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Penalty Proposal: Let's SHRED the legs off the drafters
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devashish_paul
Aug 27, 08 6:13
Post #1 of 99 (1792 views)
Penalty Proposal: Let's SHRED the legs off the drafters
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Embedded down in a few IMC threads is discussion about the drafting penalties being so ridiculously leniant that anyone with borderline ethics, is going to be tempted to ride a draft train all the way to T2....save many minutes on the bike but EVEN MORE MINUTES ON THE RUN.
Meanwhile, the guys and gals who ride clean arrive to T2 with shredded legs.
The 4 min penalties are bogus.
Perhaps someone can point Ritticello or PNF to this thread.
Set up a 400m penalty loop outside T2 in front of the fans. This can be a stretch of road 200m out, 200m back.
First drafting penalty is 4x400m or 1 mile
Second drafting penalty is an additional 8x400m or 2 miles
You never get DQ's....each drafting penalty, they just add as many miles so on your 3rd, you do 3 more miles, and fourth is 4 more....for arguement's sake, a guy that gets 4 penalties, has to end up running 10 miles before he even starts his marathon...chances are this guy drops out....no one kicks him out of the race.
Seriously though...the first penality adds 7-10 minutes to your time and but also slows you down at the end of the run and puts you out of touch with competition....the second penalty might mean a 20-30 minute deficit, not to mentiona running 29 miles on the day....likely to result in a huge slowdown or DNF.
The penalties need to be harder and serve as a deterrent...this would work and would provide entertainment value to the fans :-) Oh yeah and if you drafted, your mom, dad and kids all those who think you are a hero will get to see their cheating hero on full display!!!
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(This post was
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TOTRI
Aug 27, 08 6:21
Post #2 of 99 (1761 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [devashish_paul]
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It works in the Biathlon, miss a target do a lap. Those that miss normally don't win.
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xraycharlie
Aug 27, 08 6:25
Post #3 of 99 (1742 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [devashish_paul]
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I like it. Wasn't quite sure whether you were being serious when you tossed out this idea the other day, but I think it makes some sense.
I'd suggest that anyone who gets more than one drafting penalty should be required to do all of the penalty laps while wearing a really stupid hat, too.
Blakebeck
Aug 27, 08 6:28
Post #4 of 99 (1727 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [devashish_paul]
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What if you get pinched and you aren't intentionally drafting? Most who get pinched are not.
Most race venues do not support any type of loop close to transition.
The idea should be to break up whatever group...not end the athlete's race.
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BMAN
Aug 27, 08 6:28
Post #5 of 99 (1725 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [devashish_paul]
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Dev - I like the idea of drafters doing loops and think that if they have to run 1 mile extra, they might think twice about drafting.
I remember the last half iron I did, a guy kept drafting off me and it was very frustrating to say the least. He would pass me on the climbs and I would pass him on the flats and downhills. On the flats he would ride behind me until I had had enough and hit my brakes hard. He almost him me and I told him off when he got mad. Just like tail-gating in a car. If you get too close, I will hit my brakes.
Aero & Light is Right
Francois
Aug 27, 08 6:28
Post #6 of 99 (1724 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [xraycharlie]
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Back in 1996 when Nice hosted the Words LD championships there were doing exactly that. If you were caught drafting, you'd have to run a penalty lap, or 2, or 3...
TriBriGuy
Aug 27, 08 6:31
Post #7 of 99 (1717 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [devashish_paul]
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I like the idea, Dev...but I'm guessing it is not universally achievable from a logistics standpoint, even if we're just talking Ironman branded races. Some venues would find this nearly impossible to support.
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RobInOn
Aug 27, 08 6:32
Post #8 of 99 (1710 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [devashish_paul]
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I don't like it as I don't see it as any different in the way they hand out the penalties today. From the other thread it seems that there was a huge pack of up to 50 riders drafting the whole ride. I am sure if you look at the results (not possible anymore since the penalty is in the bike split) that there were not 20 penalties on the bike in total.
I can't figure out why they don't just stop the whole pack. Make them stop and then start at the front, get their number and they have to report to the penalty tent. By going through the whole group the guy on the end has a 4 minute penalty and a 5 minute wait to get through the 50 riders ahead of him. Giving out 2-3 penalties to a group of 50 riders is not a deterrent.
If the pack is smaller then it is easier to get the numbers and give them the 4 minutes in the penalty tent.
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Cornwall Triathlon
ATX TRIHEAD
Aug 27, 08 6:37
Post #9 of 99 (1689 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [RobInOn]
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I can't speak for IMC this year but I ran one of the penalty tents in LP in 2007. For our shift we had 47 drafting penalties. Not sure what the other tents had. Any idea how many at IMC?
RobInOn
Aug 27, 08 6:41
Post #10 of 99 (1669 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [ATX TRIHEAD]
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Well that is encouraging, when I did IMFL I went by three tents and only ever saw 1 cyclist in the tent. I was about 20 minutes behind the 1st peleton and 1-5 minutes behind the second peleton.
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Cornwall Triathlon
ATX TRIHEAD
Aug 27, 08 6:44
Post #11 of 99 (1660 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [RobInOn]
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At one point Jimmy rode up and hopped off the moto and said "Get ready, there are going to be 8-10 people in here in just a minute" he pulled the whole group.
M~
Aug 27, 08 6:45
Post #12 of 99 (1658 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [RobInOn]
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Having to sit and wait for 5 minutes isn't really much of a penalty. You get to recover for 5 minutes under a tent, out of the sun and I believe they even offer you water and what not. If it is a penalty, make a real penalty. While I am not sure Dev's idea would work, it's on the right track. I like the idea of making them do more of something. Maybe we should make them run around the transition area racking bikes/getting transition bags etc. :)
RobInOn
Aug 27, 08 6:48
Post #13 of 99 (1640 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [M~]
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It wasn't a 5 minute penalty, it was a 5 minute wait and then the 4 minute penalty.
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Cornwall Triathlon
unclerock
Aug 27, 08 6:48
Post #14 of 99 (1640 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [Blakebeck]
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Most race venues do not support any type of loop close to transition.
Make em run the miles on a treadmill, should be easy to rent a bunch and set them up somewhere for maximum shame effect - heck, could even put them in the penalty tent.
bluemonkeytri
Aug 27, 08 6:48
Post #15 of 99 (1637 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [devashish_paul]
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Two problems with that:
1. They don't hand out enough penalties.
and
2. They don't hand out enough penalties.
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M~
Aug 27, 08 6:52
Post #16 of 99 (1616 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [RobInOn]
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ok, but you still get my point
Fleck
Aug 27, 08 7:01
Post #17 of 99 (1583 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [Blakebeck]
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The idea should be to break up whatever group...not end the athlete's race.
Blake
Right, and I think that is the idea of the stop-and-go with the tents out on the course - they physically do break things up on the road - at least in theory. But clearly that is not happening.
If the Penalty loop was instituted, it would take some time for people to figure it out, but eventually it would. People who were thinking that they were in podium or Ironman qualifying (IQ) postions, were then loosing those positions/spots due to the fact that they had to run an extra mile or whatever, would think again the next time around.
Of course, this would really only be applicable for those, who this really matters - Pros and top AG people going for Podium spots and IQ spots. What has not be addressed in any of these recent drafting threads is the fact that there is a significant number of people in each IM race( 30%+ I am guessing) who
don't care about the drafting rules!
It's not that they don't know the rules, they just don't really care. They are there to finish. They may have done all their ride training with a group of friends, and so they hook up with people out on the course, and the suffer along together. Who's going to DQ these folks? In fact this was what set of the row between WTC/NAS and the US Tri Assoc. a few years ago. USTri came in and started DQ'ing hundreds of people!! I am not saying it's right or wrong, it's just that this did not go over to well with the WTC/NAS.
Steve Fleck
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http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
ggeiger
Aug 27, 08 7:04
Post #18 of 99 (1572 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [devashish_paul]
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Dev, A great idea that I have also advocated. This was in effect at the World Long Course Championships in Denmark as well. Pretty embarrassing to have to run penalty laps in front of thousands of spectators. I think this is the most valid proposal I've seen, but we still need to get the marshals out there, and ring people up.
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bmas
Aug 27, 08 7:10
Post #19 of 99 (1551 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [devashish_paul]
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Something needs to be done - and this sounds like as good an idea as any.
BTW - Wasn't sure what you meant by "Shed the legs off" and presume you meant "Shred the legs of"
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Diesel
Aug 27, 08 7:11
Post #20 of 99 (1544 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [Fleck]
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I still don't think to addresses the real problem. Remember, we do stuff for fear of loss or greed. While stiffer penalties might create more fear, it's still not addressing the real issue.....greed.
Draft packs occur because people WANT them to. Then don't leave the zone after being passed because they feel it's their right and why in the hell should I slow down to exit the box? After a few passes and non-exits, you now have a peloton.
IMO, it could all be cured if people actually WANTED a clean race. (I don't see that happening anytime soon).
The other problem is that any additional penalty/rule needs to be enforced. I'm not sure we need more motorcycles on course.....but perhaps some sort of random "radar zone" with cameras. I know it sounds Star Trekish, but those videos on YouTube are priceless for pointing out who the drafters are.....regardless of whether they were in the zone for less time.
ssn759co
Aug 27, 08 7:16
Post #21 of 99 (1528 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [devashish_paul]
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IM Austria did this the year I competed there -- I think it was 2001. I like the idea but like someone else said, the venue may not support it. A few treadmills would take care of that problem...
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smtyrrell99
Aug 27, 08 7:18
Post #22 of 99 (1523 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [TOTRI]
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And look how popular Biathlon is.
;-0
Styrrell
smtyrrell99
Aug 27, 08 7:27
Post #23 of 99 (1498 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [Fleck]
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Its hard to get 2000 repeat customers if you DQ people from a $500 race.
I'd like to see two waves, a competitive wave where penelaties are enforced, then a noncompetitive wave with different color numbers where anything goes. 20 minutes in between and you would have almost no mixing. You could even have some sort of reasonable quaifying time in a half to get in the competitive field.
Makes it better for the tourists, true racers, officials, and most importantly it wouldn't cost anything for the organizer.
Styrrell
desert dude
Aug 27, 08 7:29
Post #24 of 99 (1488 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [devashish_paul]
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Dev, the folks at IMNA NAS are closet readers of ST. I overheard 2 of them after IMAZ the next morning saying that we "must have done a good job on the race b/c no one on ST is complaining yet". They are well aware of the problems with the packs and drafting. But being aware and doing something about it are two different courses of action, or inaction in the case of doing nothing which seems to be the common action.
I talked with Jimmy for a long time after the first clearwater 70.3 and he had multiple good ideas, smaller waves, more waves, alternate fast men then fast women slow men etc. It really is up the the officials to make the calls.
I'd bet you dinner though, that if you have a pack of 20+ guys and the official tries to stop them majority of them, at least 50% will more or less have the f*ck you attitiude and keep going.
The responsiblity lies on the sanctioning body to insist on a safe course, large packs of triathletes are not safe, so the national organization is a failure there, the RD's to provide the appropiate course for the number of racers but we have seen the RD's have failed again and again there or they need to limit the fields to smaller numbers. The trends are going in the opposite direction. The RD's know they need more officials but then it starts to degreade the bottom line so I don't think NAS?IMNA have the balls to put out 10 more officials for financial reasons and b/c more people would bitch and complain about getting penalities, especially if they actually started to call them. It lies on the racers to try to race clean, but of course you have bad apples in every bunch. The responsibility lies once the race is in motion on the officials to actually enforce rules, break up packs but we see they consistently don't do that.
I love the idea of a penalty loop, you could probably just add it to the inside of the transition area, but the reality that I see is one of no will of those powers to be to rectifiy the situation.
IM really is ITU racing long course style with the feeble attempt to disuade it.
Until people start to vote with their pocketboocks and lets face it, there are way more lemmings then can get into these races.
Brian Stover
http://accelerate3.com
Fleck
Aug 27, 08 7:30
Post #25 of 99 (1486 views)
Re: Penalty Proposal: Let's Shed the legs off the drafters [Diesel]
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Draft packs occur because people WANT them to. Then don't leave the zone after being passed because they feel it's their right and why in the hell should I slow down to exit the box? After a few passes and non-exits, you now have a peloton.
IMO, it could all be cured if people actually WANTED a clean race. (I don't see that happening anytime soon).
Maybe.
1. I have said this many times on many similar threads. Part of the problem here is defining exactly what the bike leg of a triathlon is. What exactly is it and what philosophy are you racing under? Is it a Time Trial? Well, no not exactly, but many people think that it is their own private ITT. Is it a head-to-head bike race? Well, no not exactly, but you are in a sense racing head to head out on the course, with a staggerred start based on your swim split. What are the rules? Well, they are a mixture of pure ITT rules, with some ones that have been made up just for triathlon, but you are in fact racing head to head on the road with those around you. Confused yet?
2. Another complicating feature is, I know of exactly no one, that trains in the same sort of environment/manner on the bike that they encounter in a big triathlon. People either group ride, where drafting is encouraged/allowed or they ride solo and they are completely on their own and don't need to worry about any other riders. Who goes out for a long ride in a big group and trys to keep exactly 7m or whatever the gap is supposed to be between themselves and others on the ride - for the WHOLE ride?
So becaue of 1 & 2 people get into the bike leg of a big triathlon and they are completely bewildered, and they have no idea what they are supposed to be doing.
Steve Fleck
steve@nineteenwetsuits.com
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
(This post was
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by Fleck on Aug 27, 08 7:42)
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