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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics

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linhardt

Jul 1, 08 6:04

Post #26 of 45 (1131 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [NGMN] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

I have to admit I haven't seen a Talon up close in a while but I know Kestrel tells us the Talon is 1:10 per 40k slower than the airfoil(which if true is not impressive), but they charge twice as much for airfoils as they do Talons so they have an interest in the numbers being different.

My Talon was destroyed by a car 2 seasons ago and I replaced it with an airfoil with almost the same components, but better wheels.

I have been slower on my Airfoil than the Talon on the bike portion of tris.

I don't know why as I am more fit and my training has been similar. My average speed on all non-race rides has averaged 0.6mph faster on the Airfoil.

That being said I am running much better off the bike so my overall times have come down in a lot of cases.

Both are good bikes, but the real problem is Kestrel itself, which squandered what it had and will need a miracle to become 10% the company it once was.

NGMN

Jul 1, 08 6:23

Post #27 of 45 (1107 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [gregX] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Now that the discussion has gone completely off course...

Cyclenut, of course I consulted your chart first. Thanks for time on that by the way.

Gregx, don't waste your time with Feather. These brakes are being released under all sorts of names, Detec, Soul Bikes, Kurve, and I have a feeling the price for TI(200 gram) and steel(220 grams) versions will settle between $200-$275 when all is said and done. Not everyone who wants to sell them has them yet. At $400 you are better off with KCNC, Negative Gs, or any other number of brakes.

Rapp, not everyone has to ride steep. I am imagining the Kestrels stack and reach to be pretty damn similar to Treks TTX or Plasmas both of which are fairly proven bikes.

JM3, my original intuition was that it was tested by Felt. In 2005 is when they set out on designing the new DA/B2. I seem to remember someone making a similar comment about Felt doing their testing and finding the Talon fast but couldn't find them. I didn't want to make those speculations originally but this thread has got sufficiently off track.

GregX

Jul 1, 08 6:26

Post #28 of 45 (1101 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [NGMN] [In reply to]	Can't Post

so these are Asian-made brakes?
any idea what the Asian company is that is making them or sourcing them? or do you have any more info about any of the other versions (soul bikes, etc.)?

"Half of what we taught you is wrong. Unfortunately, we do not know which half."
-- Dean and cardiologist C. S. Burwell to a Harvard Med School graduating class.
Where would you want to swim ?

Jon

Jul 1, 08 6:42

Post #29 of 45 (1085 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [Rappstar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I actually checked this out a few years ago, and noticed that Macca's bike splits were the same on his Talon as they were on the Airfoil. Plus, Macca dominated Olympic distance tris on a Talon in the early part of the decade before he switched to long course.

Also, how relevant is what Macca is doing to what an age-grouper is doing. I'm a decent age grouper, but I bet I don't approach Macca's average speed at any point in a race unless I am on a downhill. Is an age-grouper riding at 20mph going to get much of a benefit at 78 degrees versus 74 degrees? Are there any studies on this?

(This post was edited by Jon on Jul 1, 08 6:49)

TriBriGuy

Jul 1, 08 7:18

Post #30 of 45 (1033 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [Jon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"Is an age-grouper riding at 20mph going to get much of a benefit at 78 degrees versus 74 degrees"

Why in the heck would the speed you ride have anything to do with STA and fit in terms of cause and effect?

I'll never understand where people get these sorts of ideas.

********************
AmZof Lemming

trail

Jul 1, 08 7:32

Post #31 of 45 (1016 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [Jon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It's asinine even using Macca as an example for what other pros should do, much less AGs.

It ridiculous using an individual as any sort of justification of the benefits of a particular bike or geometry. Some people can hold great aero positions with road geometries. It's entirely possible that Macca could win Kona on a Talon. Some people even generate more power at lower STAs, which can compensate for slightly less aero position.

In general, though, tri geometries allow people to be more *comfortable* in aero positions. Therefore the Talon's role in triathlon is likely to serve a niche market for people who can tolerate the geometry and also want a hybrid road/tri bike, i.e. the role the Talon has always served, and very well.

Jon

Jul 1, 08 7:45

Post #32 of 45 (1006 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [TriBriGuy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have this idea because I thought aerodynamics mattered more at higher speeds. But I'm not an engineer or particularly good at science, which is why I ask questions so that someone who does know more than me will give me an intelligent answer that I can base decisions I make on. So please tell me where I went wrong.

(This post was edited by Jon on Jul 1, 08 12:39)

NGMN

Jul 1, 08 11:18

Post #33 of 45 (930 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [gregX] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Any talon owners want to take a set of calipers to their frame(seat tube, down tube, headtube, seatstays) just for kicks??

Sweeney

Jul 2, 08 17:01

Post #34 of 45 (805 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [NGMN] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'll try to get to that on Sunday. Right now everything is packed in the truck to the weekend and I forgot.

TriBriGuy

Jul 2, 08 17:22

Post #35 of 45 (793 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [Jon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Aerodynamics matter just as much to the "slower" rider as to the faster rider in terms of opportunity to save time.

That faster riders pay more attention to aerodynamics has NOTHING to do with the actual physics...but rather because top riders and triathletes' performances can be decided by mere seconds for major prizes.

********************
AmZof Lemming

madracus

Jul 4, 08 18:21

Post #36 of 45 (652 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [cerveloguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Everyone knows this but.... Macca's fastest bike split came in 2006 4:29:23... airfoil pro. His 2007 bike split was 4:37:32... (specialized) 30 seconds slower than in 2005 (talon). Kestrel bikes are great and fast, no question about that.

Lets wait and see what Macca does in Frankfurth and compare it to his Kestrel years... only we don't know the SA he was using back then... we can only guess it was around 76

So this weekend will also be a 76 vs 78 weekend! as if we did not have enough with the TDF, Silverstone, Wimbledone.... sht can I take the weekend off???

BMAN

Jul 4, 08 19:00

Post #37 of 45 (629 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [gregX] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Just buy the KCNC brakes. From everything that I have heard about both brakes the KCNC are lighter and less expensive and work very well. I have a pair and know they work very well but I have not used the Feather brakes but have only heard so so reports.
Aero & Light is Right Wink

Craigster

Jul 4, 08 20:14

Post #38 of 45 (575 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [Mike Prevost] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have posted this on a number of different occasions on various forums, and I agree with Mike on the fit of the Talon (although I think we disagree on the aesthetics). I too have had a Talon for 5 years now, it's a really nice road bike, but I am not a big fan of it as a tri bike - which is how I currently have it set up. However, you must be a discriminating rider I think, and know that you like to ride steep and low, before you would ever really knock the Talon as a tri bike. Because it has been set up like this, I just find it very uncomfortable, and yes, if I take it out the road with the seat binder in the forward hole with the seat slammed forward on the rails, it feels twitchy.

I have also ALWAYS noticed this "creaking" noise as I run over things (small cracks, etc. that typically wouldn't make a noise on something like my old 500 SCI). Granted, even when I'm trim at 180 pounds or so, I'm heavier than most of the waifish cyclists I ride with, but it just doesn't inspire confidence. So, because I got it at a great price, I couldn't beat it. Until I get back into shape to try and finally go after my 1 hour 40k (hopefully next year), I don't deserve a new bike :-)

With that said, I've known plenty who like it, it just really isn't for those who like to ride steep (you can probably find numerous posts from people stating the same thing here on ST and on other forums).

Now, about the graphics - I despise solid boring, unimaginative, and riskless design (probably because of my design background). I have simply NEVER been excited about their graphics packages (I'd rate Felt and the old GT graphics as some of the best in the business). Fuji on the other hand (can I say Kestrel's "sister" company?) has had some pretty good graphics at times. I hope the new incarnation of Kestrel will truly risk going beyond. I had a friend who had an older KM40 (from the mid 90's) and after he retired from racing, he stripped the frame, and had it custom painted. Now the aesthetics truly mimics the piece of art which that frame represents.

Craigster

Man looks in the abyss, there's nothing staring back at him. At that moment, man finds his character. And that is what keeps him out of the abyss.

NGMN

Jul 7, 08 16:18

Post #39 of 45 (464 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [Sweeney] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Any word?

Sweeney

Jul 7, 08 16:55

Post #40 of 45 (436 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [NGMN] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Here you go: (width)

head tube: 44mm

down tube: 35.5

seat tube: 26.5

seat stay: 14.6

Hope I measured those right.

gabbiev

Jul 7, 08 17:15

Post #41 of 45 (423 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [Sweeney] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Here you go: (width)

head tube: 44mm

down tube: 35.5

seat tube: 26.5

seat stay: 14.6

Hope I measured those right.

I have a P3C and a Talon. The Talon's numbers above are good; I would add that the Talon's downtube is 68mm high; seat stays are 34mm wide

P3C

Head tube: 32mm wide
Down tube: 80mm high, 29mm thick
Seat tube: 28mm thick
Seat stay: 29mm wide, 10mm thick

Biggest discrepencies between the two frames are head tube width and down tube height; wonder how significant the differences are real world. Obviously, the Cervelo has no gap between the seat tube and rear wheel; the Talon's measures out to be about the same as Look's.

I like both frames a lot--my biggest complaint with the Talon is that I need to use a drop stem to get low enough, due to its standard headset. 48cm Talon, 51cm P3C. In practice, I have the seat pushed forward on both bikes; I sit on the nose of the Talon more than I do on the Cervelo. I suspect that my practical seat angle while riding is pretty much the same. The Talon rides much stiffer than the Cervelo; both frames seem really quick, with same wheels, etc.

Jon

Jul 8, 08 8:41

Post #42 of 45 (346 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [gabbiev] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Are you faster on one bike over the other? Biking or running off the bike?

gabbiev

Jul 8, 08 11:16

Post #43 of 45 (294 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [Jon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I just do TTs, as I can't run. I believe that my performances are pretty close on either bike; FWIW, I'll average 27-30mph, depending on the course. The Cervelo does seem to give a less harsh ride. In terms of aerodynamics on the bike, my position is as close to identical on both; I can't find a significant difference between the two based on watts, etc. (using same wheels, aerobars, etc.) The Kestrel does handle much quicker, as more weight is on the front wheel. It's a great value for the dollar.

(This post was edited by gabbiev on Jul 8, 08 11:17)

chainpin

Jul 8, 08 11:24

Post #44 of 45 (283 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [cerveloguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"You've obviously got some pickle up your butt against Kestrel. The original poster was only talking about the Talon's aero credibility as a road/dual purpose bike compared to a Soloist. "

Hahhhaah, I don't know why but that is damn funny!!! I can't stop laughing, need to close my door! Thanks for that....LLLOLOL

"Capitalism is tough on the participants that get beat by it."
Crapola

Sweeney

Jul 8, 08 14:16

Post #45 of 45 (218 views)

Re: Kestrel Talon review, interesting comments re aerodynamics [NGMN] [In reply to]	Can't Post

One thing that everyone has to realize is that the link in the original post is to an advertisement for the Talon. The purpose is to sell the Talon, not to inform the triathlete public. Let's try not let the advertising hyperbole sweep us all away one more time. To often around here, people read advertising as gospel. There just isn't that much the bicycle frame can do for you, other than putting you in a good position above the wheels. Secondly, the Talon is a six or seven year old design. There should have been some advances in those years. If it sets up properly for you it's a great ride and it can be had for a bargain price. I work's perfectly for me. I like to be able to slide back on the seat and climb seated like a roadie. I think we are all fast going downhill, to me it's the uphills that tell the truth about the athlete.

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