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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Front race wheel depth

namaste

Nov 22, 08 18:44

Post #1 of 11 (521 views)

Front race wheel depth	Can't Post

I usually race with a disk and 404 front no matter what the wind conditions. In really strong wind I have no problem and feel really stable. In fact I am happy to have side wind with a disk because it's faster.

For those of you that use a deeper front (808 or Jet 90) how does it handle in the wind? Compared to 404 or similar if you rode that setup before.

Anyone know what time savings there are over 40km between a 404 and 808 or Jet 90 front wheel?

Thanks

Andrew

http://www.theyogapod.com

zipp

Nov 22, 08 18:52

Post #2 of 11 (505 views)

Re: Front race wheel depth [namaste] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I race a Zipp disc with Blackwell 100 front. The last race I did was VERY windy and hilly course. Speeds from 8-9mph uphill and over 40 on the way down. I felt no problem running the disc/100 combination at those speeds in the wind.
Paul
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http://casasedona.com

Supermartin73

Nov 22, 08 19:09

Post #3 of 11 (494 views)

Re: Front race wheel depth [namaste] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey,
At speed, and in high wind 808's are pretty sketchy.
I had a pair for IMC this year, and in the last 50k from yellow lake the front 808 blew around a fair bit, more than I would have liked.
This is coming from a former senior 1 who has TT'd with double disks, and am a pretty good bike handler.
The benefit of an 808 vs 404? I dont have that data.
Martin
Martin Zollinger
Ottawa, Canada
2009-first year I have to charge my bike at night (Dura-Ace is on order!)

norton

Nov 22, 08 20:21

Post #4 of 11 (457 views)

Re: Front race wheel depth [namaste] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I had an opportunity to purchase a Zipp 1080 front wheel at a screaming deal; I took it.

It took a considerable amount of time to get used to it; it freaked me out at first. After doing my last long ride before IM Florida in 20-30 mph winds, with gusts to 40, I learned to roll with the punches. At one point the gyrations were so bad my shoe popped out of the cleat!

I tell people who ask that it's like fighting with a drunk man; violent and unpredictable.

Having said all that, it's an amazingly fast wheel, much more than a Hed3 or Zipp 404. IMHO.

gabbiev

Nov 23, 08 4:00

Post #5 of 11 (376 views)

Re: Front race wheel depth [norton] [In reply to]	Can't Post

For the past two years, I've run a rear disk and a Blackwell 100 front in all kinds of imaginable conditions and on all sorts of courses. Never had a problem with handling. My wife, who's 5"2' and just round 100 lbs, rides the same configuration without problems, too.

fatbastardtris

Nov 23, 08 7:13

Post #6 of 11 (317 views)

Re: Front race wheel depth [namaste] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I just got a Jet 90 front wheel and disc but have taken them for a few windy rides already. I don't have a problem handling it in windy conditions. I even had an oncoming semi blow by me yesterday. The wind gust got my attention but I never felt out of control. What I will say is that if it is windy out you will expend a quite a bit of energy just to keep the bike from drifting side to side. I'm not able to quantify this extra energy expenditure but I definitely notice doing this.

namaste

Nov 23, 08 15:50

Post #7 of 11 (213 views)

Re: Front race wheel depth [zipp] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for the feedback. Anyone know what the time savings are for a 808/100/Jet 90 compared to a 404 over 40km or 180km.

Thanks

Andrew

http://www.theyogapod.com

sppnet

Nov 23, 08 19:11

Post #8 of 11 (145 views)

Re: Front race wheel depth [namaste] [In reply to]	Can't Post

808 is a significant difference than a 404 in terms of handling and marginally better in terms of aerodynamics. There are many factors I have found that add/subtract from stability/handling including my weight, the length of distance between the front/rear wheels, center of gravity in regards to saddle height and handlebar drop, and pad width. Personally I always ride race wheels and I have become a better bike handler for it, but everyone is a little different in terms of their skills and comfort level. I will make a few general comments though, ask yourself if the time saved is worth being blown all over the course or an accident? I find that 808s are great in 0-10 mph winds, in 11-15 mph ok, and 15+ mph starts to get sketchy quick. Distance becomes a factor too - you might be able to fight 15-20 mph winds for a sprint but it may be too much to worry about for the Ironman distance. I was looking around for a flyer that Zipp put out last year comparing speeds of their wheels at 40km and I thought I remember there to be about ~14 sec difference between a 404 and 808 but I can't seem to find it now.

ija.z

Nov 23, 08 19:30

Post #9 of 11 (134 views)

Re: Front race wheel depth [sppnet] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It is on their website in the product descriptions under the 808. As it happens I was reading up on their stuff a couple of days ago and I remember the 14s. If only because I was surprised the time savings were that small.

echappe

Nov 23, 08 19:59

Post #10 of 11 (125 views)

Re: Front race wheel depth [namaste] [In reply to]	Can't Post

There is a chart somewhere that outlines the speed differences, but its all pretty moot once you get in to the variables of weather, geography, bike handling skills and your actual power.

Different equipment is suitable for different conditions. If you talk to any win tunnel guy who knows their numbers they will tell you different wheelsets for different races. They might even go so far as to recommend different wheels for the same course, but for different weather conditions.

My wind tunnel guys are Colorado Premier Training and all those guys and girls are really smart and qualified to tell you what you need for what courses. They aren't brand loyal and they consider all the factors I outlined in the first section here.

That being said, it is nice to own a set of wheels for small races, and to learn how to actually handle the wheels. I would recommend getting an "all arounder" racing wheelset. 404s, H3s, or anything you can get a deal on thats about 50-60mm in depth. For your A list races, get the right wheels so that you can actually race your bike well and hit those PR marks. :)
------------------------------------
http://www.racewheelrental.com
Echappe Equipment, An Elite Advantage
Now offering Non-Consecutive Day Passes
Be an educated consumer- test equipment before you buy it.

echappe

Nov 23, 08 20:15

Post #11 of 11 (119 views)

Re: Front race wheel depth [namaste] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I just found this on VN:

"Zipp�s representatives also touched on recommendations for choosing the right wheel for a stage. The basic tenants of this discussion centered on Zipp�s wind tunnel data and weight. The conversation boiled down to this: A climbing wheel won�t provide a greater benefit than an aero wheel unless there is sustained climbing above 8-percent. On the flats, Zipp told the Garmin riders go deep, by using its 808, since it will save upwards of 10 watts over the 202 and for hilly stages with fast climbing that averages around 5 percent, the lighter 404 still offers an aerodynamic advantage that outweighs its additional weight over the 202."

I think it reinforces my point that different wheels are suitable for different conditions. For tris, you have the consideration between discs or deep wheels (or spoked or non-spoked), but its still the same train of thought.
------------------------------------
http://www.racewheelrental.com
Echappe Equipment, An Elite Advantage
Now offering Non-Consecutive Day Passes
Be an educated consumer- test equipment before you buy it.