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For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue
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this thread is for you. we're going to settle this right now. well, not right now, but, over the next few days. let's start with stack and reach. here's what stack and reach looks like:



let's start here. if you can just ask me questions, i'll answer them. about stack and reach, long and low, narrow and tall, whatever. what befuddles you?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Ok. I'll play. How are stack and reach values affected by the new aero/integrated/bayonet front ends? What do you use for a reference point?


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Would any of that even matter, if the measurements aren't based on handle bars or aero bars, wouldn't the stack and reach at least be frame specific and never change?



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I am not even that far, how does one (bike fitter, self-measured) determine what stack & reach is needed in a bike?
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Would any of that even matter, if the measurements aren't based on handle bars or aero bars, wouldn't the stack and reach at least be frame specific and never change?


Exactly! S+R is a way to compare frames. It's independent of saddles and bars.


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
Last edited by: MOP_Mike: Dec 6, 10 17:13
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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How do you measure your (body) stack and reach, and how do you apply that to the stack/reach of your bike? Is this how to determine the correct length stem to use/amount of spacers under the stem? (if so, how do you do that).
Thanks for the help, and sorry if these are beyond basic questions...
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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...I thought you quit drinking and posting.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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let's get into "advanced" stack and reach later. based on the poll we're now taking, we've got half our readers who're either clueless or barely hanging on. so, let's get everybody graduated from tri bike geometry 101, and then we'll get into 201.

who's struggling with tri bike geometry and fit 101? if there is any way you can put your struggles into words, please do so. if you just don't know where to begin, then, just fess that up, and we'll start as far back and as basic as we need to.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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I am trying to figure out what stack and reach I need to get Bjorn Andersson's aero position :) In all seriousness Slowman I have an odd fit question. Are frames designed with an approximate expected ratio of leg length to torso length to whatever to et. al? I feel like I am darn near maxed out on seat height (without going to shorter cranks if that makes sense) but the ability to get lower in the front is limited without drastically altering the front end. I don't honestly know where this post is going and am hoping you can sorta read minds and that my limb proportions aren't just completely jacked up.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
Last edited by: original PV: Dec 6, 10 17:27
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [edapp] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
How do you measure your (body) stack and reach, and how do you apply that to the stack/reach of your bike? Is this how to determine the correct length stem to use/amount of spacers under the stem? (if so, how do you do that).
Thanks for the help, and sorry if these are beyond basic questions...



^^^ what he asked ^^^

--------------------------------------------------------
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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what happened to mtnvet's post? wasn't me! in any case, mtnvet, we'll get to my technique for fitting subjects into their wetsuits later. we're doing bikes now.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Don't know either but I am an expert in the fitting of the wetsuits, I can write an illustrated intro for your guide if you like...



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [mtnvet] [ In reply to ]
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"How do you measure your (body) stack and reach"

stack and reach are terms of art. your body has no stack and reach. look at my diagram. THAT and that ONLY describes stack and reach.

"how do you apply that to the stack/reach of your bike?"

i'm going to describe that, but, it's my wife's b'day and we're leaving for her b'day dinner out on the town. i'll explain this tomorrow.

"Is this how to determine the correct length stem to use/amount of spacers under the stem?"

it'll all be clear tomorrow.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [mtnvet] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
How do you measure your (body) stack and reach, and how do you apply that to the stack/reach of your bike? Is this how to determine the correct length stem to use/amount of spacers under the stem? (if so, how do you do that).
Thanks for the help, and sorry if these are beyond basic questions...



^^^ what he asked ^^^

x3

How do I determine what MY stack and reach numbers are and apply that information to frame geometry. I think the answer is "visit a fitter" and "check your flexibility numbers".
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Is stack and reach really only important for tri bikes with an aero set-up? Or is it equally important for a road bike?

And how far away from your "ideal" stack and reach can you get away with? Does it really matter if you use a slightly longer stem to make up for your bikes' short reach? Or if you add a spacer or 2 because the stack is a bit low?


There are 10 types of people in the world. Those that understand binary and those with friends.
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"How do you measure your (body) stack and reach"

stack and reach are terms of art. your body has no stack and reach. look at my diagram. THAT and that ONLY describes stack and reach.

"how do you apply that to the stack/reach of your bike?"

i'm going to describe that, but, it's my wife's b'day and we're leaving for her b'day dinner out on the town. i'll explain this tomorrow.

"Is this how to determine the correct length stem to use/amount of spacers under the stem?"

it'll all be clear tomorrow.


Way to keep us hanging on. Like a good cliffhanger in a well-designed movie prequel. Bravo, sir. Bravo. LOL
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I know my frame's stack and reach. I have my Retul measurements from my fitting. How do I determine the correct size (length and rise) stem?
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Your frame diagram explains stack and reach pretty well for me. The problem I have is that without access to a fitter familiar with the system, I don't see how stack and reach numbers do anything for me. I'm currently on a road bike, and it's numbers aren't listed anyway so I can't compare anything to it. How can I use stack and reach values if I have no idea what I need?
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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What if I just order and buy a size 52cm frame, and then I adjust the height on the saddle and the size of the stem. How is stack and reach impacted?
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [YaHey] [ In reply to ]
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What if I just order and buy a size 52cm frame, and then I adjust the height on the saddle and the size of the stem. How is stack and reach impacted?

They arent impacted, they are points in space. You can use any combintaion of frame size and after market stems, saddles, and seat posts to get to those points. The important question is after you have your points, what is the best combination of all that stuff to get you ass through the race as fast and comfortable as possible.

Edit: I'm actually talking about fit coordinates realted to stack and reach, when you threw out your question is seemed to be about the fit aspect, and not just the frame stack and reach..
Last edited by: monty: Dec 6, 10 19:22
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Micawber] [ In reply to ]
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buy a ruler

In Reply To:
Your frame diagram explains stack and reach pretty well for me. The problem I have is that without access to a fitter familiar with the system, I don't see how stack and reach numbers do anything for me. I'm currently on a road bike, and it's numbers aren't listed anyway so I can't compare anything to it. How can I use stack and reach values if I have no idea what I need?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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TEAM GREEN
SWIM - CYCLE - RUN - VEGAN

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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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we're going to settle this right now.


LOL ... nice try. ;-)
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

Good evening. First and foremost thank you for taking the time to explain in detail over the next few days what stack and reach are. I for one, will admit that I'm clueless. This year I had to put my lack of knowledge in the hands of others. This was particularly uncomfortable for me as the investment I was making was very well north of several thousand(s). Not only that, but having a passion for a sport and not being educated in the field is, to say the least, annoying/offensive even. So again, thank you for taking the time to explain S&R. One last thing, could you please water down your explanations. You're like a walking encyclopedia and while I don't consider myself inadequate, bike geometry might as will be alien to me with a foreign language all it's own. Bear with me.

Here we go.....

Dan,

Could you please define: reach?

Could you please define stack?

I can clearly see how you measure reach (do we read this in cm or mm), but can't understand how you're measuring stack. It seems that you only travel so far back from the head tube, why? Are my questions making any sense? Once I have these numbers, are they independent of each other or do I need to add them together? Subtract them? Or other? Are S&R meaningless without physical measurements? If so, which are the critical measurements required (from the body) to make sense of S&R and how they correlate? Does S&R have anything to do with stand over height? Yes, I'm serious and obviously clueless. Help me Dan. I'd really like to learn. I'm sure I have other questions, but just can't think of them at this very moment.

Sir, I look forward to your response.

Respectfully,

-J



Jehovah and family unity above all.
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Re: For the 50 percent who are barely hanging on / no clue [VelocityDriven] [ In reply to ]
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Since Dan is out with his wife, let me try...

(do we read this in cm or mm)...mm are probably the most accurate but you can use any units you want as long as you can convert from your units to someone else's units

but can't understand how you're measuring stack. It seems that you only travel so far back from the head tube, why?...stack and reach both go from the center of the bb to the center of the top of the head tube, stack is the vertical dimension, reach is the horizontal dimension

Once I have these numbers, are they independent of each other or do I need to add them together? Subtract them? Or other?...reach is a horizontal measurement, stack is a vertical measurement, they are independent

Are S&R meaningless without physical measurements?...stack and reach are based ON FRAME DIMENSIONS ONLY, they have nothing to do with personal measurements, tire size, etc.

If so, which are the critical measurements required (from the body) to make sense of S&R and how they correlate?...see above

Does S&R have anything to do with stand over height?...no, see above again
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