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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh..

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jackmott

Nov 5, 09 17:16

Post #1 of 54 (1859 views)

Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh..	Can't Post

I don't know whether to be distressed with how weak I am, or encouraged by how aerodynamic I must be...

232.5 watts for 20 minutes, as measured by a speedo and a kurt kinetic road machine.

will be interesting to track this over the winter.

how high should I aim, 250 by next summer? 300? =)
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses: http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear: http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel - http://www.wheelbuilder.com Tire Crr Data - http://www.biketechreview.com

hgrong

Nov 5, 09 17:21

Post #2 of 54 (1850 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Jack, I don't know what Tom A. and Dr. Coggan have been telling you, but wearing a speedo on the trainer does not constitute training with power.

jackmott

Nov 5, 09 17:24

Post #3 of 54 (1837 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [hgrong] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Jack, I don't know what Tom A. and Dr. Coggan have been telling you, but wearing a speedo on the trainer does not constitute training with power.

science...DAMNIT!!
----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses: http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear: http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel - http://www.wheelbuilder.com Tire Crr Data - http://www.biketechreview.com

jaretj

Nov 5, 09 17:27

Post #4 of 54 (1821 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I found that the power/speed curve from KK was very close to what my PT read.

Working up to 40 minutes of FTP intervals would be a good goal.

3X6, 3X8, 3X10, 2X15, 2X20

Retest after a month to see how you are doing.

jaretj

2010 Races:
Triple T
Long Course Nationals
http://jaretj.blogspot.com

jackmott

Nov 5, 09 17:29

Post #5 of 54 (1816 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jaretj] [In reply to]	Can't Post

what tire/pressure were you using when it matched the PT?

and how did you gauge how tight to put the roller on there?

In Reply To:

----
What is good in life? - To crush your enemie's dreams, see them dropped behind you, and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Sunglasses: http://www.framesdirect.com/sunglasses
Tri Gear: http://www.atctrishop.com
Cheap Disc Wheel - http://www.wheelbuilder.com Tire Crr Data - http://www.biketechreview.com

hgrong

Nov 5, 09 17:33

Post #6 of 54 (1802 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

what tire/pressure were you using when it matched the PT?

and how did you gauge how tight to put the roller on there?

I was actually wondering this as well.

I was trying to use the KK "power chart" to guestimate power (I don't have a speedo to make it all scientific) but it seemed like it was really dependent on how hard I tightened the roller. And the requisite tension to prevent slippage seemed to change from week to week, and defineately from tire to tire.

Tom A.

Nov 5, 09 17:34

Post #7 of 54 (1795 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

No "power meter" should be put into use unless it's calibration has been checked first...IMHO ;-)

jackmott

Nov 5, 09 17:38

Post #8 of 54 (1779 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't anticipate I can use it to compare myself to others

but if I take care to use the same roller tension, tire, and tire pressure

I should be able to use it to gauge progress and effort in a relative sense.

In Reply To:

No "power meter" should be put into use unless it's calibration has been checked first...IMHO ;-)

jaretj

Nov 5, 09 17:44

Post #9 of 54 (1762 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

100 psig

4.5 turns all of the time...enough to keep it from squeeling
Make sure you lube the threads on the adjustment knob

jaretj

2010 Races:
Triple T
Long Course Nationals
http://jaretj.blogspot.com

TriDevilDog

Nov 5, 09 17:46

Post #10 of 54 (1757 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I am not an expert...no books to my credit, but I've trained with Power for about 3 years now and have some anecdotal evidence.

I made some pretty good gains in FTP in the first 3 months, I think just learning how to take the test and using the PM
to more effectively meter my efforts. In my opinion, that is the greatest benefit of a PM and why I wish I had bought a race quality
wheel instead of the 32 spoke, iron-rim flywheel I did buy.

That got me to around an FTP of 250...depending on the time of year it might vary 20 watts. In early spring after
a winter of skiing and running with a bit of trainer time it might go down to 230, by August after a season of training and racing hard
it might be 270.

So you can probably get north of 250, I would guess you would have to dedicate yourself to a serious winter of pain to
get to 300... that would be about the limit IMHO.

I've also found that using a CycleOps trainer (Powerbeam?) in some classes, my power readings are about 25% higher. I would
ride with my (recently factory calibrated) PowerTap in the trainer with it's meter showing 250, the PowerBeam readout would
swear it was 320.

.
"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards." ~~ Vernon Saunders Law

hgrong

Nov 5, 09 17:46

Post #11 of 54 (1757 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jaretj] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

100 psig

4.5 turns all of the time...enough to keep it from squeeling
Make sure you lube the threads on the adjustment knob

jaretj

Yeah, discovered that one the hard way.

Tom A.

Nov 5, 09 17:47

Post #12 of 54 (1753 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

I don't anticipate I can use it to compare myself to others

That's not the point...

jackmott

Nov 5, 09 17:50

Post #13 of 54 (1737 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

what IS the point?

In Reply To:

I don't anticipate I can use it to compare myself to others

That's not the point...

prattzc

Nov 5, 09 18:10

Post #14 of 54 (1689 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm on a Computrainer and going thru the same deal. I think I was around the same threshold. I just finished my second session of the week at 3 x 260 watts for 7 minutes each with 3 minutes inbetween.

I'm shooting for 300 watts by February. My first race of 2010 is IMCA 70.3 and I want to be off the bike at 2:20 and still have some legs left to run.

I think we can do 300 watts as a goal, but it will hurt this winter.
http://zachpratt.wordpress.com/

Mike Prevost

Nov 5, 09 18:16

Post #15 of 54 (1675 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

what IS the point?

In Reply To:

I don't anticipate I can use it to compare myself to others

That's not the point...

I would imagine it is to compare yourself to yourself.
www.endurancenation.us

IRONwolf

Nov 5, 09 18:18

Post #16 of 54 (1669 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I thought you were already at 300 watts.....

As it turns out, what you have is less important than what you do with it...
-Bernd Heinrich, why we run

Supakage

Nov 5, 09 20:00

Post #17 of 54 (1548 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [IRONwolf] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

I thought you were already at 300 watts.....

Wait, I thought that when you register for the ST forums, it only allows you in if you have an FTP of 300 watts?

Tom A.

Nov 5, 09 20:03

Post #18 of 54 (1544 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

what IS the point?

In Reply To:

I don't anticipate I can use it to compare myself to others

That's not the point...

To be able to compare to yourself over time regardless of the tire pressure, press on force, the actual tire itself, etc...and to also be able to keep those measurements in context when you eventually get a different power meter in the future, along with the ability to use the values to more accurately measure and model actual "demands"...

edit: I know Mr. Chung has a funny analogy about this...I just can't remember it right now... ;-)

(This post was edited by Tom A. on Nov 5, 09 20:04)

jackmott

Nov 5, 09 20:59

Post #19 of 54 (1474 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Right so what you are saying is that my method of measuring power is less flexible and accurate at $20 than a powertap would be at $1000

I'm well aware of that.

Regardless, I will be able to compare myself, to myself, this winter, without too much difficulty. It is, better than nothing =)

In Reply To:

jackmott

Nov 5, 09 21:01

Post #20 of 54 (1472 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [IRONwolf] [In reply to]	Can't Post

if I was at 300 watts why would I be so desperate to buy your aero weenie tires that you have ignored my PM about?

In Reply To:

I thought you were already at 300 watts.....

jaretj

Nov 6, 09 3:58

Post #21 of 54 (1362 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [hgrong] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yeah, so did I :P

I have to say KK was quick to send a replacement.

jaretj

2010 Races:
Triple T
Long Course Nationals
http://jaretj.blogspot.com

devashish_paul

Nov 6, 09 5:09

Post #22 of 54 (1304 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The problem with your method as Tom A previously pointed out to me is that the press on force actually changes in a non deterministic manner as your tire heats up. This can result in a change of several watts "within" the workout. Imagine a pool that starts off at 25 meters, but somewhere through your workout it changes to 23 and then 22, or maybe it stops at 23.15 but next workout it shrinks to 21.90. Your splits are all over the place, but what is clear (from the split times) is that you are getting studlier. I've had 1 hour workouts on my CT where my CT wattage is generally 5 W lower than the SRM at the start (say 245 vs 250), yet for the same 250 SRM Watts, the CT reads 255W.

So as a bare minimum, use a trainer tire and try to keep it somewhat cool with a fan blowing directly on it so you don't have any "within workout drift", cause you want to know if your pool is still 25 m or if it has shrunk to 22.1 m :-)

www.kestrelbicycles.com |www.infinitnutrition.ca | www.nineteenwetsuits.com
Free camps: Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 10/11 2010

Yknot

Nov 6, 09 5:18

Post #23 of 54 (1287 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [devashish_paul] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

...you want to know if your pool is still 25 m or if it has shrunk to 22.1 m :-)

Is it only the guys who have to worry about shrinkage, or is this something the ladies should be concerned with as well?

More serious, I was going to be using the KK power computer, does a trainer specific tire really make a noticeable difference in the accuracy (within a workout and between workouts)?

jaretj

Nov 6, 09 5:39

Post #24 of 54 (1250 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [devashish_paul] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I really don't think that 5 to 10 watts is going to make a difference when he is hammering out intervals at 220 to 250 watts on an indoor trainer. We all know that it's difficult to hold power that close anyway.

Using other indicators of intensity will show if the power required is changing. I agree it's not the best way to train with power but if we are aware of what the inconsistancies can be, we can allow for them.

If he consistantly shows a higher or lower power at the end of his intervals, he will then know how to adjust. Again, not ideal but for $20 it would be worth a try.

jaretj

2010 Races:
Triple T
Long Course Nationals
http://jaretj.blogspot.com

ericM35-39

Nov 6, 09 5:52

Post #25 of 54 (1218 views)

Re: Just trained with power (sorta) for the first time..ugh.. [jackmott] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jack, that's exactly it right there, you're on the right track. Just use those numbers for yourself. Who cares if it's 230 or 830.

My experience with starting up with power... of course I was very competitive with myself so I tried to go as hard as possible. A very good cyclist told me to dial it back some, that I was actually doing VO2 Max reps, and that I should focus on sub-threshold reps at first if I wanted to build my FTP. I started doing this and the improvements starting coming fast and furious. I tested monthly, and HONEST test at a certain HR, breathing, and PE level that was repeatable from month to month.

Somebody above said it, but start with something easy, 2x2 or whatever you can handle at X watts and work your way up to a weekly 2x20 at X watts. This should take weeks and weeks to build up to, but by doing this you are applying some of the training principles we always talk about on here but never really do if we're impatient.... progressive overload, consistency, etc. As you test monthly, recalibrate X and then start again so to speak... not back down to 2x2 but don't expect to hold your new FTP during a 2x20 as easily as you did before.

I have been doing intervals 4 times per week... 1 hr to 1.5 hrs on T and TH, and then structured intervals within my long ride on Saturday and my semi long ride on Sunday. Of course, only on the trainer on T and TH.

It's amazing how well this method works... I started out at 2x4 or whatever at X power 12 weeks ago (based on my FTP estimate) and now I'm sitting in at 2 hrs of hard tempo at that same X wattage as I tune up for one more race. I definitely could not do that 12 weeks ago.

FWIW, I've seen 5% improvements per month these last few months.

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