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Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it!
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Dave Luscan
Oct 29, 09 2:47
Post #1 of 117 (3440 views)
Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it!
Can't Post
Going to pursue making this vision a reality. And I'm going to do it right. Plan on using A2 tunnel in NC sometime early next year. Sourcing of the bikes will likely be the biggest obstacle to this.
So this thread is #1 for that, bike donors. I will pay for the tunnel time, professional and fast shipping back and forth, professional mechanic to assemble and dis-assemble and the testing will be done with proper protocols. (Same wheels, same aerobar set-up when not proprietary, close or exact frame sizes in all models when normalized for stack and reach, cables will be addressed, pedal position, set-up, etc).
#2 thing this thread is for is to get some input about what exactly YOU want to see. I will be doing full yaw sweeps on everything, in and out, out and in, probably out to 20 degrees. Wheels will be disc rear, Zipp or Hed or maybe both, front will be deep, 1080 or Jet 9 or maybe both.
Bikes to be tested:
1. P2C, P3C, P4
(got the P2 and 3, looing for a 4)
2. Trinity Advanced SL -
got it
3. Specialized Shiv
4. Trek Speed Concept
5. Kestrel 4000
maybe
6. QR CD 0.1
7. Felt DA
8. Spec Transition
9. Plasma 2 and 3
10. Cannondale Slice got it
11. Fuji D6
12. Jamis Xenith T1
13. Ceepo Venom
14. Trek TTX
maybe
15. Orbea Ordu
16. New Guru?
17. Typical round tubed roadie with clips
18. Zipp 2001
19. New Titanflex Stretch
20. Look 596
Yes, an ambitious list for sure, this is why I need your help. Not sure how many if any manufacturers would be interested in donating bikes to this venture. If you have one of these bikes in somewhere around the 54-56 size and want to help make this happen please PM me or email
david@endorphinfitness.com
.
Results will be comprehensive and for sale after this test. Bike donors to recieve free copies of course as well as free copies of any future test I do. I have in mind to test aero helemts in the same manner. All currently available helmets on an upper body mannequin and alone, tested flat as well as tail up through a full yaw sweep.
I have access to a bunch of these bikes already but some are harder to get hands on than others of course. Really looking for a Shiv, new Trek as they will be the toughest to get and I won't be doing this test with any glaring omissions. Ok if I can't find a Plasma 2, I still go ahead, but not having a Shiv or another major and recent entry into this field will really squash the excitement I think this testing will create. And yes, this is a commercial venture but really I just want to know and be able to cover the costs of finding out. Probably looking at a 10k investment on my part to get this done. This is my project and not affiliated with the company I work for, if that matters.
Let me know if you want to help. Thanks for looking.
Dave Luscan
www.endorphinfitness.com
(This post was
edited
by Dave Luscan on Oct 29, 09 10:40)
zebragonzo
Oct 29, 09 3:04
Post #2 of 117 (3433 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan]
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You'd get lots of interest from the UK if you included the planet X frame which is VERY popular over here. It also goes under a lot of other names, but looks like this:
sub-3-dad
Oct 29, 09 3:26
Post #3 of 117 (3423 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan]
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"...
Results will be comprehensive and for sale after this test..."
...shortly after which they will be available for free on every tri and TT related forum etc..."
I don't see you making money on this one!
#######
My Blog
Andrew69
Oct 29, 09 3:58
Post #4 of 117 (3409 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [sub-3-dad]
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So why not sell the results beforehand to help pay for it all?
Id be in for a resonable fee....
zebragonzo
Oct 29, 09 4:11
Post #5 of 117 (3395 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [sub-3-dad]
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Sell it to a magazine?
Dave Luscan
Oct 29, 09 4:29
Post #6 of 117 (3381 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [zebragonzo]
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As far as the making money part of it, I am pretty sure I can cover the costs of this with sales of the results. If I make a profit, great....I'll run some more tests with helmets, aero cranks, hydration options etc.
As to how to sell it so that it doesn't appear on every bulletin board, chat room and website within 24 hours...well there are ways to do this. If this project comes to fruition, rest assured I will not be "winging it" in regards to tunnel protocols OR the best way to protect the results. Tunnel experts and legal experts will both be in the mix from Day 1. Which I guess is today.
I forgot to mention, significant ST discounts will apply.
jfanny88
Oct 29, 09 5:49
Post #7 of 117 (3307 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan]
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Thanks for taking the initiative for getting this going!
I don't have any bikes in those sizes that I can lend, but if you're doing pre-orders for the results to help funding, I'd definitely be interested.
Hope this works out..
psycholist
Oct 29, 09 6:04
Post #8 of 117 (3281 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Andrew69]
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Dave,
I like Andrew69's suggestion. I'd become a "subscriber" or "sponsor" up front in exchange for the results. Of course, it puts a bit more pressure on you to see it through, but it would get you some operating capital.
.
Bob C.
“The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money” –Margaret Thatcher
desert dude
Oct 29, 09 6:37
Post #9 of 117 (3237 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan]
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I think someone proposed something like this before recently. They mentioned people chipping in. I'm in for $29.52 up front once you know it's going to happen.
Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
,
Blog
Save at TriSports.com - use code BSTOV-S when placing your order
That Guy
Oct 29, 09 6:38
Post #10 of 117 (3235 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan]
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great idea! How about going one step further--you'll be testing all the flagship, why not test all the entry level bikes from the same manufacturers. It would be interesting to see a comparison. Also, how about adding Kuota?
______________________________________
Nothing to see here people, just move along.
desert dude
Oct 29, 09 6:43
Post #11 of 117 (3224 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [That Guy]
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the kuota has already been proven to be a brick. Why test what we know is already a third tier frame?
Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
,
Blog
Save at TriSports.com - use code BSTOV-S when placing your order
That Guy
Oct 29, 09 7:00
Post #12 of 117 (3192 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [desert dude]
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For purely selfish reasons, I ride one of those bricks--and yes, it's the entry level brick.
______________________________________
Nothing to see here people, just move along.
Flanagan
Oct 29, 09 7:56
Post #13 of 117 (3140 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan]
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Are you borrowing the bikes, or do you get to keep them? If they are truly "donated to science", then you *might* be able to cover costs by selling the inventory of bikes after testing. I also think the best market is to sell the data to individual bike shops. Make the data proprietary and something which can't be shared, so each shop has to purchase/license/subscribe. Shops which carry the "best" bikes could then further justify a premium for the "best"/"fastest" bikes, and they would have the data to back it up. So that is how I see the $$$ side of it.
I wouldn't consider purchasing data of either the bike alone or of you on the bike. Although, on second though, it might prove useful for me to calculate how many watts I need against you at the VA State TT Champs next year, at least if you are the rider ;-) Sure, I'm good for $20 in order to know your drag information, and I only want the data from one bike!
jvinciqu
Oct 29, 09 8:01
Post #14 of 117 (3131 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan]
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Do you have any wind tunnel testing experience? Any aerodynamics expertise?
I would think you could get fairly far with this if you had a comprehensive test protocol and data reduction proposal prior to going to test. Personally, I would write a proposal detailing these items - and the intended data set you plan to present "for sale" - to solicit greater participation.
--
Think Fast Multisport, LLC
Intelligent Coaching for Endurance Athletes
http://www.thinkfastmultisport.com
clyde_s_dale
Oct 29, 09 8:10
Post #15 of 117 (3112 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan]
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Old school fast frames? Zipp and softride?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Cartels: Serotta, Zipp 2001, Guru, eh?
-"It was kinda long and then i got really tired"
desert dude
Oct 29, 09 8:15
Post #16 of 117 (3100 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Flanagan]
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Sure, I'm good for $20 in order to know your drag information, and I only want the data from one bike!
In Reply To:
Cheap, selfish bastard!
Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
,
Blog
Save at TriSports.com - use code BSTOV-S when placing your order
zebragonzo
Oct 29, 09 8:17
Post #17 of 117 (3097 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan]
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One other thought; how are you going to get all the bikes set up the same if you're borrowing them? Presumabley it will mean steerers sticking out as you can't cut them to length.
AdrenalineTRI
Oct 29, 09 8:20
Post #18 of 117 (3085 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [zebragonzo]
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no mag (no american mag aside from consumer reports) would purchase the results. us tri mags are a monopoly and are biased towards those that purchase advertising space in them
------------------------------------------------------------
Adrenaline TriSport | Boulder, Colorado
Close Out Sales
Your Front Range source for Felt, Argon18 and Blue Bikes
| TYR | DeSoto | Skirt | Rocket Science Sports | Speedo | Spiuk | Zipp | Mizuno | Brooks | Zeal | Aquasphere |
596
Oct 29, 09 8:23
Post #19 of 117 (3074 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan]
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I'd like to see you add a Look 596 to your test. Yes?
Paul
http://casasedona.com
AAA 4-Diamond Bed and breakfast Inn
As seen on the "Travel Channel"
2008 "1,000 Places to See Before You Die"
desert dude
Oct 29, 09 8:30
Post #20 of 117 (3057 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [596]
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add a Look 596 to your test.
In Reply To:
X2!
Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
,
Blog
Save at TriSports.com - use code BSTOV-S when placing your order
Frank Day
Oct 29, 09 8:35
Post #21 of 117 (3041 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Dave Luscan]
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In Reply To:
I have in mind to test aero helemts in the same manner. All currently available helmets on an upper body mannequin and alone, tested flat as well as tail up through a full yaw sweep.
Ambitious project. You should also test with the head turned to the side.
Frank, Inventor of PowerCranks
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
To be a top ten finisher in the Ironman World Championships with a time of 16:30 or so is easy. . . as long as do the first one.
Andrew V
Oct 29, 09 8:51
Post #22 of 117 (3020 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [zebragonzo]
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In Reply To:
One other thought; how are you going to get all the bikes set up the same if you're borrowing them? Presumabley it will mean steerers sticking out as you can't cut them to length.
That's a good point, easily overlooked. I wonder if it would be 'best' to have a spacer stack and some clay, and normalize it to ~3 CM of spacers above the stem. Not optimal, but better than having inconsistencies. Those aero spacers aren't particularly expensive, and would lower the effect a bit.
zebragonzo
Oct 29, 09 8:53
Post #23 of 117 (3013 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Andrew V]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
One other thought; how are you going to get all the bikes set up the same if you're borrowing them? Presumabley it will mean steerers sticking out as you can't cut them to length.
That's a good point, easily overlooked. I wonder if it would be 'best' to have a spacer stack and some clay, and normalize it to ~3 CM of spacers above the stem. Not optimal, but better than having inconsistencies. Those aero spacers aren't particularly expensive, and would lower the effect a bit.
Personally, I'd only be happy seeing that sort of set-up on a bike that was originally designed to have spacers. The Shiv has deliberately put the top of the stem level with the top of the top tube.
Andrew V
Oct 29, 09 8:57
Post #24 of 117 (3000 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [zebragonzo]
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Good point. Perhaps it would be wise to test 1 bike (that uses spacers) with and without them on top, and get a rough conversion factor, which can then be applied. Either way, aero spacers should be used.
It'd difficult to properly test that area - it's very dirty air if you use a front bottle and with arms, but very clean on a solo bike. I know that, in general, bike alone is a good stand-in for bike+person, but in that area, I'm not so sure.
zebragonzo
Oct 29, 09 9:01
Post #25 of 117 (2992 views)
Re: Independent Wind Tunnel Testing....ok I'll do it! [Andrew V]
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In Reply To:
Good point. Perhaps it would be wise to test 1 bike (that uses spacers) with and without them on top, and get a rough conversion factor, which can then be applied. Either way, aero spacers should be used.
It'd difficult to properly test that area - it's very dirty air if you use a front bottle and with arms, but very clean on a solo bike. I know that, in general, bike alone is a good stand-in for bike+person, but in that area, I'm not so sure.
You can calculate what the effect of a given height of cylinders would be when placed in the free stream. As you say though; that'll change if you put stuff in to disrupt it.
I'm assuming that the tunnel testing will be done without a rider as I doubt there are many riders who could hold a single position on different bikes over the time it would take.
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