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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught?

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ggeiger

Nov 25, 08 10:47

Post #151 of 172 (683 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [h2ofun] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'll just bite my tongue......why do I waste my time.....

NOT sponsored by Myathletetracker.com

phil combs

Nov 25, 08 10:51

Post #152 of 172 (678 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [h2ofun] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I did a draft legal triathlon this summer. You're right, no one died during the bike race. But I think my point is still valid--would you want me riding on your wheel during a race? I don't think so + plus I'm probably not fast enough to do it anyway ;)

On the way to this race I was asking my friend, who is a roadie, about drafting. His comment was that he would be scared shitless to draft with a bunch of triathletes for 25 miles which I thought was pretty funny but probably sensible.

Millco

Nov 25, 08 11:00

Post #153 of 172 (673 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Old and Haggard] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"IIRC, there were some serious injuries in the inaugural Clearwater 70.3 on the bike due to mass pile-ups"

You are correct, I was there on the side of the road when the EMT arrived.

Martin C

Nov 25, 08 11:02

Post #154 of 172 (669 views)

Post deleted by Administrator [In reply to]

Thomas Magnum

Nov 25, 08 11:24

Post #155 of 172 (651 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I was actually RIGHT THERE on my bike and heard you tell the group to break it up. Thanks! (PLEASE NOTE: at least a couple of us in that video were getting passed by the pelaton).

That pack of riders rode together like it was the TDF for much of the second loop. For a while I let them spoil my IM experience. I became so angry at them that I started riding WAY too hard (my HR for the way out on the second loop was by far my highest of the day). I was cranking hard at my HR ceiling into the wind and 50-100 meters up the road I could see someone in the back of the pack sitting up and soft pedaling along going faster than I was riding.

In addition to being angry at the pack of cheaters I started cursing NA sports. Where were the referees? How much would it cost to add enough referees to prevent this? Then finally a referee came by on his motorcycle and rode behind them for a while, then rode next to them. YES! I was sure that the penalty tent would be full! After all, some of them were riding next to each other. But then I passed the penalty tent after the turnaround and it was empty! I think the ref just rode next to them and broke them up. He might have been pretty successful at breaking the pack up because I didn�t notice any big packs coming by after the turnaround. But still�is this what you get for cheating? Just a request to break it up?

NA sports needs more referees (how much would it cost to train and add 15 referees and motorcycles?) And the referees need to get some balls.

h2ofun

Nov 25, 08 11:28

Post #156 of 172 (640 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Thomas Magnum] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Have you been to a NAS pre race meeting? Rules implementation between USAT and NAS are different. Under USAT, no warnings, just give a penalty. Under NAS, they try to warn. I am not saying which is better, just that they are different.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell

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wimaboju

Nov 25, 08 11:39

Post #157 of 172 (622 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [clinty] [In reply to]	Can't Post

That's retarded. If you don't want to draft in a race you don't have to. If you watched that pack close enough, you can see who is and who is not riding clean. It's not rocket science. Maybe if people were worried that they would end up on ANY website, not just ST, they might think twice about cheating.
The best pace is a suicide pace, and today looks like a good day to die.-Pre

geekedout

Nov 25, 08 11:52

Post #158 of 172 (604 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Martin C] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote:

Again, Dave has never done an Ironman. Dave has never been to, an Ironman. So his knowledge on these matters is....

....well?

...similar to his knowledge, or lack thereof, on lots of other things he likes to opine about?

bluemonkeytri

Nov 25, 08 12:15

Post #159 of 172 (590 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [gbot] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Are you responding to my post?

www.momslasagna.org, because Every Bite Saves a Life.

bluemonkeytri

Nov 25, 08 12:25

Post #160 of 172 (574 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [clinty] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think it has as much to do with safety and ability to police than anything else.

Unless the pacing on the run is done with someone from the outside, how is pacing off someone else in the race cheating? If I stay 100 m back of someone, on bike or run, and stay at their pace, how is that not working independently? Isn't it the same essentially as maintaining a speed based on a computer or Garmin or whatever? You are still battling the elements in the same manner as the person in front of you.

www.momslasagna.org, because Every Bite Saves a Life.

nfreeman

Nov 25, 08 14:44

Post #161 of 172 (528 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [clayton1] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Im in the video too- im #356, visible at 0:13 in the video (guy with white shirt, but not with trispokes, next to the other white shirt guy)
a couple of thoughts:

a) note im riding in the front of that pack, and to the side- i was slowly passing the entire pack
b) this video was taken at the end of the first loop, at mile 36. i got to T2 at about 6:05 race time, which means that the older guys and the faster running younger guys were in kona contention in this area of the race. This is almost exactly where the pro women were on the course- they got out of the water at around 6 hours (and had a 10 min head start at the swim)
c) i actually view this as a success story- about 5 minutes later a ref (who looked JUST like macca i kid you not) arrived and gave about 5 drafting penatlies out, and this group evaporated
d) in the entire bike this was actually the biggest group i saw, this is NOTHING compared to clearwater, or cancun, or other draftalicious races ive seen
e) in clearwater, etc the packs got BIGGER with time. at this race, they got smaller as the race progressed
f) one thing to note- the refs were reffing the beeline portion of the race, but i dont think they were reffing the twisty bits by the U-turn where this video was taken- not a safe place for morotcycles i think. I saw packs near the turn, but very few up on beeline where the refs were hot and heavy
g) i actually thought this was teh heaviest reffed race id ever seen- i think in hindsight my vision of the ref count may be flavored by the fact that i think i was riding near the top pro women without realizing it (and that may be why the refs were there)

--------------------------
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twolouis

Nov 25, 08 14:47

Post #162 of 172 (524 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [TXTrey] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

I can't believe that Paul, 1152, was apparently cheating. I was out there volunteering on the swim, and followed Paul in the last 1/2 mile or so. He actually got out of the water into a boat and was planning to quit. I later saw him come in on the bike, and ran with him for a second on his second lap. He said it took him 30 miles to 'unfreeze'. He had on a sleeveless wetsuit. I wonder if he was actually cheating?

Regardless, by the looks of that third bike split whether or not he was "actually" cheating or just wanting to end it or cut is short, it was a violation of the rules and his chip should have been turned in or he should have been DQ'd for not hitting the timing mat at Shea Ave. on the third loop. The rules are clear and if you don't hit the timing mat it is an automatic DQ. If he wanted to tough it out and finish then fine, but it wouldn't be "official". Also, if you don't complete 140.6 miles...you aren't an Ironman...an Ironman isn't a 2.4 mile swim, 95 mile bike, and a 26.2 mile run.

It is pretty obvious that he cut the course short regardless...and there are rules regarding that....

blueraider_mike

Nov 25, 08 15:14

Post #163 of 172 (509 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

There were much bigger packs out there...friggin ridiculas. I had one group go by me like I was standing still. Pissed me off.
******************************************
"At its start, in 1966, Medicare cost $3 billion. The House Ways and Means Committee, along with President Johnson, estimated that Medicare would cost an inflation-adjusted $12 billion by 1990. In 1990, Medicare topped $107 billion. That's nine times Congress' prediction. Today's Medicare tab comes to $420 billion with no signs of leveling off. How much confidence can we have in any cost estimates by the White House or Congress?" - economist Walter E. Williams

Writerguy

Nov 25, 08 15:40

Post #164 of 172 (493 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [clinty] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Wow. I take a little flight and my thread runs away from me.
First thanks for the kind words Fleck!
And Clinty (great name!) no worries at all.
I should have taken a deep breath and reread your note myself, before answering.

Steve's right - all I wanted to achieve was "pretty" much what happened - just to get people talking about it.
I think there's room for peer pressure out there. I'm not interested in burning anyone in effigy.
I just wanted to say - there was some intentional drafting out there and maybe if we started to say "It's not cool."
We may be able to reduce some of it. I fully support strong marshaling but I'd prefer it if those guys didn't have much to do.

One of the points that really needs to repeated was that the drafting was not necessary.
Everyone there agrees on that.

Thanks to all for taking an interest in this issue - and (for the huge majority of the time) keeping the dialogue constructive and positive.
I must confess, my initial feeling when I saw the packs out there was get numbers and out the offenders but I know that if we did that we could virtually guarantee that some innocent people would be tarred and feathered.
I REALLY wanted to avoid naming names and have little doubt that Dan (though I do not know him) would pull the thread if it degenerated to that level - and he'd be right to do that.

At any rate - it seems like we've run this one to the finish line, though I did start it and I will stick with it as long as folks still feel they have something to offer.

JoeO

Nov 26, 08 7:52

Post #165 of 172 (427 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [clinty] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

And as far as the run, I am not talking about "drafting" but pacing which absolutely can give someobeody an advantage as opposed to performing soley independently.

Pacing in running can only help you if you are a poor pacer AND the person you are running with is a good one AND is is going the pace you want to go. If they're going too fast, slow, or worst of all erratically, you're hurting yourself. Drafting, on the other hand, always helps (and helps a lot) regardless of pace.

In other words, pacing cannot be used to make up for inferior fitness the way that drafting can. Nor does it give you any advantage over the person you are pacing the way that drafting doe.

twolouis

Nov 26, 08 9:25

Post #166 of 172 (385 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [twolouis] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Apparently some do get caught and it is considered cheating...1152, Paul Evans is now officially DQ'd....looks like he did cheat...

http://www.nasports.com/results/results.php

daveinmammoth

Nov 26, 08 19:54

Post #167 of 172 (299 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Fleck,

I agree that it all depends on where you are, how long you watch....a snapshot is only that but:

I'm rel. slow on the bike so a lot of the small groups flew by me fairly quickly. I did think it was statistically unlikely that 80% of the first 100 people that passed me would be in small groups....but they were.

The "pace -line" I referred to I watched for a long time. There was a good head wind on an uphill section - so we were going 15-16 mph and the 3 followers were unwilling to pass the puller and the puller was going about my pace. When the puller swung right or left - they all zigged/zagged together almost instantly - just like you do in a pace-line. There were 4 of them and they were all very close together. I was only 20-30 feet back and there's no way they were even spaced 5 feet apart.

Guy/gal combo's - just "seemed" like the gal was hanging right on the wheel. Again - there was a lot of passing - 3rd lapers passing BOP 2nd lapers, everyone passing me....some rough pavement/potholes....so a fair amount of zig-zagging. The "pairs" would zig/zag together so #2 would stay RIGHT on #1's wheel - and I mean 1 foot off.

Dave

Fleck

Nov 27, 08 5:19

Post #168 of 172 (261 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [daveinmammoth] [In reply to]	Can't Post

When the puller swung right or left - they all zigged/zagged together almost instantly - just like you do in a pace-line.

That is a sign of intent and it is something that officials are on the lookout for. If the lead rider goes left or right and a following rider goes left or right in unison, that's a good indicator that they are potentially, purposely drafting. However, again keep in mind that the rider behind does have up to 20 seconds to move through or drop back out of the zone. So you'll need to watch them for that amount of time to make sure that they do move through( if they are slip-streaming) or they drop back out of the zone if they have been overtaken.

It is hard to at times separate the people blatently drafting and the savvy riders that are pushing the rules right to the limit. Some of the people that are complaining are really watching riders who are pushing the rules right to the limit. As I noted, if you looked at the main group of the Pro men at IMH, from a bit of a distance, you could easily come to the conclusion that they were drafting. However, when you get up to them and observe them closer in motion, you see that they are keeping exactly 10m between them. That is perfectly legal.

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

TXsoftrider

Nov 27, 08 6:40

Post #169 of 172 (250 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

my wife sat next to a penalty tent most the day and was amazed at the # of folks that had to report to it. i also noticed as i rode past several of the tents there was quite a few visitors are any given moment. i thought the marshalls did a good job to try to hand out penalties when they could but it seemed as if the packs had spotters to watch for marshalls. i had one pack pass me and just at that time a marshall passed going the other way. the marshall immediately turned back around and gave out at least 3-4 red cards. however the worst drafting i saw was on my last lap up the beeline i was passed by one guy pulling another along. the guy in tow was on him like glue and 2 different times a marshall rode up and warned the drafters but no red card. it never seemed to phase the drafter and he rode that azz all the way home to the finish. wish i knew the bib # so i could see how the guy finished. i also give props to a few pros that seemed to be yelling some colorful words when they came along some drafters. overall i thought the drafting in AZ was average and not too over the top. with that said i was also in my own world biking most the time.

beltro

Nov 27, 08 8:46

Post #170 of 172 (216 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

At about 20 sec, I am the guy on the left with the big nose and white tri top #867 who had ridden up, and is trying to ride through the group. Right after this point what you don't hear is me yelling "pass or move to your right". I'll keep it clean for the forum, but there where some other not so nice words that I had as I tried to get by people riding in formation.

Besides the last 2 miles of race, (where I thought my legs were going to be amputated after the run because my quads hurt so bad), the hardest thing I did all day was trying to stay legal. I have no problem posting my bib# for the finger pointers, I had to work my ass off passing groups and dropping back when the trains went by rather than sitting in. I have a power file from the race with more spikes than I care to look at.....

I missed a kona slot in 35-39 by five minutes and can guarantee that if I had tucked in behind the TDF time trial groups that rode by me I would be racing in Hawaii again next year.... On a good note, I did qualify in the 40-44 group, only thing is I didn't turn 40 until Yesterday... :-)

There is always going to be cheaters, that's just the way it is. Drafting, Peds, etc, I can't control that. I know I did the best I could to ride a clean race and feel good about it and my day.

I saw the thread, so I thought I would take a peak. Then I finally see myself on an Ironman video and it's from some guy who is acusing me of drafting, so I thought I would save you all the trouble of having to get out the secret spy camera sh*t to read bib numbers....

Time to eat some turkey.

Thanks, Jeff

(This post was edited by beltro on Nov 27, 08 8:50)

Writerguy

Nov 27, 08 8:58

Post #171 of 172 (209 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [beltro] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jeff,

This is the post I feared from the beginning on this.
I have absolutely NO doubt there are a few people in that video who were NOT cheating and your note has a ring of truth for me.
I do apologize if this is the case.
This is one of the reasons I really didn't want names and numbers put up.
The fact that you're willing to put up yours speaks to your character.
Sorry you so narrowly missed the Kona spot. That's the reason why we need to be vigilant on this and not just lay back and concede defeat.

Clint

Lee

Nov 27, 08 11:44

Post #172 of 172 (169 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [beltro] [In reply to]	Can't Post

since this is the post that wont die - I am also in the video - position number 2 at 11 seconds into the video, yellow tri top #446. I worked my tail off to stay legal as well and remember the guy yelling break it up. I agree with the earlier post, the second part of the story is that the officiating worked. The official rode with us and at one point after I passed the pack I looked over at the official and said please help. He stuck around for the next 10-15 minutes and the pack evaporated. It was never an issue on the second half of the ride. I am also with Jeff, i missed a slot by about 4 minutes in the 30-34 and it was tempting to sit in for awhile. But that is not the point. It is also part of the race - so either deal with it or join it. Everyone has to make the choice. I remember you jeff and also nfreeman and there were those of us trying to stay clean and get away, with the help of the official we finally did

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