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New Ironman Pro Membership

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R10C

Nov 7, 09 6:07

Post #51 of 238 (1535 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [macleandougj] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Or what? Sell their spots to AG's in 30 seconds or less and have a USAT mandate of less than $5k in cash prizes? The pro's as I see it have very little skin in this game...they are not where the corp. race directors make, nor where the sponsors recoup their monies.

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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.

crmartin9

Nov 7, 09 6:14

Post #52 of 238 (1526 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Actually, the full cost of a pro license would be more like $900 ($100 USAT + $750 WTC + Active.com rape of $45 to 60).

Jordan - tell me, one of the pseudo-pros that you rail against who has a pro license for the primary reason of saving money and being able to be more flexible about my race schedule, where do I belong in the sport? I'm too fast for age group racing and too slow by your elitist standards to race pro. As someone who has to work 50 hours/week at a real job and doesn't get to live off of the Bank of Dan and has to be flexible with his race schedule to accommodate his unpredictable work travel schedule, I don't have the luxury to shell out $600 entry fees a full year in advance. I guess what I'm hearing is that I don't add any value to the sport since I'm not wealthy enough to make WTC money and I'm not fast enough to make your personal race experience more lucrative.

It's sad that the sport of triathlon as a whole does not resemble the sport I started doing seven years ago. You either better be damn rich or damn fast to find a place in the sport. Emotionally well-adjusted people of average means who do the sport for the "right" reasons (simply wanting to set physical goals and have a forum in an individual sport to push their bodies to the limits) apparently no longer need apply.

I can tell you what the end result of this policy will be for me - I'll do one more of racing trying to get my money's worth in an ill-conceived attempt to get the sport out of my system and then leave triathlon all together. There's only so many times people like me get kicked in the nuts before we finally wise up and find something else more rewarding for getting our endorphin fixes.

Chris

macleandougj

Nov 7, 09 6:19

Post #53 of 238 (1517 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Record10Carbon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You're right, pros working together and forming some sort of a long-course union would certainly be a risk, which is why I presume it hasn't happened yet. It may achieve it's intended goals (higher prize purses and more exposure), or it could fail horribly and mean the end of pro racing in Mdot events. There's only one way to find out, right?

This IM Pro Membership, among it's pros and cons, provides a platform from which a union could be formed, for better or worse.

http://www.dmacleantri.blogspot.com

jonnyo

Nov 7, 09 6:53

Post #54 of 238 (1469 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [crmartin9] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Chris

what jordan mean and i agree is that the standars to be a pro are too easy. There is too many pro showing up at ironman to finish in 9h+ and would be better serve racing age group until you reach the pro level. The problem is, until the pros at ironman are real pro with real high performance....we will never have credibility. ITU as high standars and you need to be very good to get in the races. Ironman as to strive to be like this and make it a real professional sport.

The age group rank and short course racing is a good developpment phase until you reach the level.

Personaly, for ironman, a athlete should have a sub 9h finish within the last 12 months, and for women, a sub 9:45. That would cut the pro field drasticly but that would also make it a lot more serious and professional. (and that mean cutting myself as i have no sub 9h finish in the last 24 months)

So far, the one aspect that get me excited about this membership is the drug controle testing..... That is very very needed out of competition and in races....
Jonathan Caron
Professional Triathlete and Coach
jonnyoworld.blogspot.com

R10C

Nov 7, 09 6:58

Post #55 of 238 (1464 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [jonnyo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Of course I agree with you - but then, what do we do with the folks who race Pro IM and have had great results, but then turn to 70.3 and just rock...but then still want to try out the big show. I HATE to name names and I have the utmost respect for the man...but Blake Becker comes to mind. He does very well, very very well at Iron but has yet to win. Now, you put Blake on a half course and watch the hell out, he is a force and has proven it for the past few years. Now, being as Blake is a bit young and moving up fast - how would a person like him handle trying his heart out to win an IM race handle his learning of his body, his abilities and how to one day walk the walk at Kona?

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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.

desert dude

Nov 7, 09 7:00

Post #56 of 238 (1461 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'd like to see all the "pseudo-pros" be denied.

In Reply To:

Jordan, I haven't read through the entire thread since last night, but I can remember a time when you first got your pro card that you would have fallen into this category.

With the 30+ elite triathletes I've hosted over the years in my house, maybe 3-4 never fell into this category (sqw, tom evans, olaf off the top of my head) and maybe 6-8 more climbed out of this category (including you, jonnyo, sergio, & a few others).

Everyone has to start somewhere.

Brian Stover Accelerate3 Coaching, Blog
Save at TriSports.com - use code BSTOV-S when placing your order

jonnyo

Nov 7, 09 7:12

Post #57 of 238 (1447 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Record10Carbon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I guess we dont have the same definition of doing well at ironman if you are telling me that blake is doing well at ironman. I m pretty sure that both him and me will agree that he is struggling at it and not doing well. I talk enough to him to know that....He is working his ass off...but results arent there at ironman at the moment. I think he is racing florida right now...and hope he finaly breaktrough....

So yeah, someone like him would not be entering a ironman as a pro but perhaps is half ironman performance would get him in. Do you realise the level needed to race at ITU...... LOTS and LOTS of good athlete dont get to race because you need to really be at the top of the pyramid to get in. That is what we need to go for...

For the pro long distance license.... make it Sub 4:10 and sub 9h..... if you reach one of the two....you are in. If you race on ITU cuircut....automaticly in becaause we need more itu guys and girls in long distance to lift the level and give some credibility to this sport.
Jonathan Caron
Professional Triathlete and Coach
jonnyoworld.blogspot.com

jonnyo

Nov 7, 09 7:18

Post #58 of 238 (1434 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [desert dude] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Brian....we both agree i should not have receive a pro card 10 year ago! I think more developpement was needed....more short course.

Everyone as to start somewhere....that somewhere isnt racing pro at ironman until you reach the level. And starting somewhere isnt entering a world cup itu. You need to deserve that ticket first.....

no?
Jonathan Caron
Professional Triathlete and Coach
jonnyoworld.blogspot.com

R10C

Nov 7, 09 7:19

Post #59 of 238 (1431 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [jonnyo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

And alas - ITU in the US is no where near as big as IM or even Half IM. And, to that the AG's do not race at the same exact time as the Pro's so really it is not a proper comparison. There in ITU is no issue with folks being safe as there is at IM with some elite AG being right in with the mix of the Pro ranks (and thus Pro now get a head start). I cant see the issue with the prize money as pertaining to a time. What I can see is that now many Pro will game a race - so - if you are Pro and see someone like Alexander is in the game....you move on to another race and now cause one race to have a very minimal Pro card, and another a more mediocre Pro card (as the "suck pro's" would be there in mass).

The way I see it, and I bet the rest of us see it is that if you get 10th - you got 10th and should get any money due to you in that position as a Pro - time aside. But, I add another part to that and that is that if you are 10th and you are NOT a Pro....you take that money from the Pro. Then, if you keep taking Elite/Pro spots as an AG you are forced to "CAT Up" as it is in cycling.

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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.

R10C

Nov 7, 09 7:22

Post #60 of 238 (1428 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [jonnyo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

See, that is bullshit too....I am no pro - but I do know that with my body and how it works short course was never ever going to happen. 5k, I get my ass kicked....10k same....15k not so much. Same with Tri....I get killed at a sprint and can more than hold my own at a half....so, does ones personal genetics to be a long course specialist preclude them from going long at the Pro ranks because they were genetically predisposed to not perform as well at a sprint race?

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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.

Rappstar

Nov 7, 09 7:25

Post #61 of 238 (1421 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [desert dude] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

I'd like to see all the "pseudo-pros" be denied.

In Reply To:

I agree. Everyone does have to start somewhere. But I think USAT could raise the bar. Especially if there were more "elite age-group" races. When I first got my pro card, I should not have had it, that's true. But for the first full year I raced pro - 2006 (I got my license abut halfway through 2005) - I made money. I more than covered the cost of my license. In my mind, a "pseudo-pro" is certainly someone who can't even cover the $100 license cost with the prize money they make. I agree with Jonny - I don't begrudge the folks who take a license because it's available. The onus is on USAT to toughen up the standards. I'd rather see pro cards cost $1000 and then actually give someone something for it (insurance, for example). And raise the prize purse limit. It's stupid for all races with $5000 to be for elites. Bump that up to somewhere around $25,000 and then DISALLOW pros from doing races for less than that. Then you let folks who are elite age groupers race for some decent prize money. The whole system should be reworked. Of course, in doing that, some people will suffer. But personally, I don't care about the guy who is "too fast to race age group, but not fast enough to race pro." That mentality doesn't exist in any other sport. Well, maybe football, where you get to play in the CFL. ;) There are a ton of folks, for example, who were good enough to play minor league pro ball but chose to give that up to work a different job because the pay was better. Being a pro should mean one thing - you make your living from the sport. I don't get how you can be "too fast to race age group" unless you are missing out on prize money at most of the races you do. Unless that's the case, race age group. I appreciate that this is an unpopular position. But I also think it's a necessary position in order to achieve a real level of professionalism. Otherwise, there will just continue to the this massive gray area regarding "what is a pro" that I don't think benefits anyone.

jonnyo

Nov 7, 09 7:27

Post #62 of 238 (1412 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Record10Carbon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Chip

you do not understand what i m trying to explain. Any ITU guy or girl can do well at ironman with the training preparation. It s bullshit to you.... but it s not bullshit to me, jordan, tom evans and any other pros that have train with those world cup guy..... they are the best athlete in our sport and if they decided to move down to ironman.....half the money for twice the distance.... a lot of us are in trouble...

as i said, it might not make sence to YOU..... but it does make sence to PROS...... short course or long course... it s just about the training program... they are all 99% aerobic and you can cross over with those distance...
Jonathan Caron
Professional Triathlete and Coach
jonnyoworld.blogspot.com

R10C

Nov 7, 09 7:27

Post #63 of 238 (1410 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Elitest Jerk.....

BTW - you will need to resign from the ST technical staff effective immediately ;-)

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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.

desert dude

Nov 7, 09 7:30

Post #64 of 238 (1404 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [jonnyo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree. I did have my doubts about you, especially since it took you 3 years of full time training to finally beat me ;-).

I was pointing out that Jordan was being somewhat hypocritical given where he started out.

Brian Stover Accelerate3 Coaching, Blog
Save at TriSports.com - use code BSTOV-S when placing your order

Slowman

Nov 7, 09 7:32

Post #65 of 238 (1400 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [crmartin9] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"As someone who has to work 50 hours/week at a real job and doesn't get to live off of the Bank of Dan"

if you can do the work that jordan does, for the rate jordan does it, you're also eligible to live off the "bank of dan," like so many new-pros who grew up living off the "bank of ray kroc" when young and flipping burgers. jordan wins because of his hard work, smart racing, and the genes of his parents. slowtwitch does not sponsor any pros. but if a pro can code well, and quickly, a pro can apply for a job, payable by the "bank of dan." otherwise, you can move up here to the property, dig post holes, fix drip irrigation, mix concrete, and muck stalls, all funded by the "bank of dan," while you're not training. (come to think of it, that's a job i'd have taken when i was a neo-pro and forty percent of my current age.)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

trimess

Nov 7, 09 7:32

Post #66 of 238 (1399 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [jonnyo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think you are dancing around the real problem here, it's not too many pro's it's too many races. Did you see the amount of 70.3 races? This just continues to produce a watered down field at every race. ITU is more competitive because there are less events, with only 10-15 World Cups, or WCS races a year, you need to get into them. Most times the toughest competition was just being one of the six Americans that could be entered. I never was denied entry into a race (well maybe one), except when 6 better Americans wanted to go. If you decrease the amount of races, and limit the field size, then the races will automatically become more competitive.

I still believe a pro union is a long, long time off. The main reason is the incredible stratification of the pro fields. You have such a wage discrepancy among the pros, with most of them not making more than $5k a year. The top tier pros though, the ones that actually do have some pull with race directors and management, don't want to rock the boat and ruin their meal ticket. While the ones that a union would help the most go unheard and chided on this forum as being "pseudo-pros". I am not saying anyone deserves to earn a living in the sport, but the trickle down effect does not occur in triathlon. And frankly there is no incentive for the handful of pros making decent money to help out the ones who are not. This is where the governing bodies come in. I think they are the only ones in a position to mandate a "union" to the professional field. Problem is, through a series of incredibly high qualification standards, they have virtually prevented anyone who who is not in the top 10% of the pro field from serving on board positions and having any power in the organization. The rich continue to get richer in triathlon.

And I am a perfect example of a previous poster talking about people just walking away from the sport. I don't want to deal with it anymore (but it is fun to come on here and argue about it).

R10C

Nov 7, 09 7:35

Post #67 of 238 (1393 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [jonnyo] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sure, but over what time period? I may not be a Pro tri guy but did race bikes at a very high level and was planning to try to go pro...but, just as Pro cycling has "specialists" - be it TT, Climbing, Sprinting and on and on right down to the domestic's. I see the same delineation in Tri as well.

Do you think that an ITU pro can race in the top ranks of IM in the same year? If not, how many years of dedicated IM training do you think would be needed to race IM at that level?

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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.

jonnyo

Nov 7, 09 7:37

Post #68 of 238 (1391 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [trimess] [In reply to]	Can't Post

i agree with you in many aspect.

Lets keep those 40 70.3 half ironman races around the world. And lets make sure only 10 of those have prize money.... BIG one..... so the people that reach the pro level can make more than there traveling expense out of a 3rd place.......

Same for ironman..... have a rotation of prize money... this year,IMC IMLP etc... next year, other races....and get bigger purse...

that s my opinion anyway...

.
Jonathan Caron
Professional Triathlete and Coach
jonnyoworld.blogspot.com

desert dude

Nov 7, 09 7:44

Post #69 of 238 (1373 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Record10Carbon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Do you think that an ITU pro can race in the top ranks of IM in the same year? If not, how many years of dedicated IM training do you think would be needed to race IM at that level

In Reply To:

quite possibly. There have been numerous instances of ITU guys doing an IM and doing quite well in their first race. Otherwise it's going to take them 1-2yr max if they are a top level ITU guy. Although a top level itu racer has no incentive to go race the im/him circuit bc it's really a pay cut for them even if they win a bit.

Brian Stover Accelerate3 Coaching, Blog
Save at TriSports.com - use code BSTOV-S when placing your order

adambeston

Nov 7, 09 7:53

Post #70 of 238 (1354 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [desert dude] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Shouldn't this make the REV3 series all that more appealing. They have both age group and elite purses and could get something together with Roth with better money to challenge Kona.

bobo

Nov 7, 09 8:07

Post #71 of 238 (1340 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

This is the latest re-hash of an old argument, but the basic facts haven't changed/or been remedied.
"Professional" triathlon, to quote a former true pro, is aptly described as "a box full of rats fighting over one Cheeto"

There is not now nor has there ever been too many pros ("Are you in the 3rd or 4th pro wave?"). Maybe there's the occasional chubby guy who scammed a pro card, but is that really hurting the sterling reputation and earning power of ye true-blue pros? I don't see that.

There is not now nor has there ever been real professional prize money or opportunity to make a real living, i.e. one comparable to what a competent intelligent educated professional (engineer, architect, solar contractor, indian chief, Acorn pimp etc.) can make, for 99.5% of pros. For one example among hundreds, IMC has had the same prize $ since Bush 1 was president.
Mediocre pro bowlers make more.

Those happy with the table-scraps WTC tosses out, bon appetit! Enjoy the lifestyle, I did. And good luck, it's about to become a harder world for us all.

-bobo

trimess

Nov 7, 09 8:31

Post #72 of 238 (1310 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [desert dude] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Doing quite well in their first race, when they focused on IM and really stopped racing ITU full time. For the men at least, it is impossible to successfully do both ITU and IM in the same year. \

How much money do you think is in ITU? And if it is o great why do you think guys leave? You guys have a very skewed perspective of ITU racing based on Des Moines. Outside of federation subsidies and government funding for other countries, there is not a lot of money in the sport. The North American sponsorship market (where the real money is) is interested only in IM racing, this is why many ITU guys switch over (even foreigners). Yes someone like Gomez or Brownlee can make decent money, but you are aware that only 15 guys get paid at a world cup, right? And from 10th to 15th is so low it won't even cover your travel. So that is 15 money spots out of 75 racers, and you have admitted yourself that World Cups are the pinnacle of competition in triathlon. The ITU has the same money problems as long course races. Incredibly top heavy prize purses, with most of the athletes going home empty handed. The only saving grace was Olympic inclusion and the funding from governments/federations, that allows so many athletes to operate year in year out at a loss.

Des Moines is an exception to this. I think their guaranteed start money last year was revolutionary in the sport, and I would love to see it emulated. Everyone in a World Cup deserves to get paid (minus the few races years ago that didn't fill up).

Bottom line guys move to long course FOR the money. It's not for the challenge.

pjevoe

Nov 7, 09 8:48

Post #73 of 238 (1286 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [trimess] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi kiddos,

I'm not normally a slow-twitch reader or poster, but on this issue I was interested to read the opinions out there. I am also a professional triathlete and have my own feelings on this program. I wrote them out on my blog. It's a long read and I think some of the points are redundant with what others have expressed here, but it's my opinion. If you're interested in my thoughts:

http://www.patrickevoe.com/...nd_Race_Reports.html

Pat
www.patrickevoe.com

timboricki

Nov 7, 09 9:22

Post #74 of 238 (1241 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [ShawnF] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Let me first start off by saying that I will never be a Pro. Been in the sport for 2 seasons and will be upping the distance to 70.3 this year.
Regardless of my inexperience, what IM Racing / WTC need to provide to allow the pros to make a decent living is greater exposure (IE - sponsorship money).
I'm sure that being sponsored by a bike company, a wetsuit company, and a nutrition company is great. But until Pro's are receiving $$$ from big brand companies (examples include: Any car company, companies like Nike, Cisco, Sony, Disney, etc.) they will continue to struggle financially.
Outside of the people that compete in triathlon, I would say that less than 1% of the US populaiton know who Chrissie Wellington or Craig Alexander are. IM Pro's are amazing athletes with more heart and willpower than anyone playing in the NFL on Sunday. Until the general population comes to realize this, nothing will change.
What IM racing needs is more exposure to a larger audience. No one is going to sit in front of their TV for 8+ hours to watch an event like this. But if IM racing was part of something like The X games, there would be highlights shown to a large audience.

R10C

Nov 7, 09 9:26

Post #75 of 238 (1231 views)

Re: New Ironman Pro Membership [timboricki] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Have you ever watched IM from the sidelines? May as well watch golf if you are Joe the Sportsfan.

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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.

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