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IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught?
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vjlincecum
Nov 24, 08 8:36
Post #76 of 172 (1170 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [sppnet]
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Add a timing mat to the red light camera idea.......
Devlin
Nov 24, 08 8:42
Post #77 of 172 (1155 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [h2ofun]
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Yep, and a certified Race Director, how about you? So, I spend my time and money giving back to the sport.
Dave
Not yet. I'm working on my coaching certs, actually. And I volunteered at as many races as I competed in this summer.
John
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That is 11 dimensions of awesome. Yes, string theory is necessary to fully appreciate the meta-nature of your post.-DaveRoche
dug
Nov 24, 08 8:44
Post #78 of 172 (1153 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Fleck]
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I'm with you Steve - I'm more comfortable calling out the majority of riders in this clip as riding clear than calling out even a few for "blatantly drafting". If anything, this clip is a good demonstration of why video (especially from a stationary camera) can NOT prove drafting. Each rider is on camera for maybe 5-6 seconds - the perspective changes so rapidly that you only get a split second where you can even tell definitively how close they actually are, let alone assess who's passing, being passed, or wheel sucking. Again, this video suggests to me that more people in the clip were riding "clean" than "dirty", suggests a few may be drafting, but proves nothing.
In my opinion, if this clip is representative of the blatant drafting packs that always get mentioned after an IM race then things aren't as bad as I'm always reading.
h2ofun
Nov 24, 08 8:45
Post #79 of 172 (1149 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Devlin]
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Great! Fun giving back to our sport. Lots of GREAT people involved.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
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Writerguy
Nov 24, 08 9:02
Post #80 of 172 (1110 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [h2ofun]
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Change of plans - no awards banquet! (huge sigh!)
Again - a point that needs to be clear here - we saw this pack approaching the turn around point probably 3-4 minutes before they came back around to us. They were together coming and going.
And I do agree - it's virtually impossible to say exactly who is cheating and who isn't but my conscience is clear. There were cheaters in that group - they know who they are and with the resolution as it is and the fact that not a single number is visible it's not likely there will be any unfair retribution leveled at them.
I'm hoping that in the future maybe people might start to rethink their plans that a 4' penalty is worth the gains made by riding in a pack.
It's a small thing but it's better than just bitching about things and doing nothing.
h2ofun
Nov 24, 08 9:13
Post #81 of 172 (1087 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy]
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I totally agree there are many "cheaters" on flat courses with many folks. But, I still go back to my roots in sports. I played the game as the event organizers provided.
I learned this the hard way very young. I was playing in a basketball game where it was my first and only game my grandparents came to watch. I got called for 3 fouls early in the first half and was on the bench. (Did this make me a cheater? ) At half time the official came over to me and told me what I was doing wrong. (First class official to do this). What I learned is that one needs to be flexible quickly as to the rules since different officials can call things differently.
So, for us standard AGer, I still make the comment, that if I sign up for a race, I will play by the rules and location that the RD gives me. Then if an official says I have broken a rule, I pay the penalty. No big deal, just part of the sport.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
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Writerguy
Nov 24, 08 9:21
Post #82 of 172 (1064 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [h2ofun]
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And if everyone raced with the same philosophy we'd have much cleaner races.
xm23
Nov 24, 08 10:11
Post #83 of 172 (1003 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy]
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I was out on the bike course yesterday doing a 1.5hr run trying to kill some time started at the bike out and went out to the second overpass and back. It was great to see some of the bikers actually chear me on and i want even racing! haha THANKS
I was running along side some of these packs and would yell out to them But some laughed and kept doing it. It was a sight to see that is for sure. FWIW After the run i walked over to the entance of transition and saw some some guy with a grey giro aero helmet who had a rear view mirrow attached to it!! HONESTLY DUDE!!
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Raul
Nov 24, 08 10:15
Post #84 of 172 (995 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [h2ofun]
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Oh shut up Dave. After Florida, it was "oh still pictures don't show proof of drafting, get a video". Now someone has a video, and its, "oh, we need a non-stationary video".
Get off your high horse. The guy's not an official if he's standing on the side of the road spectating. I was at a retaurant the other day, and as I was leaving a woman parked in the handicap spot right in front of the building. She had no placard or HC tags. I said that was a handicapped spot, and her reply was "are you a cop?". I don't need to be a cop to call someone out on breaking the law. Just to enforce it.
God you're annoying.
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h2ofun
Nov 24, 08 10:17
Post #85 of 172 (987 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Raul]
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What are you talking about? I have never said anything about getting "proof". I could care less.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
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Writerguy
Nov 24, 08 10:18
Post #86 of 172 (984 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [xm23]
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I saw that guy with the mirror!!!
triguy42
Nov 24, 08 10:26
Post #87 of 172 (960 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy]
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For all the naysayers about technology, a simple dumb GPS device is becoming a reality and they are a lot less expensive than you might think. All it has to do is automatically start recording GPS position on raceday (internal clock) in the morning and datalog position every second in the race. The difficulty is really in collecting all of the data after the race and setting tolerances on drafting. Despite what some say about GPS accuracy, the fact is that even Garmin and other devices typically report accuracies of 6ft or so at best, and much, MUCH worse with tree cover...more like 20-40ft. It still has a way to go but a dumb device with no display and simply a battery, RTC, GPS receiver and a couple MB of RAM will do the job. Accuracy just isn't there yet to be able to call drafting from a satellite...
Anyway, great video "YER GOING ON SLOWTWITCH!!!" Hilarious! After becoming a fast rider myself I found myself passing big packs like that in HIM races and I remembered numbers of two people that ended up with AG podium spots at the GCT this year. In my AG no less. I know I am far from being on the podium because I can't run or swim for shit, but it's annoying as hell as they clearly didn't deserve a podium spot. I think we need more roving cameras out there with a nice highres video showing the cheaters. There's always the chance you'd post someone trying to pass the whole bunch or someone who just got swallowed by the pack and is trapped in the middle temporarily but on average you'd get them. I don't have any compunction at all in saying that I think 75% of the people in that pack were intentionally drafting.
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TeamBarenaked
Nov 24, 08 10:36
Post #88 of 172 (939 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [triguy42]
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just a general reply for the thread here....
I would think if the RD's could come up with some electric scooter thingys too (I don't even know if they exist), that would help the marshalls go into stealth mode. Then only Mirror Guy is aware the law is approaching.
matti58
Nov 24, 08 10:41
Post #89 of 172 (922 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [h2ofun]
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"
I could care less." I think you mean you "couldn't" care less?
115InTheShade
Nov 24, 08 10:43
Post #90 of 172 (913 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy]
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Writerguy Flyingwombat...nice meeting you guys out there. I have to agree. 95% of the people out there raced a clean and fair race. The people tooling along at 12 MPH having a chat with each other are not the target (as long as they are not blocking others progress). But the 3
large
packs were at the front of the AG race and it was very obvious from our standpoint. There was nothing to slow or bunch them up as they approached us. We could see a long distance down the road. On a good note, after leaving the bike course I headed over to my volunteer duties at run aid station 7...I did see a lot of people with slashes through there bib numbers. So the sin bins did see some action!
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Writerguy
Nov 24, 08 10:52
Post #91 of 172 (901 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [triguy42]
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Maybe they could come up with a sensor that "turned on" whenever you got within drafting distance of another competitor and started a clock. The clock would stop when you over took the other rider and His clock would begin.
When the race was over they would take your total "cheating" time (time beyond 20") X it by 5 and add it to your time.
The technology exists. Someone just needs to see a profit in it and it'll be created.
Writerguy
Nov 24, 08 11:14
Post #92 of 172 (864 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [115InTheShade]
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Nice meeting you guys out there as well!
It's a great sport we're in!
Devlin
Nov 24, 08 11:17
Post #93 of 172 (858 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy]
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Maybe they could come up with a sensor that "turned on" whenever you got within drafting distance of another competitor and started a clock. The clock would stop when you over took the other rider and His clock would begin.
When the race was over they would take your total "cheating" time (time beyond 20") X it by 5 and add it to your time.
The technology exists. Someone just needs to see a profit in it and it'll be created.
I've proposed that a couple of times on here recently. Proximity sensors on the bike that only come on when you have two bikes in near enough proximity to be drafting. Be in "the zone" for too long and it sends alerts to the course marshals. Doesn't depend on GPS or anything like that.
John
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That is 11 dimensions of awesome. Yes, string theory is necessary to fully appreciate the meta-nature of your post.-DaveRoche
Fleck
Nov 24, 08 11:17
Post #94 of 172 (858 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Raul]
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Oh shut up Dave. After Florida, it was "oh still pictures don't show proof of drafting, get a video". Now someone has a video, and its, "oh, we need a non-stationary video".
This is not something that you can call or enforce from a stationary position on the side of the road - full stop! The way the rules are laid out the
only
way that it can be fairly assessed, is in motion at race speeds over a 20 to 25 second time period. If you have sat in on a USAT rules seminar or had the WTC's Jimmy Riccitello explain it to you, or been out on the race course at a big IM race, you would realize this is the case. This is why it's so important to have has many motorcycles as you can get to get draft marshalls out on the course. It's not the numbers of marshalls that is the issue, it's the availability of motorcycles.
Steve Fleck
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Writerguy
Nov 24, 08 11:43
Post #95 of 172 (816 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Fleck]
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I agree completely Steve - but we can influence those who might think they're getting away with it because there's no draft marshal near by.
Due to the unique nature of the course we were able to see that this group stayed together for a minimum of four minutes.
They earned our derision and got it.
I'm talking strictly about peer pressure to race clean.
I'm beginning see the seeds of apathy when it comes to drafting.
The VERY first response to his thread was a sarcastic comment that we shouldn't be surprised that there's drafting.
If we start to accept this as being just part of the game then our footing is going to get pretty slick.
We should be encouraging people to volunteer as marshals and educating them well.
We should be exploring technology to catch the cheaters.
We should be encouraging race directors to design courses/races that discourage cheating.
AND
We should be applying peer pressure to stop this movement.
Lavery
Nov 24, 08 15:42
Post #96 of 172 (709 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy]
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On lap 1 I was coming back down the hill from the turn around and the peleton was coming up the climb, thankfully with a moto glued to them handing out penalties. I yelled "Vive La Tour!" and made it my goal to not let the pack catch me.
Raul
Nov 24, 08 15:50
Post #97 of 172 (696 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Fleck]
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All I'm saying is that at least this time there is some video. After FL, there was a lot of complaints (my own included) about the drafting. Now we have video which sure looks fairly incriminating, and its still not good enough. That, and Dave drives me nuts.
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"Triathlon is for people who can't handle drugs and alcohol." -IMFL t-shirt
johnnybefit
Nov 24, 08 16:29
Post #98 of 172 (654 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Raul]
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When will the governing body allow drafting like the ITU/Olympics and end all of this comotion?
Raul
Nov 24, 08 16:44
Post #99 of 172 (643 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [johnnybefit]
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Yeah, I'm thinking that might be taking it a bit too far. A nice draft legal series, maybe. A sweeping policy change for all IM's? No...
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"Triathlon is for people who can't handle drugs and alcohol." -IMFL t-shirt
twolouis
Nov 24, 08 17:17
Post #100 of 172 (608 views)
Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Raul]
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I think drafting was the least of some people's worries yesterday...check out bib #1152' That 3rd bike split was super human...how did NA sports not catch that one?
http://ironman.com/...racker&year=2009
A pro cyclist would have a hard time pulling that fast a third loop...
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