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New Ironman Pro Membership

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kiwitri

Nov 9, 09 14:03

Post #201 of 238 (1394 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [mschole] [In reply to]	Can't Post

OK but how many of those pros were in the money the answer is none. on the old rules it any prize money was not earned it went back into the prize fund not back to wtc. I think it is purely around another way for wtc to make money. 4th place at the worlds should earn the right to come back the following year surely and 9th should get paid.

justhavefun

Nov 9, 09 14:09

Post #202 of 238 (1378 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [JimVance] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I know this post was a while ago, but I KNOW FOR A FACT SOME PROS (not me ;)) DO get appearance fees at IM North America races.

The bummer is that for a lot of Pros, it does mean more money out of pocket. If it is going into testing, then cool no worries. At Kona they were testing ALL OVER. They did a ton of randoms (anyone with a facebook account knows this), and they pulled a ton of peeps to the side after the pro meeting to test.

Why no redistribution of prize money? I know in some IM races in the past if someone hadn't finished within 8% of seconds time, the money was redistributed to the field. Curious why this isn't happening anymore.

All in all good stuff, love to see more quality fields and the bar raised for the "pro" athletes.

Cheers-
-Matt Lieto

trimess

Nov 9, 09 15:31

Post #203 of 238 (1292 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Fleck

Nov 9, 09 15:44

Post #204 of 238 (1277 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [trimess] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Fleck, I know you keep posting the silence at Hawaii last month, but that really is not the time for athletes to start going off about the problems in the sport. People are focused, most are nervous, they really don't want to get into heated debate about other issues. They want to stay as cool and calm as possible, and not stress

I would tend to agree with you - it's perhaps not the best time. However, when is a good time? When else do all the right people ever get together like that? Will there ever be gatherings like that to discuss these issues? Some time, somewhere, we have to move from zero dialog and interaction and communication and get the issues out on the table on both sides.

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

(This post was edited by Fleck on Nov 9, 09 15:45)

kristenp

Nov 9, 09 16:31

Post #205 of 238 (1238 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [justhavefun] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It's good to hear WTC upped their testing at Kona this year but let's be honest here, event testing isn't anything more than a political move. Let's keep the event testing but put a huge push into out of competition testing and do it right with blood. If WTC puts this extra money toward real testing I'd be closer to accepting the extra fee (but still not convinced of it!)
.......................................................
Kristen Peterson
Pro Triathlete
www.KristenPeterson.com

kiwitri

Nov 9, 09 16:55

Post #206 of 238 (1217 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [kristenp] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Urine testing at competion is not that affective and mearly window dressing if they are want to have an impact there will need to be out of competion testing to success of which will be positive tests. This may harm ironmans image so guessing they might not be that keen to go ahead with it would like to be proven wrong on that. The scenic in me thinks this is purely for the benefit of WTC. Limiting the pro field at Kona great maybe take away role down slots from the pro field but 5%of the winner is harsh and why not put the unearned prize money back into the pro field.

justhavefun

Nov 9, 09 16:56

Post #207 of 238 (1217 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Espen Wagener] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Espen, no women in Florida that swam a 1:18 got any prize money, or would have been affected by the percentage rule anyways.
-Matt Lieto

kellydunleavy

Nov 9, 09 19:58

Post #208 of 238 (1143 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [In reply to]	Can't Post

Besides the questions of what constitutes a pro, whether or not this move is fair, or if it'll benefit pros and/or the sport (which I think on the whole and in the long-term it clearly won't), the best question is why is WTC implementing the policy anyway?

When they announced their big new anti-doping program back in September it included "elite amateurs," yet elite amateurs aren't mentioned in this new $750 anti-doping registration that pros have to buy. How is that going to work? If the WTC needed merely to fund this program they could have simply charged every amateur and every pro signed up for every WTC race a $5 fee and it would have achieved nearly the same financial goal as this $750 one-time pro fee. (I'm not saying the WTC should necessarily test age-groupers or that they should charge an added $5 anti-doping fee, but that they could and it would fund their program the same.)

Instead, they chose this one-time upfront $750 pro fee with "comped entries" to all races. It's like forcing you to buy the value meal. That move, in conjunction with them buying up virtually every non-M-dot race suggests that this is more a move to corner the market on long-distance triathlon than it is anything else. And it is a move, let's just go ahead and call it bundling, that I'm fairly certain would violate anti-trust regulations in virtually every other industry.

They can charge the pro field this fee and force them into a corner, because the pro population is fairly segmented and with little structured leadership. How would they organize to stop the WTC from charging them?

The endgame is merely a total monopoly of the long-distance segment of the sport.

aliciap

Nov 10, 09 7:34

Post #209 of 238 (1022 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [kristenp] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

This is my question as a new pro who's trying to improve the exposure, participation, and overall interest in triathlon... How do we make ourselves more valuable and thus improve our relationship with AG, directors, sponsors, and media?

1. Start locally. (build personal brand through involvement with age groupers and local sponsors)
2. Build a following online. (take your personal brand to a wider audience)
3. Find success where you can. (race smaller pro races in addition to the big ones)
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aliciap

Nov 10, 09 7:50

Post #210 of 238 (998 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [dawhead] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

I continue to dream of categorized racing like cycling, but based on a ranking similar to the one computed by USAT. No more AG racing - you race your percentile. You might be racing people 20 years younger or older than you, but you know that it will be a race, not a generalized guess at power-to-age curves for the entire human population.

This is off the original posting topic, but oh well that ship has sailed.

I like the category idea similar to cycling that's been proposed by several. However, I think this would only be of interest to amateur elites. It is my impression that those amateur athletes angling for top 5, top 10 or whatever in their age groups in races wouldn't want to be bucketed in with other age groups of similar speed because it makes it harder to podium. That said, more and more races are including amateur elite waves. Sometimes with and sometimes without an additional pro wave. To gradually introduce a category system, one could consider there to be two categories above age group: 1. pro elite and 2. amateur elite, each with separate prize purses and qualifying standards. Of course, it sounds easier than it is, with a lot of details that would need to be worked out regarding how to treat rankings, qualifying standards that make sense, prize purse ranges (is it USAT or ITU that settled on the $5k total purse number?), and lots of other things that I haven't thought of.
__________________________
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Yes, I too am on Facebook. And LinkedIn. And Twitter. Which begs the question - do I exist in the physical world? Do I?

MarkyV

Nov 10, 09 12:58

Post #211 of 238 (886 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [anthony'sarmy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

M~

Nov 10, 09 13:13

Post #212 of 238 (863 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [adambeston] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Shouldn't this make the REV3 series all that more appealing. They have both age group and elite purses and could get something together with Roth with better money to challenge Kona.

I have often said all the indie-Iron distance races all over the world should get together and put on rotating championship with qualifying slots etc. perhaps it is just a matter of having one person step up to organize them all....
*****----------------------------------------*****
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MarkyV

Nov 10, 09 13:17

Post #213 of 238 (856 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

if we are going to start asking FOR things, we need to provide a demonstrable value FIRST

still sorting my way thru this thread but are we the only two that understand that statement?

Until we prove that we are nothing more than "participants" ourselves.

Working on it.

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MarkyV

Nov 10, 09 13:24

Post #214 of 238 (843 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

they've been mentored in business. they've acquired business ethics. they've learned to think outside of themselves.
but we don't have many pro triathletes who've had that sort of business background.

The wheels in my head are turning right now.....very, very, very fast.

------------------------------------------------------------
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MarkyV

Nov 10, 09 13:48

Post #215 of 238 (813 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [kristenp] [In reply to]	Can't Post

put your new website in your sig line....that's value

there is more to this game then what is to be seen on the surface. much more.

learn your opponent.... then make your move
------------------------------------------------------------
MarkyV Racing & MVA Coaching
-Proudly Sponsored by: Suplicy Bikes | Xterra Wetsuits | Generation UCAN : Super Fuel | Quarq Power Meters | BoulderRC | ROTOR | Impact Street | Wheelbuilder | Triathlon Mythbusters

Fleck

Nov 10, 09 13:49

Post #216 of 238 (813 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [MarkyV] [In reply to]	Can't Post

if we are going to start asking FOR things, we need to provide a demonstrable value FIRST

Mark - I know Jordan said this, but don't have time to find the original post.

Jordan - agreed, but my point on all of this again, DID anyone ask did any Pro Triathlete, inquire, raise a grievance, engage, or talk to the WTC? Where was the dialog?

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

MarkyV

Nov 10, 09 14:14

Post #217 of 238 (790 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I should have gone....but was so mired in my own pissed-off-ness with my broken hand i did not go.

So... the question arises...

Who is going to take the stand and rally the troops at clearwater and get a discussion going after the pro meeting????
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-Proudly Sponsored by: Suplicy Bikes | Xterra Wetsuits | Generation UCAN : Super Fuel | Quarq Power Meters | BoulderRC | ROTOR | Impact Street | Wheelbuilder | Triathlon Mythbusters

anthony'sarmy

Nov 10, 09 15:20

Post #218 of 238 (732 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [ShawnF] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Looking at Ironman Flordia results under the new rules to looks like everyone would have recieved their prize purse. I don't know about the Kona slots?

The more I think about this new rule the more I like it.
I planned on racing alot of WTC races anyways this year.
I like the fact they may test more .
I like that when I feel tired and fatigued I will have a good reason to go faster rather than hold my position near of end of the race to iwithin the 5%.

Fleck, I was at the Kona Pro meeting. No body looked like they wanted to talk about doping or rules. It's not the time for that frame of mind and not in front of your comp.

Idea?
I think we pro's should be looking for WTC to help Promote us as athletes.

I can go to MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL, and look up all the info on players and performance. If WTC wants an athlete to register as a pro under their company we should get the benefit other sports get, it could lead to a bigger following and more sponsorship attention. To help grow the pro aspect of he sport.
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-Tex

Nov 10, 09 15:25

Post #219 of 238 (722 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [anthony'sarmy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

As far as Kona spots go at IMFlorida, the women's did not roll down, and only one men's spot rolled down to 5th. So, everyone was within the time limit for Kona and prize money I believe.

Your other point is a good one in respect to people being able to look up pro profiles. ITU has this, but it is pretty much for any athlete, not just pros. It just so happens that pros end up with more results or events listed.

Brandon Marsh - http://www.brandonmarsh.com
Sponsored By - TeamTBB | ATC | First Endurance | Quarq.us

trimess

Nov 10, 09 15:39

Post #220 of 238 (710 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [-Tex] [In reply to]	Can't Post

for a previous answer USAT mandated the $5k rule (I personally think it should be lower, as in age groupers get less than $5k, turn pro if you want the money).

XTerra is another group to look at who markets their pros better. At the beginning of the season they send out a very detailed questionaire so they have something about all the pros. They definitely view the pros as a commodity, while WTC, clearly does not.

I also guarantee that if you got ride of pro fields and prize purses at WTC races, they would be back within a few years. People want to strive for the top, they want to race the best. Companies want good athletes marketing their product. That's how pro fields got started back in the day.

That in mind I understand about the value thing. But frankly, most races/sponsors really don't ask much of their athletes. I have tried to do many things for my sponsors or races, and either been turned down or just ignored.

-Tex

Nov 10, 09 15:47

Post #221 of 238 (702 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [trimess] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I forgot about Xterra. I am still on the pro list from 2004, and you are right.

I agree with the last paragraph too. You can't really put a number on it, but at EVERY race that I do...local or not, athletes like to see the results of the fastest and compare their time to those at the top of the list. I'm not saying every athlete likes to do it (because ST has certainly demonstrated time and again that a lot of the posters here don't care one bit about pros), but a lot of them do. You can't put a number on how many that might be.

Brandon Marsh - http://www.brandonmarsh.com
Sponsored By - TeamTBB | ATC | First Endurance | Quarq.us

aarondavidson

Nov 10, 09 19:37

Post #222 of 238 (631 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [-Tex] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Xterra is also a series. Working for points towards a championship. Which separates it from what WTC does.
-- Aaron Davidson

p2k2001

Nov 11, 09 6:48

Post #223 of 238 (574 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [mojozenmaster] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I vaguely remember that. It was 2000 and Matt Seeley was the unknown age grouper (at that time) who beat Chuckie V. Chuckie supposedly was hamming it up at the finish and lost the overall by simply not running to the finish. I cannot remember the time differential between those two.
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Justin D

Nov 11, 09 7:29

Post #224 of 238 (548 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [ShawnF] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't post very often and I'm late to this thread, but I wanted to share my thoughts about this new IM Membership Program. I wrote the following to the USAT elite triathlete message board and am copying it here. I apologize if some of these issues have already been addressed.

Thanks,

Justin Daerr

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

WTC claims that this 750.00 membership is being used to institute its Anti-Doping Program, but what seems flawed to me is this statement:

"For 2010 there is NO deadline entry for the Membership Program. However the Membership registration process must be completed before an athlete can request general registration to an event."

I was under the impression that the Anti Doping program was meant to incorporate random out-of-competition testing. This statement says that you do not need a membership until you race in 2010 (as opposed to having a license BY February 1st when the membership policy is started).

This would leave a list of athletes out of the testing pool until they actually decide to race in the calendar year. If this means that there is only going to be random urine drug testing at the finish line of some WTC events then I see this as a 750.00 fee for the status quo.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I also do not agree with the % rule for prize money IF the money is not redistributed to athletes that DO finish within the percentage. I believe it should be in the best interest of race directors and the WTC to put together quality fields that would (usually) make this a non-issue. Instead, this makes it appear as though races would literally try to dissuade a quality field because the extra prize money would go to the bottom line.

That does raise the quality of racing for us or them.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I find it hard to believe that this is going to do anything other than raise additional revenue for WTC. If this is not the case, then they really need to deliver a more clear and concise message of what they (specifically) plan to do with this new Ironman membership program.

-Justin Daerr

Fleck

Nov 11, 09 7:55

Post #225 of 238 (532 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [anthony'sarmy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Fleck, I was at the Kona Pro meeting. No body looked like they wanted to talk about doping or rules. It's not the time for that frame of mind and not in front of your comp.

I have already said that I agreed with that, but when is the right time? When else are all the key people together at one time? This is part of the issue and the challenge - all the key people are rarely all together and those few times that they are, thats, "not the time to talk about these things"

What do you propose?

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

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