Calendar
Retailers
Stack & Reach
Custom Geometry Calculator
Online Training Log
MAIN
INDEX
RULES &
LEGEND
LOG
IN
Search
this forum
this category
all forums
for
All words
Any words
Whole Phrase
(
options
)
Newsletter Signup
Slowtwitch Forums
:
Triathlon Forum
:
Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene
1
2
3
4
View All
Tri Forum
Classifieds
Lavender Room
Jobs
The Womens
Print Thread
JimVance
Jul 3, 08 10:27
Post #1 of 84 (2895 views)
Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene
Can't Post
From Runnersworld.com:
July 02, 2008 Start Lists: Who's in, Who's out, and Who's Threatening to Sue?
by Amby Burfoot
It’s a slow day here in Eugene-the second “off day” in the Track Trials—except for all the frantic phone calls, emails, and protests-in-the-works. Athletes are ticked off, coaches are ticked off, and now they’re trying to rally the media (like me) to their cause. They’re also discussing possible legal options. Some even believe that the USOC might be ready to fire another shot at USATF and seek an injunction to correct a confusing and illogical situation.
The issue is this: Who gets to run in the Trials, who doesn’t, and who decides? You’d think these things would be black-and-white issues. You’d think everyone would understand every step of the process.
But that’s not the case. “There’s no transparency, there’s no due process, there are no athlete rights,” says one highly regarded national coach who doesn’t want to be identified. “It’s like we’re still fighting the same fights that Pre raged against almost 40 years ago. The big decisions are being made by old men in dark rooms. And the worst thing of all is that people like me, and many athletes, are afraid to go public because of possible recriminations against us.”
To get a close-up view of the controversy, you have to study three pages on the USATF Web site. The first shows the minimum number of athletes in each event. The second shows the qualifying performances of everyone entered in the meet, and gives a preview of who will actually get a coveted start position. The third shows the actual start list positions of everyone who has cleared the final hurdle and gained a prized spot on the track.
Athletes per event.
Qualifying performances.
Start lists
The big controversy right now concerns Adam Goucher’s apparent acceptance into the men’s 10,000 final. According to USATF’s stated requirements regarding the 10,000, the field should have a minimum of 24 runners. Goucher sits in 32nd place by qualifying times with his 28:43.80 Seven other runners have faster times than Goucher, but apparently have been denied start positions. Goucher has one. Huh?
Imagine that you’re one of those runners or their coaches. What are you thinking right now? You’re thinking that someone is copping to pressure from Nike-Oregon-Alberto Salazar.
To be fair, USATF Rule 11.3 (b) says that the Trials can add extra athletes “to make a competitive field.” But still, how does a slower runner, Goucher, make the field more competitive than Joe Driscoll, who has run almost 15 seconds faster than Goucher but been denied a start position? Where’s the USATF rocket scientist who’s ready to explain that one to the world?
The Nike-Salazar camp isn’t helped any by what happened in the 5000. Two Salazar athletes, Galen Rupp and Josh Rohatinsky, ran the first round of the 5000 last Friday night and qualified for the finals. Apparently this was part of their speed training for the 10,000. But Rupp and Rohatinsky scratched from the 5000 finals Monday night. Nonetheless, the damage had already been done to a handful of other 5000-meter runners who never made it to the start line of the Olympic Trials, because they were displace by Rupp and Rohatinsky. That has a nasty stench to it.
As does this comment from another coach who must remain anonymous because this coach, like the one above, fears payback from USATF. “These are people who we do receive some funding from,” the coach notes. “We are somewhat dependent on them for our program. But I will say I’ll have a big struggle with a decision that expands the field from 24 to 25, and does not do so in sequential order of performance.”
The same coach adds: “I’ve seen USATF make last minute decisions before. There’s still time to take action on the 10,000. The final start list hasn’t been posted. Let’s hope for the best.”
A similar sloppy situation is brewing in the men’s 1500. According to the Trials schedule, 12 men will run in the semifinal, and 12 in the final. But only 10 are being allowed to start in the first round. That means qualifiers 31 through 36 don’t get to run in the Olympic Trials. Somehow, that doesn’t seem right. The difference between the 30th qualifier and the 36th is about half a second. If 12 runners can fit on the track for the final, why can’t 12 get squeezed into the first round when the stakes are much, much lower?
Especially when one is a member of the Oregon Track Club, one is running for the U.S. Army, and several are youngsters running for Jerry Schumacher, one of the country’s most highly esteemed coaches.
I don’t know how USATF ultimately decides who gets to run and who doesn’t. But something’s wrong here. And I hope it gets cleared up fast. USATF is supposed to be an organization devoted to developing great track and field talent. Right now, it seems to be discouraging as many runners as it’s helping.
UPDATE TO STORY: At 7:30 p.m. this evening (Eugene time) Indianapolis-based attorney Jonathan Little provided further details about the ongoing negotiations among USATF, coaches and athletes concerning the men’s 10,000-meter start list. Little is a 2:21 marathoner who qualified for last November’s Olympic Marathon Trials in New York, where he finished 97th in 2:33:03. In a phone interview, Little said he has become involved in the controversy because he hopes to “make the process more fundamental and fair, to restore integrity and transparency, and to prevent this sort of thing from happening again in the future.”
Additional comments from Little, who has apparently been assisting coaches and athletes in their approach to USATF: “It’s important that everyone understand this is not about penalizing Adam Goucher. We have no ill will toward Goucher, who is not the one responsible for this situation.
“Things are moving along very well. I believe everyone involved wants a sensible outcome. I believe the cooler heads at USATF will prevail, and more athletes will get to run. I don’t think it’s going to go any farther than it has. From a legal standpoint, this is a beautiful case.
“My biggest concern is that there are so many athletes and coaches who are scared to voice their feelings. These people are petrified. Perhaps their fear is needless, but they are worried about reprisals.”
BRIEF THURSDAY MORNING UPDATE: In a street corner press conference at 9 a.m. this morning just two blocks from Hayward Field, attorney Jonathan Little said that he has been told USATF will not budge from its start list plan for the men’s 10,000 meter race. That plan apparently includes Adam Goucher, but does not include seven runners with faster times than Goucher. The final Friday start lists have yet to be posted at the USATF web site.
Little said that he had spoken an hour earlier with acting USATF CEO Bill Roe. Roe said that he would have a conversation with John Chaplin, who seems to have final say over start list decisions. At the same time, Roe acknowledged that he has no organizational control over Chaplin and the start-list decisions. Roe also told Little that he should probably continue with his plans to file an arbitration appeal this afternoon.
Little says that an arbitration hearing is tentatively scheduled for later this afternoon. It would include him, representing the aggrieved athletes, a USATF attorney, and an arbitration attorney who could render a decision within in hour. The arbitration would take place under USOC guidelines, and be binding on all parties. “I can only imagine two outcomes,” said Little. “The arbitrator might find that the field should be limited to 24 athletes, which would not include Goucher. Or he might decide to include all the runners up to Goucher.”
Jim Vance
jvance@trainingbible.com
http://coachvance.blogspot.com/
http://ironmanexpedition.blogspot.com/
http://www.trainingpeaks.com/JimVancePlans
(This post was
edited
by JimVance on Jul 3, 08 10:34)
CTL
Jul 3, 08 10:59
Post #2 of 84 (2780 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [JimVance]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
If they just had a qualification time, and anyone that makes the time can show up and run the event, then this would not be a problem. Seems to work out fine for swimming.
Tri N OC
Jul 3, 08 11:02
Post #3 of 84 (2750 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [JimVance]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Don't forget the impact of NBC and a telegenic wife who is also on the team. NBC spent a few moments talking about the husband/wife aspect of the two of them in the running. That has got Kona broadcast type human interest story all over it.
NYCTri
Jul 3, 08 11:03
Post #4 of 84 (2734 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [CTL]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
to add fule to the fire. The fact that Galen rupp is allowed to compete for Oregon is a joke. He "turned pro" after HS and was partly funded by Nike/Salazar for a year or so. Then all of a sudden he was allowed to compete for Oregonn. While I do appreciate the enormous amount of money that Nike throws at track and field and college sports its influence has gone too far.
Rupp and Rohinsky running the 5K prelims with no intention of running the final is just wrong. Reward some other athlete who busted his ass for the last 10years or so with a chance in the trials. Don't even get me started on Rupp sprinting for the win in the prelim round and raising the number 1 salute.
JW
JW
Record10Carbon
Jul 3, 08 11:06
Post #5 of 84 (2709 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [NYCTri]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
I have not given a rip since my days at OTC, and then shortly after they started to let "Pro's" into the games - back in the day if you were pro you could not play at the Oly games....but then we got beat in basket ball and had to fix that.....Enter MJ...
smtyrrell99
Jul 3, 08 11:09
Post #6 of 84 (2691 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [CTL]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Its a bit different because because swim races are pretty close to a time trial, and shorter, so rounds are easier to handle. That said with running, they do have hard and fast rules. All A qualifiers make it and Bs get in, up to 24 runners, in order of qualifying time. If more than 24 As are quaulified, then they have 2 rounds with up to 24 per round.
The problem now is they didn't follow the rules, and there is no way to absolutely go back and fix it to everyones satisfaction.
Styrrell
h2ofun
Jul 3, 08 11:13
Post #7 of 84 (2643 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [smtyrrell99]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Why, just follow the rules.
Dave
smtyrrell99
Jul 3, 08 11:13
Post #8 of 84 (2641 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [NYCTri]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
I can't say that I like R&R for running the prelim with no intention of running finals, but they qualified fair and square and no rules are broken so I can live with it, although I wish the rules were changed to allow the next guys in the prelims to advance. The 10k is different, clearly a rule is being broken.
Styrrell
smtyrrell99
Jul 3, 08 11:15
Post #9 of 84 (2625 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [h2ofun]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
I'm not sure what you why is asking, I agree they should have followed the rules. They didn't and they can't unring the bell.
Styrrell
h2ofun
Jul 3, 08 11:23
Post #10 of 84 (2575 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [smtyrrell99]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Why can they not unring the bell? They have not done the race yet have they?
Dave
Tri N OC
Jul 3, 08 11:27
Post #11 of 84 (2526 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [smtyrrell99]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Why can't they let them all run? Isn't that what they did with the girls when they had the pile up in the semi round to get Shalane Flannagan into the finals?
Uncle Phil
Jul 3, 08 11:27
Post #12 of 84 (2524 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [NYCTri]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
In Reply To
Rupp and Rohinsky running the 5K prelims with no intention of running the final is just wrong.
How is that just wrong? It happens in other sports...such as the swimming trials that ar also going on. If athletes aren't fast enough to make the prelims, then too bad. They should have run faster in the first place so they wouldn't be on the bubble.
fenack
Jul 3, 08 11:29
Post #13 of 84 (2510 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [NYCTri]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
I was actually curious about this and many other athletes like Rupp. What's the deal? Can they not accept money while they're competing for NCAA? The recent h.s. graduate who ran in the 100M in the trials sparked my curiousity on this matter.
smtyrrell99
Jul 3, 08 11:29
Post #14 of 84 (2504 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [h2ofun]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Goucher was told prior to the 5k that he would be in the 10. He quit the 5k when he knew he wouldn't qualify to save himself. If he isn't let in now he could assert that he would've run the 5 differently
Styrrell
smtyrrell99
Jul 3, 08 11:32
Post #15 of 84 (2490 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [Tri N OC]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Suppose Goucher gets 3rd. 4th sues saying he shouldn't have even been let in. In the 800, their is at least precedence for advancing others if an act of God occurs in a race.
Styrrell
FLA Jill
Jul 3, 08 11:43
Post #16 of 84 (2437 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [fenack]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
If you want to compete at an NCAA school, you aren't allowed to accept more than having travel expenses paid to certain meets and awards valued like less than $50.
Speaking of entry controversy, the Let's Run Grassy Knoll crowd is also speculating that the heats of the 1500M were not random draw, but set up to make it easier for certain big names to advance to the finals.
fenack
Jul 3, 08 11:47
Post #17 of 84 (2405 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [FLA Jill]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
yeah that's what i figured. so what's nyctri's problem with rupp being a runner at oregon? was there some money exchanged when he while he's competed there?
Trirunner
Jul 3, 08 11:47
Post #18 of 84 (2403 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [smtyrrell99]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Are you referring to the 800m Women Semis? I don't understand what happened there and would be interested in getting an explanation. Was there any precedent in advancing athletes who ran slow because of a fall and changing the size of the finals field? Was that done while following or breaking rules?
OT in CA
Jul 3, 08 11:54
Post #19 of 84 (2355 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [smtyrrell99]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
In Reply To
Goucher was told prior to the 5k that he would be in the 10. He quit the 5k when he knew he wouldn't qualify to save himself. If he isn't let in now he could assert that he would've run the 5 differently
Styrrell
Save himself for what? He is gonna get clobbered anyways. He was a total nonfactor in the 5k despite the announcers going on an on about him.
Giant Steps
Jul 3, 08 11:55
Post #20 of 84 (2345 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [JimVance]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
Wow! That would be like letting someone get a Kona slot who clearly cheated and drafted but who has a sponsor contributing big bucks...but that would never happen, would it?
"Until your feet have trod the Road
Advise not the wayside folk." - Rudyard Kipling
monty
Jul 3, 08 12:10
Post #21 of 84 (2273 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [JimVance]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
The way I see it, no one has broken any rules, but their is something funny going on in Goucher's selection. It looks like once they have their 24 qualified athletes, they can let two more in. Those 2 are subjective I'm guessing, but to not take the next two fastest should be explained. I can understand this however, say your top guy was injured all season, wasn't able to do the A time, but is in good form now, and ready to rock. But that is not the case here, kind of like why was it only Astana barred from the TDF??? No explination, they just did it and it stuck. No fairness is apparent in either decision, but it looks like they have the right to make it, unless I reading it wrong and it says explicity somewhere, that the next slots after 24 have to go to the next best times.
Probably best for all if they let in the other half dozen or so guys that have the standard, unless of course there is a max limit rule they would go over. Otherwise I think they have to stick to their inatial decision, and take the shit for it later. But it was all legal, and probably hold up in court later on....
jaylew
Jul 3, 08 12:12
Post #22 of 84 (2264 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [Uncle Phil]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
In Reply To
In Reply To
Rupp and Rohinsky running the 5K prelims with no intention of running the final is just wrong.
How is that just wrong? It happens in other sports...such as the swimming trials that ar also going on. If athletes aren't fast enough to make the prelims, then too bad. They should have run faster in the first place so they wouldn't be on the bubble.
But doesn't everybody who meets the qualifying standard get to race at the trials in swimming? They're not actually taking someone else's spot.
I agree with NYCTRi - that's lame.
monty
Jul 3, 08 12:22
Post #23 of 84 (2210 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [jaylew]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
But doesn't everybody who meets the qualifying standard get to race at the trials in swimming? They're not actually taking someone else's spot\\
That's correct, but I think it is time constraint in the long distance track events, and they allow for only so many heats. It gets very tough to have larger fields on the track, just like the max in swimming is the lanes avaiable. That is why in swimming, they have fewer heats in the distance events, too hard on the body to have to swim those events 3 times....
Tri N OC
Jul 3, 08 12:25
Post #24 of 84 (2187 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [monty]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
A modest proposal: They should just rename the subjective spots as sponsor picks. That would certainly piss people off big time, but as with IM sponsor slots, people would get over it.
mag900
Jul 3, 08 12:30
Post #25 of 84 (2159 views)
Re: Major political storm brewing at US Olympic Trials - Eugene [monty]
[
In reply to
]
Can't Post
it's easy to have large fields in the distance events and i have seen 10ks with 25/30 guys. you couldn't do that in the 800 or 1500 because they are going too fast and you would have a lot of spills but it would be very easy to have 2 heats of 18 in the 10k.
the time constraint issue is a non-factor. they just took 2 days off in the middle of the meet!
1
2
3
4
View All
Print Thread
The Pro Effect
Which male pro is most likely to influence your buying decisions
Al Sultan
Alexander
Andersson
DeBoom
Frodeno
Gomez
Kemper
Lieto
Lovato
McCormack
Other
Potts
Rapp
Reid
Sindballe
Stadler
Whitfield
MAIN
RULES &
LOG
