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Physiology question - altitude
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jkenny5150
Oct 1, 08 22:38
Post #1 of 33 (730 views)
Physiology question - altitude
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A question for those who have experience training at altitude...
What altitude is generally required to gain a noticeable difference in training? I realize that there is some subjectivity here, but I was wondering what difference people have experienced between training at 3000, 4000, 5000, 7000, 9000, etc.
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Sojourner
Oct 1, 08 23:18
Post #2 of 33 (717 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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I begin to notice there is something wrong with my powermeter when I'm above 4000'.
skid
Oct 2, 08 0:20
Post #3 of 33 (707 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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For a guy like you I would suggest you go right to 7,000ft.+ and stay for at least 3 weeks to get a significant benefit. Any less time or altitude is probably not worth the trouble. If you had more time then I would suggest 2-3 weeks at 6500ft and then as long ast 6 more weeks at 8,000ft+. The altitude you sleep at is jsut as important as the altitude you train at - mabe more-so. It also pays to do a little altitude simulation at home for a few weeks prior to going to altitude to make the transitioneasier and enable you to train fairly normal straight away upon arrival. Having good iron stores an staying on top of the iron is also essential.
A normal person would probably be better off to go to 5-6,000ft. for at least a week first, then go up from there. Also, each time you go to altitude you seem to adapt a little quicker and easier.
Cheers,
Scott Molina
tigerchik
Oct 2, 08 1:16
Post #4 of 33 (693 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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Can't answer your question directly, but here are some quick notes from the exercise phys textbook from last semester:
-The challenge of altitude is from decreased ambient PO2, not the reduced total barometric pressure or a change in concentration of gases in the air.
-Oxygen transport cascade: progressive change in the pressure of oxygen in the environment
-Short term anaerobic power activities (sprint running, jumping, shot put, discus) are NOT affected at altitude
-Acclimatization: the adaptive response in physiology and metabolism that improve one's tolerance to altitude hypoxia
-Immediate effects of acclimatizaiton - increase in respiratory drive --> relative hyperventilation, increase in blood flow at rest and at submaximal exercise
-Long term: regulation of acid-base balance in the body that becomes altered by hyperventilation, increased production of hemoglobin and red blood cells, loss of lean and fat mass
-Vo2 max decreases linearly at a rate of ~10% per 1000m increase in altitude
citation... Exercise Physiology: Nutrition and Energy for Human Performance, Sixth Edition (McArdle, Katch, Katch)
so the last point should be useful to you, knowing that vo2 max keeps declining the higher up you go...
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noel noel
feman
Oct 2, 08 1:33
Post #5 of 33 (686 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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At an ACSM conf that had a speaker on this subject high altitude training must be done a 9000 or more and the benefits are marginal - and are lost in about 18 days. The ref below is a good read.
http://jap.physiology.org/...ntent/full/100/1/203
Graham Wilson
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brentl
Oct 2, 08 2:53
Post #6 of 33 (677 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [feman]
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that study has just about no applicability to the original question. altitude exposure was intermittent, normobaric, and training was conducted at a lower altitude.
this is a pretty trick subject to effectively study, which is why there isn't much good data.
jackmott
Oct 2, 08 4:46
Post #7 of 33 (663 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [tigerchik]
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that works out to a V02 Max of about 0 at the top of Everest...
sounds about right!
In Reply To
-Vo2 max decreases linearly at a rate of ~10% per 1000m increase in altitude
ianm98
Oct 2, 08 4:54
Post #8 of 33 (658 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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Not sure if this helps, but I can recommend not going to Quito, Ecuador (approx. 9800ft), and trying to do 1km repeats hard on a tread mill (done usually at 1500ft.) on the day you arrive. It's pretty embarrassing when you have to keep slowing down the machine to keep from getting thrown off the back as you struggle to breathe.
Ian
matti58
Oct 2, 08 5:51
Post #9 of 33 (640 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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I live at about 1,000' and rarely train at altitude. I was in Durango, CO for work this summer and did a few runs at around 6,500'-7,500' and I noticed a HUGE difference, especially while running up hills. My HR seemed very high, my breathing was labored, and my head was pounding. I was very surprised at the difference.
J\V
Oct 2, 08 7:39
Post #10 of 33 (620 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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I begin to notice there is something wrong with my powermeter when I'm below 4000'.
:)
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Sojourner
Oct 2, 08 10:07
Post #11 of 33 (583 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [J\V]
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I begin to notice there is something wrong with my powermeter when I'm below 4000'.
:)
Same for me when I used to live above 6000'! Now that I live at 1000', unfortunately the "below" turned into "above". Am trying to get back to living around 6750', but this housing market is kind of tough.
To the OP, I think we are similar in terms of our fitness levels and Scott summed up my feelings pretty well. When I first moved from sea-levelish up to 6250', it took me about 4 weeks to feel like I was out of the red and into the black.
eganski
Oct 2, 08 10:09
Post #12 of 33 (580 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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Congrats on your win in Westchester. Way to come out of nowhere! Are you racing in Dallas?
http://web.me.com/...My_Blog/My_Blog.html
jkenny5150
Oct 2, 08 10:58
Post #13 of 33 (557 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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Thanks for all your responses. I actually am asking mostly because I trained up at Big Bear Lake for a few days between LA and Malibu and I noticed a huge difference. I did some nice climbs and some running on the trails up to 8000' or better. I really noticed a huge difference in just a few days of quality training (and rest helps too). I think that was a big reason for my success at Malibu and West Chester.
Living on the east coast, it's really tough to find anything resembling altitude, but I was thinking of doing some mountain training next spring in MD, VA, or NC. It seems like there are a lot of peaks in the 3000-4000' range within a reasonable distance of my house and there are some 6000' peaks in NC, but that's a good 10 hour drive from me. Obviously 6k is better than 3k, which is better than 0. I am wondering whether this difference is substantial enough to make the travel. My thoughts are that the 6k would be, but the 3k and 4k may be more similar to training at sea level.
Also, would a less fit rider see the same benefit at 3000-4000 that I might see at 6000?
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roady
Oct 2, 08 11:19
Post #14 of 33 (541 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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Also, would a less fit rider see the same benefit at 3000-4000 that I might see at 6000?
from all of the available research I've seen, and from what I've observed with different athletes, no. There seem to be some responses on this thread that equate a high fitness level with response to altitude, but this just doesn't seem to exist--it's highly individual
Also, while it doesn' seem to be scientifically documented, I've seen enough to be convinced of a non-linear response to altitude, i.e. little/no effect up to 4K, then a pretty rapid effect after that.
As far as the benefits to altitude training, it seems pretty individual, so you're really not going to know if training @ 4-6K is 'worth it' for you until you try it.
Nacly
Oct 2, 08 18:40
Post #15 of 33 (507 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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I live at 7300 feet, and most of my training occurs between 5500 ft and 8500 ft. While living at altitude isn't quite the same as specific altitude training, I do note that for shortish races at around sea-level I really can't spin it up, but I also don't get the super painful lactate bath. I mostly feel like I couldn't have gone any faster, but I could probably go again almost as fast. I notice that I can swim hard and not get that tired, and for straight up runs I feel like a diesel train - tons of bottom-end no top end. That might all be function of the type of training I do these days. After long efforts it is all about the same, the fatigue kicks all aerobic ass. It took me three years before I felt completely normal. Humidity trumps altitude.
sailnfast
Oct 2, 08 22:03
Post #16 of 33 (469 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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I'm curious how difficult it was to run at 8000ft? I'm heading to Estes Park, Colorado next week for 10-days (work conference) and am going to try and run everyday. I'm wondering how I'll feel given I live and train at sea level. Will I be able to go out and run a 10k no problem? Any thoughts and/or recs?
"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." -- T. S. Eliot
tigerchik
Oct 3, 08 1:27
Post #17 of 33 (450 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [sailnfast]
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the whole altitude thing is fascinating to me. I live, literally, at sea level... on the Maine coast. what's it feel like to be so high up???
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noel noel
jkenny5150
Oct 4, 08 5:39
Post #18 of 33 (414 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [sailnfast]
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Based on my experience, it will be very difficult to run at 8000 feet, especially if you are going up any kind of steep grade. If you are reasonably fit, you should be able to complete a 10K run, but it will feel terrible (gasping for air) and it would probably be best for you mentally if you didn't look at your wristwatch. That being said... I say go for it. After 10 days, you will probably feel great when you return to sea level.
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britri
Oct 4, 08 7:32
Post #19 of 33 (394 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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I live and train at about 9500 feet (Breckenridge, CO) most of the time. I also spend some extended weeks in FL as well a couple times a year during the mud season. When going to sea level, I definitely feel, at least for the first few days, like the swimming, biking, running is much easier (minus the humidity and heat - more on that in a second) - I get a lot less winded - and sleep better as well. After a few days, at least mentally (not sure about physically), I lose the perceived advantage. From most recent experience, I did Cancun 70.3 a few weeks back. It was probably 90 degrees with 80% humidity (and on the asphalt road run portion, probably 110 degrees, no shade, very little breeze). I flew in on Friday for the race on Sunday. I thought my altitude advantage would significantly outweigh the heat/humidity advantage. By my place in the race (top 10 in my AG) it may have, but for my time (especially running) it did not seem to help much at all. I was running a 7 minute mile pretty consistently in a local running race (up to 10 miles in distance) where I live (which typically has 1000-3000 vertical gain), but in Cancun, although my timing chip stopped working after the swim, I ran about a 9 minute mile, and it was the hardest running I had done all summer (maybe ever).
As Nacly said, humidity/heat definitely trumps altitude.
If you are going to travel up to 10 hours, fly in to Denver, head west a few hours, and train in Summit County next summer. You live at 9500 and can go up to 13000+. If you feel real motivated, you can run up Quandry which is 14000+.
If there is an altitude advantage, which I think there is (just not maybe as great as some may feel, especially when factoring in heat/humidity, but I am no expert), this is certainly the place to get it.
If you can find a place on Earth that sits at 9000 feet and has a lot of heat/humidity, go there.
jkenny5150
Oct 6, 08 19:25
Post #20 of 33 (336 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [britri]
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The only problem with flying to Denver (for tri training) is that you have to deal with taking apart and rebuilding your bike, along with getting raped by the airlines in oversized baggage fees. A long drive beats a short flight in my book.
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jyeager
Oct 7, 08 6:55
Post #21 of 33 (307 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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FWIW, I think that what's recognized now as the ideal is to train at low altitude, and live at high altitude.
I suppose it's because the adaptation still occurs, yet you are able to train with a higher intensity that way.
flyer521
Oct 15, 08 15:25
Post #22 of 33 (258 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [skid]
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There are a lot of pretty high altitudes mentioned here. I am moving from Ohio to Boulder, CO over the winter, which is just over 5,000. I have heard that it at least makes some difference for the people who are there. Does 5,500 count? This altitude phenomenon is a new thing for me.
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skid
Oct 15, 08 15:47
Post #23 of 33 (241 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [flyer521]
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I lived in Boulder for 7 years. Certainly its high enough to get a positive effect from it. Its also very easy to train higher there, even in winter. Higher is better! If you x-c ski, snowshoe or run up high you'll get more from living there. In my reply to the original post on this topic I was replying specifically to him and his situation. Cheers, Scott
Sojourner
Oct 15, 08 20:33
Post #24 of 33 (212 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [skid]
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I lived in Boulder for 7 years. Certainly its high enough to get a positive effect from it. Its also very easy to train higher there, even in winter. Higher is better! If you x-c ski, snowshoe or run up high you'll get more from living there. In my reply to the original post on this topic I was replying specifically to him and his situation. Cheers, Scott
Any more thoughts on "higher is better!"? Maybe not for supra-threshold efforts, but working on sub-threshold at alittude has always felt somehow "right" to me. Can't really define it though, and it'd be nice to.
gtingley
Oct 15, 08 20:45
Post #25 of 33 (203 views)
Re: Physiology question - altitude [jkenny5150]
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From everyting I have read, the consensus for "best training" is ~9000' for sleeping, sea level for training.
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