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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh..

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phil combs

Nov 6, 09 5:53

Post #26 of 54 (751 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Did the same thing and was at the same place last winter. Started with 20 minute FTP on the Kurt Kinetic at approximately 230. After doing lots of 2x20s mid-Summer FTP was 290ish. So I would say your goal ought to be 300, not 250.

After taking 2 months "off" (due to a wreck) getting ready to start again. It's daunting.

Good Luck

Phil

devashish_paul

Nov 6, 09 5:55

Post #27 of 54 (751 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jaretj] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well I think 10W on say 250W is like 3.6 seconds on a 90 second 100m interval in the pool or 3.6 seconds on a 90 second 400m on a track. We know how huge that delta is. I understand that it is hard to hold the instantaenous power to within a few percent, but averaged over a 4 min interval I think you want to know if your last 4 min interval was 4% easier than your first 4 minute intervals if you're wanting to be precise about how your body is behaving under a given load.

I can tell you that there is a world of difference for me doing 1 hour at 235W vs 1 hour at 245W. Its not even in the same league of performance. Tom A has me all converted. I guess I was always that way about quarter splits on the track (fast tracks, slow tracks, short tracks, long tracks, tracks at altitude), now its just transferred over to cycling!

I agree a workout is a workout, but if you want to know if you are truly improving then your measurement device can't leave too much uncertainty.

If all you care about is the legs burning and the lungs being on fire, then no worries.

If you want to measure yourself against others, that's why we have races.

jaretj

Nov 6, 09 6:45

Post #28 of 54 (708 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [devashish_paul] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't think comparing to a pool times or track times to bike power is a good comparison.
You are comparing time/velocity to power so your 4% delta is not accurate.

Yes, there is a difference between 235 and 245 for an hour, I was not debating that. If it is close to your FTP then it's not in the same league as you said.

Jack is looking for a way to quantify his training by using the power curve from KK trainer. Short of actually purchasing a power meter, I feel it's a good choice over HR, Trainer speed or even PE even though it might be off as much as 4% which I have not experienced with my KK to any of my three PT's.

Yes, I think it's a way to burn the legs better than subjectively picking a speed to ride at.
I would also go so far as to say that if I saw a 15% increase on a trainer ride using the KK power curve that would be an indication that the training stress you are putting on yourself is increasing your fitness, but not any more than that.

I also agree that measuring yourself against others, or even yourself is what racing is for.

jaretj

2010 Races:
Triple T
Long Course Nationals
http://jaretj.blogspot.com

unclerock

Nov 6, 09 7:08

Post #29 of 54 (689 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I've been doing the same (kk + speedo). As others have said, 2x20 at least 1x/wk will get you steady improvements, maybe small some times, larger others. In hindsight, I wouldn't even worry about week-to-week improvements, more like month-2-month if you want to see something above the "noise" caused by differences in inflation pressure, roller pressure, temperature, recovery state, etc. between sessions.

I started out about the same as you (2x20 @ 240W) right after I bought the torture device in Jan, then made it to ~270W for 2x20 in Aug, before a spate of work travel and no SBR for several weeks. I wasn't too regular with the 2x20 btwn Jan-Aug, mostly due to travel

Andrew Coggan

Nov 6, 09 7:42

Post #30 of 54 (669 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jaretj] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Jack is looking for a way to quantify his training by using the power curve from KK trainer. Short of actually purchasing a power meter, I feel it's a good choice over HR, Trainer speed

Kurt Kinetic "power" = trainer speed.

jaretj

Nov 6, 09 8:18

Post #31 of 54 (625 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [Andrew Coggan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

That's a good point but the scale is different where the speed is linear and the power is not.

Yes, it would still be dependant on speed since that is ultimately where the signal is from. The difference between 18 and 19 mph is just 1 mph but the difference in power would have a different incremental value when riding between 18-19 or 22-23.

I suppose if you knew all of the approx powers for the speeds ridden one could just formulate a plan from that. That would just make the "Power Number" just a feel good number.

Going one step further I suppose you could just formulate a trainer plan from the speeds too and save the $20 but that wouldn't give people the joy of comparing "virtual power numbers" and give us something to argue about :)

jaretj

2010 Races:
Triple T
Long Course Nationals
http://jaretj.blogspot.com

jackmott

Nov 6, 09 8:22

Post #32 of 54 (617 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jaretj] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I need the $20 to get the speed!
i just set glance at the power curve chart to get a vauge notion of how much I suck

what was really fun was the trainer video im watching, has a group of people on trainers and a coach. Only ONE guy has a power meter, and he is this huge clydesdale ironman. During the 20 minute session every couple minutes the coach says "Where are you luther? oh 350watts! good job! 350 watts! holding 350 watts! nice! 370 watts!

F YOU LUTHER!!

In Reply To:

Going one step further I suppose you could just formulate a trainer plan from the speeds too and save the $20 but that wouldn't give people the joy of comparing "virtual power numbers" and give us something to argue about :)

jaretj

----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses: http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear: http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel - http://www.wheelbuilder.com Tire Crr Data - http://www.biketechreview.com

jaretj

Nov 6, 09 8:59

Post #33 of 54 (573 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I can see points both ways on this discussion, I think I'm biased toward the power from speed even though I have a PT. It has it's shortfalls but a change in the way people approach bike training may work for many.

BTW I could hold 350 watts for about 2 or 3 minutes and then would be trashed :P

jaretj

2010 Races:
Triple T
Long Course Nationals
http://jaretj.blogspot.com

jackmott

Nov 6, 09 9:02

Post #34 of 54 (568 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jaretj] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Id love to know what luthers average speed is for a 40kTT

his wattage was huge but so was he, so who knows

In Reply To:

BTW I could hold 350 watts for about 2 or 3 minutes and then would be trashed :P

jaretj

IRONwolf

Nov 6, 09 9:13

Post #35 of 54 (548 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

or how fast luther is going once he hits a good hill. That would probably be a better indicator that it isnt all about watts. its about watts to kg, I do 3x20s at 310 watts, but im also 6'4 and 180lbs, that luther guy was putting up from 350 to 380 watts, but he must weight 250lbs, he is huge. I guy like dev going 245watts at 5'2 and 120 lbs is going to be flying.

As it turns out, what you have is less important than what you do with it...
-Bernd Heinrich, why we run

trvfsub2

Nov 6, 09 9:25

Post #36 of 54 (529 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

you suck compared to those here, you should just quit and sell it...........what a sucky post! haahha

jackmott

Nov 6, 09 9:27

Post #37 of 54 (526 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [trvfsub2] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

you suck compared to those here, you should just quit and sell it...........what a sucky post! haahha

yes

great shame
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses: http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear: http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel - http://www.wheelbuilder.com Tire Crr Data - http://www.biketechreview.com

phil combs

Nov 6, 09 9:59

Post #38 of 54 (488 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

This has to be the same Luther guy that everyone was abuzz about after Eagleman. Someone posted about seeing him, after a while he responded with an interesting post. As the story unfolded he listed his stats (his user name was Team Maniac) and his 40k TT time was just ridiculous, something like 51 or 52 minutes. I remember thinking: this guy is a different species.

The interesting thing about that thread to me was that some people wanted to discount his ability by saying he's huge, that kind of wattage is nothing when you are huge, blah, blah. My thought was they were ignoring the results of his 40k TT which was just scorching.

offroadtri

Nov 6, 09 10:02

Post #39 of 54 (486 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [IRONwolf] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yeah!!!!!!! Someone gets it.
Watts/kg
Pure watts mean nothing, from a comparative value. Also watts/kg are different on a TT bike vs a road bike. If you can roll 4 w/kg for a 70.3 race, and are at least semi aero, you are going to be rolling. Olympic 4.8 is probably top 5 split of the day, for amateurs.

SlayerHatebreed

Nov 6, 09 10:37

Post #40 of 54 (462 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

For someone who is throwing down a 50? min 10k run I think it's silly to worry about bike wattage numbers.

Prob coming across like an a-hole but whatcanyoudo? Run, run, run and spend less time here analyzing, debating the coefficient ot the tangent of a reciprocal.

Dave Luscan

Nov 6, 09 10:45

Post #41 of 54 (449 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [mhebe] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Yeah!!!!!!! Someone gets it.
Watts/kg
Pure watts mean nothing, from a comparative value. Also watts/kg are different on a TT bike vs a road bike. If you can roll 3.5 w/kg for a 70.3 race, and are at least semi aero, you are going to be rolling. Olympic 4.8 is probably top 5 split of the day, for PROS.

Fixed that for you...

Supakage

Nov 6, 09 11:22

Post #42 of 54 (427 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [Dave Luscan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

What intensity should one be doing these 20min intervals at? 1hr power (FTP), 20min power?

jackmott

Nov 6, 09 11:55

Post #43 of 54 (408 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [SlayerHatebreed] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have thrown down better 10k runs than that, the 50ish minute one was on no run training at all. I've had knee problems since the houston marathon preventing me from running.
:(

but absolutely, running is the most important

In Reply To:

jackmott

Nov 6, 09 11:57

Post #44 of 54 (404 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [pcombs22] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yeah, i mean hell to do an ironman at that size he has some serious talent and work ethic.

dunno about the eating ethic but he may prefer to be a big strong dude

maybe he should do MMA, finally a heavyweight who doesn't gas at the end of round 1

In Reply To:

offroadtri

Nov 6, 09 12:00

Post #45 of 54 (398 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [Supakage] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sweet Spot 90-93% of FTP 20 min on, 5-10 off x2, depending on time of season.
Yes, 4.5 w/kg is more like top amateur for Olympic distance. I buggered my numbers.
Actually training w/ watts is probably best for someone who may be just starting out, and wants to get serious. People WAAAAY overshoot watts for an easy day. It is hard to train in proper zones to increase performance. If I say go ride Tempo for one hour today, someone will have a very hard time comprehending that, and hitting the effort. If I say ride one hour at 85% FTP then you have a quantifiable effort.
No, heart rate is not a good gauge. Heat, prior training, caffeine, stress, headwind, tailwind, any other confounders?
These vacation days hanging in tri chat rooms and listing Ebay goodies are kind of fun.

devashish_paul

Nov 6, 09 13:05

Post #46 of 54 (365 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [IRONwolf] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I believe when he hit IMC, Luther was down at 220 lbs, so 100kg. So 350W for Luther is 3.5W per Kg. If I was down at 120, I'd be putting out 4W per kg for a half Ironman but my last few half's were 3.7-3.8 range (I'm actually 62 kg now), and I backed those up with 1;26-1:33 half marathons (I don't know if 1:33 can be called "backed up", but no blowup either). Anyway, my last few 1 hour hard CT rides were only in the same range (230-240W over an hour), so basically not much diff than my half IM pace...then again, you can do a lot more, tapered and in a race environment. I'll share the numbers 8 days from now from Clearwater.

www.kestrelbicycles.com |www.infinitnutrition.ca | www.nineteenwetsuits.com
Free camps: Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 10/11 2010

jackmott

Nov 6, 09 13:12

Post #47 of 54 (355 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [devashish_paul] [In reply to]	Can't Post

enough talk

im eating cake and guiness beer until I am big enough to put out 350 watts NO BIG DEAL
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses: http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear: http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel - http://www.wheelbuilder.com Tire Crr Data - http://www.biketechreview.com

jackmott

Nov 10, 09 16:46

Post #48 of 54 (271 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

did the same exact protocol today

255.7 watts!

woo
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses: http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear: http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel - http://www.wheelbuilder.com Tire Crr Data - http://www.biketechreview.com

hgrong

Nov 10, 09 16:50

Post #49 of 54 (265 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

did the same exact protocol today

255.7 watts!

woo

Same speedo I hope. You know how that can affect drag.

jackmott

Nov 10, 09 16:59

Post #50 of 54 (254 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [hgrong] [In reply to]	Can't Post

yeah had my speedo and aero helmet on
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses: http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear: http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel - http://www.wheelbuilder.com Tire Crr Data - http://www.biketechreview.com

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