Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught?: Page 2

Bike Shops Coaches Fitters Race Calendar NEW Running Stores Stack & Reach Training Log Triathlon Clubs
		MAIN INDEX	RULES & LEGEND	LOG IN

Search for (options)

Newsletter Signup

Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught?

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

View All

phx_willy

Nov 23, 08 21:49

Post #26 of 172 (1733 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

For what it's worth, the penalty tents were always busy on the beeline and the tent just after the turn around at Mill Ave seemed to have folks in it each time I passed.
From my view, the marshalls were working hard - that's not to say they got everyone...

Writerguy

Nov 23, 08 21:58

Post #27 of 172 (1726 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [phx_willy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I personally think that's worth a lot.
Can't hit 'em with shovels so it's good to hear some found their way to the sin bin!!

Scot

Nov 23, 08 22:15

Post #28 of 172 (1702 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

would a combination of a red light camera and timing mat work. You might be able to get the number off the chip. Determine what time 4 bike lengths would be and if photo and time match drafting might be determined.

Writerguy

Nov 23, 08 22:28

Post #29 of 172 (1682 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Scot] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I believe in the future technology will make drafting impossible to get away with.

R10C

Nov 23, 08 22:40

Post #30 of 172 (1669 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

I believe in the future technology will make drafting impossible to get away with.

LOL...and flying cars will bring us all to work....Shit, Elroy...where is Rosie?

----------------------------------------------------------

f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.

pito00

Nov 23, 08 22:58

Post #31 of 172 (1654 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Record10Carbon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

I believe in the future technology will make drafting impossible to get away with.

LOL...and flying cars will bring us all to work....Shit, Elroy...where is Rosie?

LMAO!
-------------------------------
On my way up!
"Drugs are for medical conditions. Being an athlete is not a medical condition."
-Dr. W, WADA

whittimd

Nov 24, 08 4:36

Post #32 of 172 (1557 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [pito00] [In reply to]	Can't Post

hi
im not a frequent poster. more of a lurker. i did my first ironman race yesterday in arizona. there was some drafting. my question is.....why do alot of people pass and then immediately sit up and stretch and drink. i had to sit up and fall back only to pass as soon as i was 4 bikes back. must of happened 10 times yesterday.
rant over

mbcollins

Nov 24, 08 4:51

Post #33 of 172 (1539 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for being out on the course and saying something to the riders. I passed a guy out on the beeline to see him come back a few minutes later sitting 6 inches from the wheel in of a racer passing me. As they got along side, a specator called him out on the drafting, and he sat up and fell back.

All in all, the drafting wasn't too bad. I guess it is up to us to help enforce. Later I found a guy sitting on my wheel. After looking back at him, twice indicating he should get off, I just stomped on the pedals and dropped him like a stone.

mtlrunner

Nov 24, 08 5:09

Post #34 of 172 (1512 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

thanks for posting that. i hope this starts a trend of guerilla draft marshals.

Peanut

Nov 24, 08 5:10

Post #35 of 172 (1512 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Both the video and the question about 'red-light' cameras bring me back to the same thing I've asked a few referees about - can photos and video be used to give penalties? The answer I get is: they can suggest potential drafting, but can't be used to make actual calls. Why?

Photos, with or without timing mats. They will only tell you, at the moment in time, whether the bike in back is too close to the bike in front. Now, if you come up on a slower bike in front of you and start a pass, and then 10 seconds later have your photo taken and the timing mat say's you're too close, but then a few seconds later complete your pass, the photo might imply you're drafting when you really weren't; you were in the middle of a legal pass.

A similar thing with the video. Were the bikes too close? Yes, but from the time the group came into the video until they passed the camera, it was only something like 10-12 seconds, and you've got 20 seconds to pass. Some of the riders were off to the left, and may have been passing. And if you want you can ride right up to the wheel of the bike in front of you before moving left and finishing your pass. So, a referee may have been able to hand out some penalties if they were riding along with the group, but that doesn't mean that EVERYONE in that group was guilty.

Video from a camera riding alongside the group could tell you whether passing is happening and whether it's within a legal time, but that's what the referees are out there to do - see it and call it.

doug_steel

Nov 24, 08 5:12

Post #36 of 172 (1509 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [whittimd] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You'll probably find out it was someone who had just spent 10mins on your wheel, busting a gut to keep up, then they hear a motorbike and decide to try to get YOU busted for drafting so overtake and sit up...

tim_sleepless

Nov 24, 08 5:16

Post #37 of 172 (1504 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [tuneoutthenoise] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Well... some of the guys were close.. and certainly didn't look like they were passing any time soon... but tough to make a drafting call on that short video.
Still... I'm sure the drafting was bad...

I noticed the female pro who was BLATANTLY drafting at Soma had the slowest bike split today. Interesting....

I'd like to think that calling her out at Soma guilted her into riding clean today... but who knows...

Ok, you've got me, I can't see anyone in the results who did both..

NJSteve

Nov 24, 08 5:31

Post #38 of 172 (1481 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Great video, but nothing will come from it. Why? Because you can clearly see that there are NO fins.

The use of fins is the tipping point for DQs by WTC/NAS. You can draft. You can use a motorized bike. You can probably cut the course. But if you use a fin, you're out.

Nothing WTC/NAS hates more than the use of a non-sanctioned (or at least non IM-marketed) item.

(This post was edited by NJSteve on Nov 24, 08 5:39)

smtyrrell99

Nov 24, 08 5:38

Post #39 of 172 (1472 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [doug_steel] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Or it could be someone who slowly caught the front rider, that put in a big effort to legally pass them. Once they passed they can relax. Why assume everyone is cheating?

Styrrell

doug_steel

Nov 24, 08 5:57

Post #40 of 172 (1443 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [smtyrrell99] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It was a joke, I forgot to add the irony flag :-)

smtyrrell99

Nov 24, 08 6:11

Post #41 of 172 (1415 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [doug_steel] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry, and I hate the pink font idea. If you can't get irony then you shouldn't have it spoon fed to you.

Styrrell

Fleck

Nov 24, 08 6:12

Post #42 of 172 (1411 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Clint,

Wow - clean out your in-box, my friend.

Warning - slightly contrarian view

Not defending drafters in any way, but drafting or not drafting is a very dynamic event that unfolds over 20 - 25 seconds of time. It's impossible and unfair to say someone is drafting or the people are drafting from:

- Still photographs

- Video from a stationary position

Using both techniques, it looks like many are drafting, but if you are actually riding along with them or observing the situation in real time as you move along with them, they are not. Why? 20 - 25 seconds is a long time. I suggest people count out to 20 very slowly and they will see what I mean. As along as their is movement relative to one another back and forth in and out of the drafting zone over the 20 - 25 sec time frame, then what they are doing is legal.

Note, I am not saying that their were people in that group that were not drafting. Their very likely were, but there were probably much less than you think or that are seen in the video.

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

Raptor

Nov 24, 08 6:19

Post #43 of 172 (1395 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

That video was shot about a 1/2 mile from the turnaround. Considering that things can bunch up at that place, what should they do?

On the Beeline, I saw the marshalls giving lots of penalties.

(This post was edited by Raptor on Nov 24, 08 6:20)

mrtrik

Nov 24, 08 6:35

Post #44 of 172 (1365 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Raptor] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have developed a new bike jersey that can only be read from within 4 bike lengths.

If you can read this, you are too close.

And if they don't drop back? My go go gadget thumbtacks empty out on the course. that should solve the problem.

--
WeBike.us

gamebofh

Nov 24, 08 6:44

Post #45 of 172 (1336 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [mrtrik] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I saw a few big groups out on Beeline, but it didn't really look like packs. They were always on the
downhill and I was going the other way, so it was hard to tell if they were spread out or
not.

On the first lap I did get caught in a group. It was hard to get out of it. I was out "front" (i.e.
front for me) and one person would pass me, and then pull in and slow down. So I back
off to drop out of the 10m zone, and they would just keep coming by, but then slowing
down. We finally started hitting the hill and it all broke up. That and the marshal telling
someone behind me the had to drop back and someone in front of me to get to the right.

I didn't see a single person in any penalty tent.

-Jot

Flanagan

Nov 24, 08 6:54

Post #46 of 172 (1311 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think this shows that drafting enforcement shouldn't just take place with a moto rolling up from behind. Drafting enforcement should also use spotters who coordinate with refs who are essentially hidden, sort of like a radar trap.

Writerguy

Nov 24, 08 7:08

Post #47 of 172 (1280 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Raptor] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Fleck is spot on here.
From a legal point of view there's no way a penalty can be assessed from this stationary footage.
And it's true that it's difficult to say exactly who is drafting or not drafting in the shot.
But one would have to be willfully obstinant to watch and not agree that a good deal of the riders in there were knowingly breaking the rules.
I'm kind of hoping that maybe if the community stands up and says - look enough of this BS "I just got caught up in it! I only drafted for a bit. There was a turn around and it took us at least 3' to begin busting it up. It was a flat course. What was there to do!!??" That shit don't wash.
If we start yelling from the sidelines, taking pictures and video - if we start talking about it and saying, the Marshals are doing a great job - but we're watching, then maybe folks will begin to be a little more diligent in their efforts to race an honest race.
If we throw up our hands and say - nothing can be done about it, then nothing will be done about it.

h2ofun

Nov 24, 08 7:17

Post #48 of 172 (1248 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Steve, who cares? I do not understand why a few people put SO much energy into trying to show how bad our sport is, or how so many others break rules the way they think they should be. I bet you these same folks that bitch drive over the speed limit, etc. This sport is a hobby. Unless a marshall calls a foul, as the rules state, it is nothing, no matter what video folks have, etc. Gets real old when some seem to put so much energy complaining about what others are doing. This is a hobby. If an RD gives me a flat course with too many folks, guess what, I will do what it takes to be competitive within the rules to get to the finish line as fast as I can. Bitch all you want, but some of the folks who get to Kona do not seem to care.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell

VHS to DVD transfers
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

Writerguy

Nov 24, 08 7:29

Post #49 of 172 (1217 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [h2ofun] [In reply to]	Can't Post

And some people don't get to go to Kona because there are others who don't have a problem doing whatever it takes "outside of the rules" to get that spot, do care.

And SO much effort?
Took me a moment to shoot the video and a moment to post.

I'm not really sure what your point is - honestly. Are you saying people aren't cheating? Or that they are but it's so rare we shouldn't be bothered with it?
Could you clarify?

Just Old Again

Nov 24, 08 7:30

Post #50 of 172 (1213 views)

Re: IM AZ Is it cheating if you don't get caught? [Writerguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

If we start yelling from the sidelines, taking pictures and video - if we start talking about it and saying, the Marshals are doing a great job - but we're watching, then maybe folks will begin to be a little more diligent in their efforts to race an honest race.
If we throw up our hands and say - nothing can be done about it, then nothing will be done about it.

The people who cheat don't care what you think, what I think, what Slowtwitch might think. They each have their reasons for cheating, and respect in your eyes isn't on that list.
-----------------------------------
Ken Lehner

"We are on our last bag of Life" - the wife

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

View All