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Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas

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Blakebeck

Aug 27, 08 6:11

Post #1 of 27 (675 views)

Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas	Can't Post

I first want to say that in my original post to Scott's thread, I wrote regarding CDA and said that "I saw 2 motorcycles...the whole ride.” With this comment, I was not implying that there was any cheating at the race, it was very clean.

OK.......

I wanted to start another post to possibly, publicly, brainstorm SERIOUS ideas on enforcing elite non-drafting races. Those that are in charge do read these threads.

Yes I agree that rule changes with the draft zone would be beneficial, but we have to remember that the job of officiating is a VERY tough one. They are responsible for handing out penalties to those that are trying to make money, or have trained thousands of hours to win a race. They can't sit behind every_single_rider all the time and we have to believe that they are doing the best they can with what they see out there. There are most likely a few that are looking to get around the rules, but the majority of us ride clean...the best we can, always.

Whatever the boundaries are, they are going to get pushed...that is just how it works. No matter what happens, people will always be upset. Have you ever heard of an athlete admitting that they were drafting, after they received a penalty??

I don't want to get away from the purpose of this post. What are serious ideas that you other elites have regarding rule changes? Drafting or otherwise. Try to put yourself in everyone's shoes here. Other athletes, officials, race direction, etc.

Here are two ideas, with a little commentary

1) Expand the draft zone to 10m front wheel to back wheel. Only problem here is that on multi-loop courses, it would be tough to enforce with age groupers. Think about a huge draft zone at IMAZ on the 2nd lap. 2) What about a stager rule when within 10m? Not 1/2mile up the road? Again, could be an issue with age groupers.

-
blakebecker.blogspot.com
www.blakebecker.com

gatorFL

Aug 27, 08 6:26

Post #2 of 27 (647 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [Blakebeck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I never understood why the stagger rule is in effect while someone is mile up the road. At Memphis in May, the guys and girls do a TT start all mixed together. I was coming up behind a girl on the bike to pass her on the right (she's riding on the left). The next guy up in front of her is still over a hundred meters up the road, but switches sides. This causes the girl I'm passing to switch sides to the right just as I'm coming up behind her. I'm calling out, "on your right" several times, but she doesn't hear (very windy) and we end up rubbing shoulders as I'm inches from the shoulder and we both come close to crashing. I think if there were a shorter limit on when the stagger rule takes effect (15 m?), stuff like this wouldn't happen. If there were another guy obviously in front of her when I passed, I would've seen him switch sides and expected the girl adjust to the right. But I didn't even know the next guy up the road was there, so I never saw him switch sides and never expected the girl to adjust. There's obviously no drafting benefit at 100 m, so I think the stagger just causes a headache that far away.

Blakebeck

Aug 27, 08 6:30

Post #3 of 27 (641 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [gatorFL] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Another rule...don't knock other's ideas. Just add yours.

We are brainstorming here.

The eyes may be watching.
-
blakebecker.blogspot.com
www.blakebecker.com

Dan3

Aug 27, 08 6:37

Post #4 of 27 (627 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [Blakebeck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

For the elites in an Ironman, make it the same as UCI time trial rules:
25m zone and when passing, must by 2m off to the side of the rider in front. Much easier to judge drafting infractions. And at 40+km/h, this represents only about 2 seconds between riders.

Dan

Fleck

Aug 27, 08 6:44

Post #5 of 27 (616 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [Blakebeck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Blake,

Having been out on the the course following the pros around at a number of NAS IM races for Ironmanlive over the past few years here's my thoughts on the matter.

1. For the Pro Men, there really is no excuse. You guys have lots of road and lots of time to sort it out and spread it out. The blantant drafters are fairly obvious. I don't think any fancy, hi-tech soloutions are needed here. Extra offcial reasources may be helpful, but Jimmy Riccitello tells me that it's a challenge getting enough people on Motos. That's the key limitation from what I understand.

2. Years ago there seemed to be a mutual understanding that we would not draft off of one another. Back then it was self-policed and self-enforced. There were no offcials out on the course! But back then we knew one another quite well and I think there was a great deal of respect amongst the pros. It was a smaller closer knit group. I am not saying that there is not that today, but I suggest you guys start to talk to one another more, before, during and after the races. It's time that you took matters into your own hands and not depend on the officials for everything. Unlike the AG'ers you guys have the space and the time to sort this out in an easy fashion.

3. The Pro women is a whole different game. Half of their race on the bike is fine and because their fields are even smaller than the pro men that are typically able to sort it out on their own. The big problem for them is that even the faster cyclists, who have had a slow swim are going to get caught by the top AG Men, sometime beyond the 50 mile mark of the ride. It is then VERY challenging for these women to ride their own race AND ride clean. No easy solution here.

Steve Fleck
steve@nineteenwetsuits.com
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com

c.dan.jog

Aug 27, 08 6:53

Post #6 of 27 (591 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [Blakebeck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Instead of 10m or 7m, whatever the distance, why not a 4 seconds or 5s or 6s gap. That's a pretty good distance at 25mph. It's easy for the athletes to gauge and easy for the officials to enforce. I think the stagger rule creates a lot of headaches for everyone.

I haven't raced under the stagger rule, but I've seen AG men trying to ride around a pro woman riding on the LHS of the road. Most AG men don't undertand the rule and don't want to pass on the right so they yell at the WPro or cross the yellow line.

I think, in general, athletes have a hard time estimating the distance between their front wheel and the bike in front of them and that's why the athlete, after recieving a penalty, proclaims their innocence.

I do think, though, that everyone knows how to count steamboats.
www.fleetfeetchicago.com

www.wmds-unleashed.com

GregX

Aug 27, 08 7:02

Post #7 of 27 (576 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [Blakebeck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

reduce the problem by breaking up most of the bike packs before they are created:

make standard triathlons swim-run-bike, instead of swim-bike-run.

"Half of what we taught you is wrong. Unfortunately, we do not know which half."
-- Dean and cardiologist C. S. Burwell to a Harvard Med School graduating class.
Where would you want to swim ?

c.dan.jog

Aug 27, 08 7:07

Post #8 of 27 (562 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [GregX] [In reply to]	Can't Post

That would mean closing the roads for a very, very long time. It would break up the packs though...
www.fleetfeetchicago.com

www.wmds-unleashed.com

TriBriGuy

Aug 27, 08 7:09

Post #9 of 27 (552 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [GregX] [In reply to]	Can't Post

That wouldn't work, Greg...at least for the elites... You'd have packs drafting on the swim...packs forming on the run...and then everyone enters the bike together. RDs would also have to contend with sprint finishes on bikes...which have a whole host of issues. And can you imagine the carnage that would ensue with a 25-strong pack of AGers trying to sprint to the line on their tri-bikes? Or when the dipshit AG guy sprints to finish ahead of an BOP-of-the-elite-women female finisher to avoid getting "chicked"?

No...on second thought...not a good idea.

********************
AmZof Lemming

NGMN

Aug 27, 08 7:17

Post #10 of 27 (535 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [Blakebeck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Unfortunately, I think that pack riding is the mentality of long distance racing these days. Elites have all the space in the world, and still end up ass to ass in almost every IM race, is it because they are so evenly matched? I doubt it. The 3-10 results at IMC are very, very discouraging.

Here would be my suggestions:

1. We need more officials, who know the rules of the sport but less of the interplay, politics and athletes. It's not that hard to find competent guys with motor cycles who have their Sunday afternoons free.

2. We need a longer draft zone(measured back wheel to front wheel), with markers setup by the roadside demonstrating the draft zone. Every 1-10 miles, there should be big orange markers 7m or 10m apart which can serve as reminders of how far back athletes should be. Put an official at these?

3. Athletes need to hold each other accountable(I think what Fleck was getting at).

4. Some sort of timing mat system. Athlete A passes over 2 mats which give his speed of 23.7mph and Athlete B follows 1.85 seconds later which means he is x amount of meters behind. A second set of mats 200 yards up the road gives a new reading. If he is in the draft zone over the two sets of mats, penalty is added automatically by the computer.

5. Elite athletes wear gps monitors. Timex is a sponsor, they make GPS' systems. Possible?

6. Finally, seperate elite races from AG races. A clear course means less confusion, more spectators to judge the race and more focus on the Elite wave. I do realize that most cities would be fairly against a shutdown of 112 miles of city roads for the sake of 75 people.

GregX

Aug 27, 08 7:17

Post #11 of 27 (534 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [TriBriGuy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

i have been running and racing for a long time. i've done many mass-start footraces among elites with hundreds to thousands of entrants. so, unless we're on a different planet here, i really doubt that you'd have any packs forming during the run.

yes, there'd be packs coming out of the swim.
but most of those packs would be breaking up during the run.

i have also personally raced (and won) a few swim-run-bike triathlons with pretty big mass starts (300 triathletes in running into the water at once). and this kind of olympic distance format works great with regard to massively reducing bike drafting.

"Half of what we taught you is wrong. Unfortunately, we do not know which half."
-- Dean and cardiologist C. S. Burwell to a Harvard Med School graduating class.
Where would you want to swim ?

(This post was edited by GregX on Aug 27, 08 7:42)

Fleck

Aug 27, 08 7:18

Post #12 of 27 (529 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [TriBriGuy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Brian,

In additions to your great list, the first thing that came to mind for me was that in IM races over 1/3 of the field are out on the course after dark!!!

I think that this would lead to more DNF's as many people would have to resort to walking and pushing their bikes along when they could not ride any more, because they were so badly bonked or cramping up!

For sprints and Olympic distance events it might be a good to try. Buit I agree with you - triathletes on the whole are not very good bike handlers - sprint finishes for the finish line would be an absolute disaster waiting to happen!

Steve Fleck
steve@nineteenwetsuits.com
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com

sdmike

Aug 27, 08 7:21

Post #13 of 27 (520 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [GregX] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't think you have to go that extreme.

Mass Start Swim->enter transition->line up in chute exiting transition->bikes released at 2 second intervals. All other rules apply. Yeah it would be frustrating to be waiting in line to get released, but at least the bike would be off to a fair start.

Fleck

Aug 27, 08 7:40

Post #14 of 27 (490 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [NGMN] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It's not that hard to find competent guys with motor cycles who have their Sunday afternoons free.

With respect, you are wrong.

This is actually the biggest limiter to more offcials out on the course in the big IM races - not enough Motos. If you talk to Jimm R., it's his #1 challenge. Sometimes Moto's promised never show up and then you have offcials who were supposed to be out on the course, chilling at Transition for the whole race!

Steve Fleck
steve@nineteenwetsuits.com
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com

Meowelk

Aug 27, 08 8:41

Post #15 of 27 (445 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [NGMN] [In reply to]	Can't Post

To expand on one of NGMN's ideas, I think I've seen someone else suggest this before-

Add to the timing chip (another?) RF emitter, a sensor and a beeper - the chip can tell when it is closer than the draft limit to another chip, and starts beeping. (gives the athlete warning to pass or back off. I guess it also warns the person about to be passed!) Anytime the beeper goes for more than 20 sec (gives the passed rider time to get out of zone), a penalty is recorded? hmm, not sure how this would work fairly - how do you determine which rider gets the penalty?
Perhaps the sensor would be automatically switched on as it heads out of t1, and off as it passes over the mat to T2. (don't really want it beeping during hte swim and run.) Or maybe instead of incorporating the device into the timing chips, this new device is attached to the bike, not the athlete.

This only works on loop courses where the athletes don't double back on the same road, I guess.

Anyway, I like the idea of a watch sized device that would track cheating by drafting. You'd still need marshalls for blocking, etc.

Freespeed

Aug 27, 08 9:18

Post #16 of 27 (404 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [Blakebeck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It has been mentioned on other threads, but I think video is a real deterrent. Marshals could easily carry a small video camera and film obvious cases of drafting and the race organisers should publish the worst offenders.

It is too easy for people after the case to explain their drafting penalty away as a minor misdemeanor, but if they are shown on video to be sucking wheel for 5 minutes then it should shame them into reassessing their future race plans. Every single person I know who has had a draft penalty has explained it away as the official misreading an innocent situation.

Lazy Ben

Aug 27, 08 9:59

Post #17 of 27 (358 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [Freespeed] [In reply to]	Can't Post

These days you could put a camera on the front and back of each pro bike, set them to come on at random times and inspect the pictures while the run was happening. No real disadvantage if everyone has to carry one. If there's a bike in the rear view, they get a penalty, if there's a bike in the front view, you do...

Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Flanagan

Aug 27, 08 10:19

Post #18 of 27 (327 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [Blakebeck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Why should NA Sports or WTC care about the pro race?

2009 Goals: Cat 1 for Road Cycling, Pro Triathlon

Here's My Blog...

Sasquatch

Aug 27, 08 10:26

Post #19 of 27 (315 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [Blakebeck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Why do all of the marshals have to be on motorbikes? Why can't you have a marshall and a spotter with binoculars standing off the course on a section where they can see a decent stretch? They could take down the numbers of the blatant drafters and those riding in tight packs and have a moto up the road doll out the penalties.

monty

Aug 27, 08 10:31

Post #20 of 27 (306 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [Flanagan] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Why should NA Sports or WTC care about the pro race?\\

Because of all the negative publicity they get afterwards.. If I were them, I would axe the pro division altogether, no more problems. The sheep of the triathon world would still flock to fill up their races, and who really gives a shit about drafting there?? Except for Dev and a few others, most people at these races, fall right into the lines, without a 2nd thought to it. It is all they have ever known in triathlon..

The price money at these races hasn't really changed in over 20 years, so pros really can't make a living anyway, so by eliminating the pro race, it would open up the schedule for a lot of RD's that do care about pros, to get some decent fields..Ironman is worse than ITU, less money for more distance, only the Ironman guys do not have a gun to their heads to do the circut like the ITU guys(olympics, national team selections, and NGB money). SO at least the ITU guys have a compelling reason for doing their races, and the money there has improved over the years there.

They would still need pros for Hawaii, and their national coverage, and the pros would still line up in the 100's, to enter for 10 places of prize money...

I say stop complaining about a 20+ year problem, that the organizers really don't care about, and go somewhere else. Otherwise you know what to expect, so either join the groups, or just be happy with your finisher T-shirts and an honest time..Need to find that funny graphic of the guy beating the dead horse......

JTRock

Aug 27, 08 10:50

Post #21 of 27 (275 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [monty] [In reply to]	Can't Post

But we can't get rid of the pro race because there are more "pros" in the age groups then there are pros in the pro race. Hell, how many races have age group prize money these days? Maybe it's time I downgrade and start making some money.

Now, where's that definition of amateur? I think it says something about not earning money? ;)

Short of strapping a GPS on every athlete and busting people by satellite I have no idea how we can police drafting. I hate the idea but my philosophy has morphed over the years to a position of "drafting rules are fluid and depend on what everyone else is doing on that day". If the entire group is drafting I am not going to simply let them ride away because I feel compelled to honesty.

At something like 70.3 Worlds I think all we can do is disallow aero bars and call it a draft legal race.

To be honest, I am sick of the whole thing. Nobody adhears to the rules, most athletes will get away with as much as they can and if you are going to make a living at this you simply have to follow the cheaters lead.

Jimmy
Jimmy Archer
Pro Triathlete/Coach/Freelance Writer
http://jimmyarcherracing.blogspot.com
www.jimmyarcher.com

TJ56

Aug 27, 08 11:23

Post #22 of 27 (236 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

This is actually the biggest limiter to more offcials out on the course in the big IM races - not enough Motos. If you talk to Jimm R., it's his #1 challenge. Sometimes Moto's promised never show up and then you have offcials who were supposed to be out on the course, chilling at Transition for the whole race!

Put the officials on bikes! Shouldn't be too hard to find some elite bikers who would officiate a race if offered preferred registration for following year or some other stipend. Have them stagger started so that they are embedded through the masses. They could be either marked or cloaked, or some of both. Its a cheap alternative using existing technology.

xraycharlie

Aug 27, 08 12:36

Post #23 of 27 (194 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [TJ56] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Or why not a combo of this, and stationary officials observing from areas with good vantage points? If motorcycles are difficult to arrange, logistically, these could be cost effective solutions. Sorta like unmarked cars and speed traps.

Anything that made competitors believe that they had a higher likelihood of getting caught would probably improve things.

Bigringonly

Aug 27, 08 12:47

Post #24 of 27 (182 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [TJ56] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

In the early 90's a race director in the area Philly did exactly that. Got a couple local cycling teams to monitor the course.
Had no idea a race marshal was coming up behind you. Plus - no warnings! - Your warning was in the pre-race meeting!

devashish_paul

Aug 27, 08 13:02

Post #25 of 27 (163 views)

Re: Elite Draft Zone and Rule Ideas [monty] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Let's change the format of Ironman....2.4 mile swim, 6.2 mile run, 112 mile bike, 20 mile run....problem would likely be instantly solved...I realize this will not happen, however, it might be interesting to try in a half Ironman (at half the distances) :-)

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