and unfortuanately less flexible forefoot. Nike span triax-very flexible forefoot but wears out a little on the fast side, Mizuno waverider-flexible forefoot and great cushioning but a bit roomy
www.SUPERTRIATHLETE.com www.TAIGRAPHX.com
supertriathlete.com is under construction, should be done soon..

For ordering info, please email me at tai@taigraphx.com, PMs are great but please use them for ST stuff only:) thanks!

dre125038

May 20, 03 6:08

Post #14 of 19 (429 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [brad in WA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Another shoe nobody has mentioned yet: New Balance 831s have made it into my regular rotation. They're rather drab, but they feel good on my feet and they're at that nice weight point one step above flats. Plus they come in different widths...

Now that I've escaped the cloying grip of motion-control, medial posts, arch locks, diagonal rollbars, etc., I'll never go back. (Nor will I return to heel-striking.)

Dan

textrirunner

May 20, 03 7:04

Post #15 of 19 (417 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [dre125038] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dan,

You beat me to it. I have been wearing the 828 series since their origination (now the 831's). For a lightweight trainer, it doesn't get any better than this. The shoe holds up pretty good too. I usually get about 300 out of mine and they are pretty affordable. I must also suggest the Adidas Clima Control. These are great for hot day pavement pounding.

dre125038

May 20, 03 7:26

Post #16 of 19 (405 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [textrirunner] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tex,

I get a wide (nominally EE although I don't think they're really that wide) in the NB831s to get the toebox big enough. How do the Adidas Clima Controls compare? Do you wear the normal D in NB831s? (Now that the arrival of summer is threatening the Great White North, I have to ponder the possibility of pounding hot pavement.)

Thanks,

Dan

Ben in WI

May 22, 03 15:47

Post #17 of 19 (283 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [brad in WA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm similar to everyone else, no official POSE training, but POSE-like nonetheless. I really liked the New Balance 831, but got about 300 miles out of that pair before wearing through the rubber. They were out of my size at my running store when I went to buy a new pair and ended up with Nike Air Skylon which I think I like even more after a 10 mile and a 3 mile run. Both were light and comfortable.

Khai

May 22, 03 17:17

Post #18 of 19 (259 views)

New discovery... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well, the NB 831's felt like great shoes, but apparently no-one stocks the EEEE, and the EE's were too tight. On a lark I slipped on a pair of 240's and much to my surprise, discovered that they weren't too tight! This is because unlike the other shoes (920, 831, etc), these have a completely mesh upper in the toebox - so my bunions and whatever can just "hang out there", pushing the mesh aside. :) Naturally they didn't have my size in stock either, but I ordered a pair and hope to get them within a couple of weeks.

Will post my thoughts after I've put some mileage on them.

<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

Robert

May 23, 03 17:35

Post #19 of 19 (202 views)

Re: Pose Runners - what shoes are you using? [brad in WA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

New Balance. See the bottom of this article from the www.posetech.com web site.

http://www.posetech.com/store/shoe.html

-Robert
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." -Anais Nin