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Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please

00

Oct 6, 08 15:11

Post #1 of 16 (511 views)

Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please	Can't Post

I have been told repeatedly to "pull deeper". He states that I'm dropping my elbow but also that I need to pull with a straighter arm.

I have had a few discussions with him about this and I'm not 100% clear about what he's asking for -- this advice almost seems self-contradictory. Any ideas?
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Note to self: increase training load.

mckenzie

Oct 6, 08 15:28

Post #2 of 16 (494 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [00] [In reply to]	Can't Post

i can't comment specifically on what your coach means, but it sounds like what slowman described as 'swimming over a barrel' (search the articles for it, it was a while ago).

the idea is that through the meat of the stroke, your wrist and elbow should be perpendicular to water surface. this allows you to pull with your entire forearm instead of just your hand.

this takes some practice, and it helps to start slow (and yes, it may take a while).

when you enter the water, the first motion should be to drop your hand/wrist (with elbow in place as much as possible). when the wrist is directly 'below' your elbow, start pulling with your entire arm. this starts at about your head.

continue to pull with the entire forearm until your elbow is at the end of its range of motion. at this point just pull through the remainder of the stroke with your hand.

here's the article for you:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...r_a_barrel__238.html

also, check out youtube for some underwater freestyle videos from good swimmers. it may give you a better idea what it should look like (i find that helps a lot of people).

mckenzie

00

Oct 6, 08 16:02

Post #3 of 16 (465 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [mckenzie] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

but it sounds like what slowman described as 'swimming over a barrel'

Exactly my point -- thus the contradiction. You're not going to swim over a barrel with a straight arm.
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Note to self: increase training load.

kevinp01

Oct 6, 08 16:09

Post #4 of 16 (456 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [00] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Not straight, but, in your coach's words, straighER. As you drop your elbow I would guess the angle probably closes down to less than 90 degrees. You will have some bend to the elbow (reaching over the barrel) but you want to keep it obtuse.

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"Wow, are you a triathlete?"
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If spoken by a non-swimmer, that's a compliment. When spoken by a swimmer....
-glitch

tigerchik

Oct 6, 08 16:38

Post #5 of 16 (429 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [00] [In reply to]	Can't Post

single arm drill might help you sort this out. One arm is extended, stroke only with the other arm. Breathe on the side of the arm you're stroking with. When you do it right you should feel your hips open right up.

So 75s of left arm right arm SWIM or 100s of left right catchup swim.
_________________________________________________________
"You should know what you stand for, not just what you're against."
-Speak

pswim

Oct 6, 08 18:19

Post #6 of 16 (383 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [00] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Swim with closed fists! The drill will help you feel the water pressure on your forearms rather than just on your hands. If you're dropping your elbow, you won't get the propulsion you need with the closed fist.

Try doing 50 fist drill, 50 swim for a 500 the next time you're in the water.

jyeager

Oct 7, 08 6:41

Post #7 of 16 (320 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [00] [In reply to]	Can't Post

If your masters coach is grooming you for sprinting...it's valid to keep a straighter arm.

That being said...we'll move on to the more proper stroke for long/medium distances....you'll basically extend your arm forward as far as you can which rotates the body. Then after 'scraping off the bubbles' (rather than saying 'glide' which would lead you to coasting), you hinge your elbow around 90 degrees (elbow is still in front of your head) then keeping the forearm vertical, you pull through the shoulder until your elbow hits your hip, then kick back at the elbow using tricep.

Just another description of what you've already been told. I assume your coach is somehow trying to tell you this same thing. Your elbow and hand will be to the side of your body (perhaps that's why he's telling you that your arm is too low?) and if your hand is pulling down the center line of your body then that might be why he's saying to straighten your arm more.

Kevin in MD

Oct 7, 08 7:11

Post #8 of 16 (298 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [00] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You have the things confused I think.

High elbow = distinct internal rotation of the humerus at the beginning of the stroke. This allows you to get your elbow orthogonal to the water's surface.
Dropped elbow = either lack of internal rotation or an external rotation of the humerus at the beginning of the stroke.

So the difference in those two things, dropped elbow or high elbow is really what is happening at your shoulder and is independent of the amount of flexion at your wrist.

However, a compounding issue is that when you drop your elbow by externally rotating it is normal to see the swimmer also have a flexed elbow. This puts your forearm in a position nearly parallel to the water's surface, not good for grabbing water. You can see this if you freeze frame the dropped elbow video above, humerus externally rotated, elbow flexed, hand trailing the elbow as it pulls through the water.

So you CAN do both, maintain a high elbow with internal rotation of the shoulder, and also keep your elbow straight or nearly straight as your coach has suggested.

But really you need to be discussing this with him or her, there is a ton of info lost in translation.

One other thing, it is entirely possible, I'd say likely actually that if you go out and start trying this added internal rotation straight away, you can injure yourself. You need to take it slow since you probably don't have the flexibility or strength to pull it off for any length of time.

(This post was edited by Kevin in MD on Oct 7, 08 8:38)

tigerchik

Oct 7, 08 7:31

Post #9 of 16 (278 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [Kevin in MD] [In reply to]	Can't Post

oooh, "fancy" terms like internal rotation, flexed elbow, orthogonal,, I learn more kinesiology on Slowtwitch than I ever did in class...

nice answer!
_________________________________________________________
"You should know what you stand for, not just what you're against."
-Speak

00

Oct 7, 08 10:00

Post #10 of 16 (220 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [Kevin in MD] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Great advice. I can see very distinctly the difference between those pulls. The problem is actually getting the feel for what that "internal rotation" feels like. As another poster suggested, I have been doing fist drills to get a feel for this -- I'm assuming this is the best way?

As to your last point about flexibility/injury: I hear that. I'm currently doing less volume with short distances (25's/50's/100's) to really try to work on form. He typically comments on this toward the end of a workout, when I notice my stroke count starting to increase anyway. I can point to the very small (it seems) muscle that gets tired toward the outside back of my shoulder.

Actually executing proper form is hard for me to visualize, thus the frustration. I'm definitely not a natural. Thanks all for the input.
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Note to self: increase training load.

vortmax

Oct 7, 08 10:30

Post #11 of 16 (187 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [00] [In reply to]	Can't Post

i'm usually not one to recommend pool toys, and I try to avoid them when possible, but you might consider trying out Finis's forearm fulcrum. Google search them to see what they look like.

When you drop your elbow, you end up rotating your wrist to keep perpendicular to the direction of travel. These things lock your wrist in place and nearly fall off if you rotate your hand at all. So to keep them on, you have to keep your elbow high.

I've been using them for a few weeks now and can say that while I haven't witnessed a dramatic improvement in speed, I have noticed a big difference in how my entire pull feels (but my overall economy during closed fist drills has improved). The paddles put my arm in the proper position so I could feel what the pull was supposed to be, then I could work on mimicking it in closed fist drills and while swimming in general.

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"If you're allowed to swim in a wet suit, I should be allowed to run in roller blades." -My Masters coach

h2ofun

Oct 7, 08 10:40

Post #12 of 16 (169 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [jyeager] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Okay, how do you "scrape off the bubbles"?

Dave

MyAthlete.biz GPS
Bringing families into your racing

Kevin in MD

Oct 7, 08 10:43

Post #13 of 16 (158 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [00] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You can get a set of stretch cords and do what I'm doing in the full pull video. Nice and slowly light cords and highish reps to get the motor pattern right. Then hop right into the pool if you can and swim an easy 50 - 150 yards or so.

Repeat the whole thing 6 times or so.

jyeager

Oct 7, 08 11:44

Post #14 of 16 (107 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [h2ofun] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Okay, how do you "scrape off the bubbles"?

Dave

You might be playing with me over my whimsical choice of words...but I'll assume your question is serious:

I was referring to what is often called the 'glide phase' of the stroke. I just object to the word 'glide' because it conjures misconceptions about the swim stroke...mainly the idea that it's good to 'glide' which it isn't...it isn't because you decelerate and you want to keep constant pressure on the water. ( this sort of contradicts the total immersion teaching I suppose).
So I have heard it called 'scraping off the bubbles'. It refers to the fact that when your recovering arm enters the water in front, it brings in a lot of air bubbles with it. If you pull IMMEDIATELY, the water around your arm will cavitate and you won't get a grip. Ever tried to do freestyle with a cadence of 100? You get no grip on the water.
The idea is to leave the extended arm forward just long enough for the bubbles to move away from the extended arm. (the pulling arm is still propelling you at this point and only just about to finish).

h2ofun

Oct 7, 08 11:58

Post #15 of 16 (87 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [jyeager] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Was a totally serious question since I have the problem. I watch many put their hands in much sooner than I do and I do not see a lot of them have bubbles. I have finally getting a little better stretching out and rotating now. But, I still pull with lots of bubbles on the hand. I will have to play with "gliding" more but this would seem to want to slow me down.

Dave

MyAthlete.biz GPS
Bringing families into your racing

jyeager

Oct 7, 08 12:15

Post #16 of 16 (78 views)

Re: Fishtwitch: interpret Masters coach advice please [h2ofun] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Right, the bubbles decrease your grip on the water. So what to do about it? Obviously a momentary pause before beginning the pull helps, but during this pause your opposite hand is still pulling...to wait longer than that means decelerating. After that pause the other things I can think of are to decrease the splash at arm entry and to put a bit of the 'S' in the beginning of your pull...sort of like pulling outward to gather a 'ball' of water then pull it in and back. It brings to mind the breast stroke pull in a way, at least for the first few inches of pull.

Odds are that you are a much more experienced swimmer than I am, so offer your advice too. For me it becomes a problem in 50 Free. I have a lot of upper body strength, but find my arms ripping through the water without enough traction.
At slower speeds my grip is fine, but I think I'm turning over too quickly in a sprint.