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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Felt AR.... Legitimate contender to the Cervelo Soloist?

Joe Santos

Oct 2, 08 22:44

Post #1 of 21 (1219 views)

Felt AR.... Legitimate contender to the Cervelo Soloist?	Can't Post

First off, I am a Felt dealer. But for that matter, I'm a Cervelo and Ridley dealer as well, amongst many others. So take what follows as you will.

I think Felt has really stepped up the aero road bike market with the introduction of the AR. On paper, I was only moderately impressed. However, seeing it in person at Interbike really changed my opinion. This bike is significantly different than every other aero road bike on the market. For that matter, in my opinion, the only other player in that market is the Soloist. And remember, I'm a Ridley dealer. There are just so many features of the Noah that go against what we are taught is aero (and Cervelo is my frame of reference), that I have a hard time buying into it as anything more than an aesthetically aero bike.

The AR, though, is very different. It takes what Cervelo does with the Soloist and and incorporates even more traits of their TT bike lineage. What in particular? Most notably the front wheel and rear wheel cutouts, cable routing, the shape of the headtube, and the straight top tube. It truly looks like a slightly slacker DA.

I think it is awesome that Felt and Cervelo are going head to head in this market as well as the TT market. These two companies are the ones that I personally respect the most in the bike world in regards to engineering. If you talk to employees at either company, you truly get the impression these are bike organizations based entirely around solid engineering. Very refreshing.

So let's take a quick look at the similar/dissimilar parts of the 2 bikes:

Cable Routing - Both use cable routing that dives through top tube behind the stem. It'll be interesting to see how this works. I'm honestly a bit concerned about keeping cables tight against the stem. For me it's an aesthetic thing AND I hate hitting my knees against cable housing when standing out of the saddle. I think we need a guide off the stem to retain the housing. Now I haven't shifted either yet, but I have to say in theory I like the Cervelo system a bit better. Less cable housing almost always results in better shifting. The internal cable stops in the Cervelo is a clean, clever way of reducing cable drag. However, the Felt system of full housing is tried and true in their TT rigs. We'll see.

Top Tube - Sloping on the Cervelo, (pretty) straight on the Felt. Cervelo has always taught us that a straight top tube is more aero. They just couldn't sell the Soloist with the straight top tube. People didn't like the aesthetics. With a lot of engineering, they were able to shape the top tube of the carbon Soloist enough to regain the aerodynamics lost to sloping the top tube. Felt takes another route and levels off the TT.

Front and rear wheel cutouts - We all know how Cervelo feels about the front wheel cutout. And with the sheer volume of aerodynamic data they have, I have to believe them. These guys really want the front wheel cutout to work. It's one of their holy grails. But they haven't engineered or tested one yet that accomplishes the sought after goals. Felt obviously feels different, since they include it on the DA series and the AR. The rear cutout is more interesting to me. Both companies tout the significance of the cutout on their TT bikes. However, only Felt employs it on the aero road bike. The question is - why doesn't Cervelo?

One question for SuperDave - does the AR have vertical or horizontal dropouts? I didn't even look.

As a huge fan of this category of bikes, I'm personally very excited to have these companies pushing each other in terms of technology. It will only result in better products for us. I'm curious to see the reception the AR has in the retail market.

__________________________

-Joe S.

Davis Wheelworks
http://www.daviswheelworks.com
Davis, CA

The NorCal Tri, TT and Road Source For: Cervelo, Felt, Kuota, Scott, Cannondale, Look, Pinarello, Colnago, Time, Ridley, Seven. Zipp, Mavic, HED. Profile, X-Lab, Hydrotail.

(This post was edited by Joe Santos on Oct 3, 08 8:08)

cyclenutnz

Oct 2, 08 23:15

Post #2 of 21 (1201 views)

Re: Not enough excitement about the Felt AR? [Joe Santos] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

There are just so many features of the Noah that go against what we are taught is aero (and Cervelo is my frame of reference), that I have a hard time buying into it as anything more than an aesthetically aero bike.

Their own testing doesn't show it to be aero if you correct some of the obfuscating factors - I posted some analysis in this thread http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...string=noah;#1915260

I'm really impressed by the AR too, though it will be a long time before I see one here in NZ. I actually prefer it to the SLC (in concept) thanks to the slightly more traditional road geometry and appearance.

I'm sure that Tom D will do a big write up as soon as he gets one - that will help you generate some hype :-)

(This post was edited by cyclenutnz on Oct 2, 08 23:16)

islandman

Oct 2, 08 23:38

Post #3 of 21 (1179 views)

Re: Not enough excitement about the Felt AR? [Joe Santos] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I know I'm excited enough about the AR, it looks stunning and I want one.

------------------------------

- IM Austria 09

(This post was edited by islandman on Oct 3, 08 8:43)

SuperDave

Oct 3, 08 0:47

Post #4 of 21 (1157 views)

Re: Not enough excitement about the Felt AR? [Joe Santos] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

One question for SuperDave - does the AR have vertical or horizontal dropouts? I didn't even look.

__________________________

-Joe S.

Joe,

I'm sorry I missed you at the show, we had a fleet of AR bikes at Dirt Demo and they were a huge hit. The most ridden bike we showed by far.

As far as the dropouts, they are vertical, just like most traditional road bikes. This allows for the fastest wheel changes for our professional riders. This concession along with the brake location were compromises in the aero-or-die vs. ProTour function. If Garmin can't get a wheel change in 8 seconds, they won't ride the bike. If you get a neutral wheel, you'll need to adjust your brakes, so the rear brake needs to be accessible on the fly. As far as cable routing goes, just be sure to use SP41 housing and non-sealed ferrules in the brake hood. You'll have no issues with exessive drag. As soon as I can get a S3 I'll dissect the parts of the cable stops and get an apples to apples comparison. I've heard crazying stuff like our full housing liners add 200 grams. Each tube only weights 7 grams, so I think the weight difference is quite a bit different. Also consider our tubes can remain thin as they do not have to support any brake or cable load. Any compression of the stop will affect the indexing. To keep the system stiff, more material is needed.

As far as the horiztonal dropouts used on the DA and other tri bikes our pros use, in a TT, most often they'll just have another bike on the roof of the follow can and not even bother with the wheel change.

-SD

http://feltbicycles.blogspot.com/

Joe Santos

Oct 3, 08 1:13

Post #5 of 21 (1145 views)

Re: Not enough excitement about the Felt AR? [SuperDave] [In reply to]	Can't Post

This is what I was hoping to hear about the dropouts, Dave. Rear facing dropouts on a road bike always conjure up images of my old Klein's. The brake in the standard location makes perfect sense. Regarding the weight differences, I just assummed people were referring to the AR using continuous housing versus the S2/S3 not using full housing. They are not talking about the guide tubes in the frame, unless I'm way mis-understanding. They are just talking about weight differences between the sheer amount of housing used. I too, haven't actually seen the cable stops inside the S2/S3. Hoping and assumming they are mounted in an extremely rigid fashion.

Your comments regarding sealed ferrules are worthy of another thread. We don't like to use sealed ferrules because they do increase friction significantly - I believe enough to affect shift quality. Ironically, these are an integral part of cable/housing systems that tout excellent, long lasting shift quality. I feel the inherent act of keeping debris out of the housing implies a comprimise in shift quality. If only there were another way to shift, maybe without cables........

_______________________

-Joe S.

Davis Wheelworks
http://www.daviswheelworks.com
Davis, CA

The NorCal Tri, TT and Road Source For: Cervelo, Felt, Kuota, Scott, Cannondale, Look, Pinarello, Colnago, Time, Ridley, Seven. Zipp, Mavic, HED. Profile, X-Lab, Hydrotail.

nellis

Oct 3, 08 1:27

Post #6 of 21 (1139 views)

Re: Not enough excitement about the Felt AR? [Joe Santos] [In reply to]	Can't Post

you mean with cables that don't move?

then you could use the dura ace electric shifting thingy.

edit maybe shimano should make a wireless version, only problem it would have to be absolutly relaible i don't want to be stuck in 53*11 after a downhill and not being able to shift for the next hill

(This post was edited by nellis on Oct 3, 08 1:29)

Joe Santos

Oct 3, 08 8:10

Post #7 of 21 (1009 views)

Re: Not enough excitement about the Felt AR? [nellis] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I was actually thinking Zap or Mektronic - but I guess Di2 would offer a solution as well.

__________________________

-Joe S.

Davis Wheelworks
http://www.daviswheelworks.com
Davis, CA

The NorCal Tri, TT and Road Source For: Cervelo, Felt, Kuota, Scott, Cannondale, Look, Pinarello, Colnago, Time, Ridley, Seven. Zipp, Mavic, HED. Profile, X-Lab, Hydrotail.

bootsie_cat

Oct 3, 08 8:36

Post #8 of 21 (953 views)

Re: Felt AR.... Legitimate contender to the Cervelo Soloist? [Joe Santos] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Too bad Felt made a mess of the geometry. As Gerard pointed out on another thread. 52-54- and 56 have very small reach differences.

Macho Grande

Oct 3, 08 8:39

Post #9 of 21 (940 views)

Re: Felt AR.... Legitimate contender to the Cervelo Soloist? [Joe Santos] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Joe:

I like the AR too, but have not seen any MSRP's on the bike. DO you have any ball park ideas?

Bob
----------------------------------------------------------
"Don't do stupid shit" - Tom Demerly

machogrande.wordpress.com
(Updated November 20 with "Denouement"

Tom Demerly

Oct 3, 08 8:40

Post #10 of 21 (935 views)

Re: Not enough excitement about the Felt AR? [cyclenutnz] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The AR is certainly on our review list. It is a noteworthy addition to Felt's line-up. We'll see how it fares...

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/
(NOTE: This poster owns a retail business selling triathlon related products).

TriMike

Oct 3, 08 9:11

Post #11 of 21 (875 views)

Re: Not enough excitement about the Felt AR? [Joe Santos] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey Joe...nice write up on the bike. I am curious, from the stand point of a retailer, who you see buying a bike like this? I know Davis is pretty flat so it makes sense there but what about a bike you would ride a lot in the mountains here in Sonoma County? How does it compare to standard road bikes in terms of weight and vertical compliance? You have a great shop by the way...looks like more bikes per square foot than anything around here!

renegade027

Oct 3, 08 9:29

Post #12 of 21 (837 views)

Re: Not enough excitement about the Felt AR? [nellis] [In reply to]	Can't Post

That happened to one of the Gerolsteiner dudes in this year's TdF -can't remember who it was... Cohl???..who was testing the electero-electronic DA for Shimano. As for the wireless version, I'm thinking random gear switchs due to interference with overhead/underground cables, passing cars, etc - much like some 'coded' cyclocomputers and HR monitors.

Of course in a few years Shimano may sort things out and make their electronic gruppo reasonably reliable.

AndrewSaar

Oct 3, 08 9:42

Post #13 of 21 (819 views)

Re: Not enough excitement about the Felt AR? [SuperDave] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Any idea when pricing will be up on the site for all the new models that you guys made us want?

-Andrew Saar
Il Buono, il brutto, il cattivo, in my case heavy on the latter 2

AlexG

Oct 3, 08 9:54

Post #14 of 21 (784 views)

Re: Not enough excitement about the Felt AR? [AndrewSaar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

When the prices were listed on the new Felt site I think I saw about 9k for the team edition.

smtyrrell99

Oct 3, 08 9:59

Post #15 of 21 (774 views)

Re: Not enough excitement about the Felt AR? [renegade027] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Shimano must have hated for that to happen on the coverage. Cable systems have problems also, (mud, stretch, broken cables etc) but no one makes a big deal about it. One problem with new technology and the world knows about it. I certainly wouldn't buy 1st generation stuff, mechanical or electrical, you're the tester and you pay a premium to be the tester. I suspect that 5 years from know a significant portion or consumers on the Ultegra and up level will be electronic.

Styrrell

SuperDave

Oct 3, 08 12:00

Post #16 of 21 (658 views)

Re: Felt AR.... Legitimate contender to the Cervelo Soloist? [bootsie_cat] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Too bad Felt made a mess of the geometry. As Gerard pointed out on another thread. 52-54- and 56 have very small reach differences.

We don't make a 52cm, the smallest size is a 51cm. The reach is bound by CPSC guidelines on toe overlap. The front center has to remain fixed, and the Slipstream team has a need for guys to ride in the 72 degree range for seat angles.

The bike suits most down to around 5'5" without going outside the normal component ranges in terms of length.

Remember, the seat angle is much slacker that our F-series bikes in the small sizes, the bikes are shorter in reach than anything we currently offer in a similar size.

-SD

http://feltbicycles.blogspot.com/

ironheart

Oct 3, 08 12:11

Post #17 of 21 (634 views)

Re: Felt AR.... Legitimate contender to the Cervelo Soloist? [Joe Santos] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Do you carry any Felt Tri bikes (B12 or above) or frameset with a 650cm wheelset setup if so, please PM with your selection?

softrider

Oct 3, 08 12:14

Post #18 of 21 (626 views)

Re: Felt AR.... Legitimate contender to the Cervelo Soloist? [Joe Santos] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Wouldn't the look 576 also be in the class of a aero road bike. Aside from geometry, the bike has vertical drop outs, standard brakeset placing, and aerodynamic tubes. Plus, with the larger gap in the rear wheel fairing(merits of this can be debated in another thread), less chance for road junk to get caught up in the wheel.

Joe Santos

Oct 3, 08 23:32

Post #19 of 21 (448 views)

Re: Felt AR.... Legitimate contender to the Cervelo Soloist? [SuperDave] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I had no idea there was a CPSC regulation for shoe overlap. Do you know what FC measurement is limited to?

______________________

-Joe S.

Davis Wheelworks
http://www.daviswheelworks.com
Davis, CA

The NorCal Tri, TT and Road Source For: Cervelo, Felt, Kuota, Scott, Cannondale, Look, Pinarello, Colnago, Time, Ridley, Seven. Zipp, Mavic, HED. Profile, X-Lab, Hydrotail.

SuperDave

Oct 3, 08 23:35

Post #20 of 21 (447 views)

Re: Felt AR.... Legitimate contender to the Cervelo Soloist? [Joe Santos] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It depends on your appetite for litigation.

I'm sure it is listed on the cpsc.gov website somewhere.

http://feltbicycles.blogspot.com/

dpm

Oct 7, 08 15:40

Post #21 of 21 (240 views)

Re: Felt AR.... Legitimate contender to the Cervelo Soloist? [Joe Santos] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Joe -- I had no idea either, so out of morbid curiosity I went searching:
http://www.cpsc.gov/...o/regsumbicycles.pdf

It also mandates all those stupid reflectors I had to pull off (including on pedals!) and a bunch of other stuff.

Very interesting reading. I'm glad I feel so protected now... and I see so many bikes that wouldn't pass...