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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage?

 

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ride2eat

Nov 6, 09 16:57

Post #1 of 42 (2367 views)
Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? Can't Post

In an effort to take the bend out of my T2's and get them flat, i turned them sideways or inwards rather. The net effect of that did flatten the bar ends, but it puts my hands closer together. In an unexpected 'twist' it actually turned out to be incredibly comfortable as my two hands basically turned into one.....they join figers sort of. My elbows are virtually in the same position, but does this create any kind of a DISadvantage? If it's an advantage that is fine and bonus time, but I don't want to do it if it's creating a disadvantage.




hgrong

Nov 6, 09 17:01

Post #2 of 42 (2352 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [ride2eat] [In reply to] Can't Post

The difference, if there is one, is probably impossible to predict without a wind tunnel (or a lot of free time, a PM, and patience for the same loop of road).

I say, if it is comfortable, go with it.


(This post was edited by hgrong on Nov 6, 09 17:02)


draketriathlon

Nov 6, 09 17:02

Post #3 of 42 (2351 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [ride2eat] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
In an effort to take the bend out of my T2's and get them flat, i turned them sideways or inwards rather. The net effect of that did flatten the bar ends, but it puts my hands closer together. In an unexpected 'twist' it actually turned out to be incredibly comfortable as my two hands basically turned into one.....they join figers sort of. My elbows are virtually in the same position, but does this create any kind of a DISadvantage? If it's an advantage that is fine and bonus time, but I don't want to do it if it's creating a disadvantage.


The tunnel knows... no one else here does...


cbritri

Nov 6, 09 17:09

Post #4 of 42 (2328 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [ride2eat] [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with what others have said so far, but Dave Zabreski (sp?) has a similar hand position.


Tom A.

Nov 6, 09 17:58

Post #5 of 42 (2273 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [ride2eat] [In reply to] Can't Post

 
If anything, I would think it would have lower drag...that's how I used to run my T2+ bars as well...but, with them also tilted up a fair amount ;-)


John Cobb

Nov 6, 09 18:21

Post #6 of 42 (2242 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [ride2eat] [In reply to] Can't Post

The aero difference will be small but I would think better. This is nothing compared to the bad aero from you brake levers sitting straight into the wind.
New Blog - www.johncobbresearch.com


ride2eat

Nov 6, 09 18:24

Post #7 of 42 (2232 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [John Cobb] [In reply to] Can't Post

Holy smokes I got a comment from John Cobb....my week is made!

Your saddle is.....shall we say......UNBELIEVABLE.....thank you!

As my comment will attest to my lack of tweaking knowledge....how do I get my 'brake air dam' out of the wind.....cut the bar ends maybe to get them pointed down? I have no idea....thanks for any further advice.


jackmott

Nov 6, 09 19:01

Post #8 of 42 (2178 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [ride2eat] [In reply to] Can't Post

someone on here who has spent time in the wind tunnel said cutting the upturns on the visions isn't worth the time

but that is assuming you are using the vision brakes

which, would get most of your brake air dam out of the wind anyway =)

In Reply To:
Holy smokes I got a comment from John Cobb....my week is made!

Your saddle is.....shall we say......UNBELIEVABLE.....thank you!

As my comment will attest to my lack of tweaking knowledge....how do I get my 'brake air dam' out of the wind.....cut the bar ends maybe to get them pointed down? I have no idea....thanks for any further advice.
----
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BMAN

Nov 6, 09 19:57

Post #9 of 42 (2109 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [jackmott] [In reply to] Can't Post

That is why my Vision basebar/Hed aerobar set up will be getting some new Vision levers very soon. Not the most high end set up but I would put is as one of the most aero set-ups that you can get and for not very much money. My HED/Vision aerobar set up only ran me $140 complete and everything was new. Now that is aero on a budget.

Aero & Light is Right

SLC 2.0


Bell Head

Nov 6, 09 20:22

Post #10 of 42 (2081 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [jackmott] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
but that is assuming you are using the vision brakes

which, would get most of your brake air dam out of the wind anyway =)

Interesting, because I have the same base bar/brake setup. I've long thought of getting the vision brake levers, but they look more dangerous than an unplugged bar end.

I figure, I can keep in the Cane Creek levers for training, but swap in the Vision levers for races.


ride2eat

Nov 7, 09 5:03

Post #11 of 42 (1926 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [BMAN] [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it that the end of the Vision base bar is turned up that makes it less aero or the actual brake lever. Having never touched the Vision lever I can't say, but looking at it I feel as though it would stick up as well? Guess I would have to see it mounted to know.


JoeO

Nov 7, 09 8:12

Post #12 of 42 (1800 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [ride2eat] [In reply to] Can't Post

If that's more comfortable for you, that's good. You should probably stick with it. But you didn't really take the bend out (aerodynamically speaking) in any way that I can see. You just moved it from the vertical plane to the horizontal one.


The_Mickstar

Nov 7, 09 13:58

Post #13 of 42 (1664 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [JoeO] [In reply to] Can't Post

I think he meant that he took the rise out of the extensions (to lower his hands).

Steve

Cervélo Mafia
member since June 2006


Ryon

Nov 7, 09 15:13

Post #14 of 42 (1606 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [ride2eat] [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to race with my hands right together in a similar setup to that.

What I found is that, if I actually have my hands a little apart it causes my shoulders to rotate inward and makes it easier to "scrunch" my shoulders and keep my head lower:



Granted, this is highly personal, but it's worth looking at.
-----------------------
My Science Blog: LC Giraffe
What Would Jens Do?


sharprace

Nov 7, 09 15:53

Post #15 of 42 (1561 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [ride2eat] [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that comfort would be paramount to the slight change in aerodynamics that it would make. If you're more comfortable, you're able to go harder... so you'll be faster!!


paddy-o

Nov 7, 09 16:49

Post #16 of 42 (1523 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [ride2eat] [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember seeing in the late 90's, at Ironman Canada, a number of Japanese athletes whose aerobars consisted of only one bar, i.e. both hands were wrapped around the same bar. Weird looking, for sure.


1406racer

Nov 7, 09 17:11

Post #17 of 42 (1502 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [ride2eat] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
In an effort to take the bend out of my T2's and get them flat, i turned them sideways or inwards rather. The net effect of that did flatten the bar ends, but it puts my hands closer together. In an unexpected 'twist' it actually turned out to be incredibly comfortable as my two hands basically turned into one.....they join figers sort of. My elbows are virtually in the same position, but does this create any kind of a DISadvantage? If it's an advantage that is fine and bonus time, but I don't want to do it if it's creating a disadvantage.



Dynamic Du

Nov 7, 09 19:23

Post #18 of 42 (1447 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [John Cobb] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
The aero difference will be small but I would think better. This is nothing compared to the bad aero from you brake levers sitting straight into the wind.
I'm seeking clarification on this comment. Are you saying (or does anybody else have an interpretation) that the aerobars with the "hood" sections upturned where the break levers are attached are not as aerodynamic as the ones that extend straight out??

Most companies have a bend in the wide/hood extension section that points up in the air, I don't like it but it's hard to get a set without it.


John Cobb

Nov 7, 09 19:42

Post #19 of 42 (1429 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [Dynamic Du] [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe that the upturned bars are not as efficient but riders generally like to have the feel so when stopping your hands don't slip off. I suppose you would want some numbers so I looked up some, doing a test with base bars mounted on a 56 kinda' aero [2004] frame with parts on it. B/R is Blackwell Research carbon levers
Drag with upturned ends, B/R levers - 1249gr. @ 0 yaw
Upturned ends , Vision levers - 1192gr @ 0 yaw
Flat ends w/ B/R levers flat - 1155 gr. @ 0 yaw
I believe you can cut most of the current bars if desired.
New Blog - www.johncobbresearch.com


Dynamic Du

Nov 7, 09 20:01

Post #20 of 42 (1411 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [John Cobb] [In reply to] Can't Post

)
In Reply To:
I believe that the upturned bars are not as efficient but riders generally like to have the feel so when stopping your hands don't slip off. I suppose you would want some numbers so I looked up some, doing a test with base bars mounted on a 56 kinda' aero [2004] frame with parts on it. B/R is Blackwell Research carbon levers
Drag with upturned ends, B/R levers - 1249gr. @ 0 yaw
Upturned ends , Vision levers - 1192gr @ 0 yaw
Flat ends w/ B/R levers flat - 1155 gr. @ 0 yaw
I believe you can cut most of the current bars if desired.
Thanks so much Mr Cobb. This stuff is gold. I'm cutting my bars for comfort (don't like the upturned ends) but now I'm even more interested in cutting them.

From my calculations from stuff Coggan posted a few days ago about grams of drag converted to seconds ( 0.1 lbs (50 g) of drag (at 30 mph) = 0.5 s/km = 5 W = 0.005 m^2 CdA = 0.0005 Crr that would appear that the 94 grams of drag (possibly more if you have Vision levers wich I have) saved over say a 40km course would be around 40 seconds saved IF at zero yaw. I would imagine higher yaw angles would lesson this, but even so, it is basically certain to be faster.

now where's that hacksaw......


moneydog59

Nov 8, 09 4:03

Post #21 of 42 (1342 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [Dynamic Du] [In reply to] Can't Post

use a piper cutter, it will give you a cleaner cut...
"one eye doubles my eyesight, so things don't look half bad" John Hiatt


Tom A.

Nov 8, 09 6:54

Post #22 of 42 (1274 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [moneydog59] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
use a piper cutter, it will give you a cleaner cut...

With a pipe cutter, it's hard to get as close as possible to the bend. I prefer to just pop a hose clamp on there and use it as a cutting guide for either a hacksaw or a dremel.

Just make sure you cut on the right side of the hose clamp!...don't ask why I emphasize that :-(


jeremyb

Nov 8, 09 7:05

Post #23 of 42 (1254 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [Ryon] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
I used to race with my hands right together in a similar setup to that.

What I found is that, if I actually have my hands a little apart it causes my shoulders to rotate inward and makes it easier to "scrunch" my shoulders and keep my head lower:



Granted, this is highly personal, but it's worth looking at.


The only difference here is the hand positions? No elbow width or pad height, etc?

Pretty crazy, thanks.

--------------------------------
Plus One Lap Cyclocross ||| JeremyBurlingame.com


BMAN

Nov 8, 09 7:17

Post #24 of 42 (1242 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [Dynamic Du] [In reply to] Can't Post

I would say use a cutting guide and a hacksaw. I have a Park cutting guide that I use to cut everything nice and square. Works fantasic on aerobar extensions and basebars.

Aero & Light is Right

SLC 2.0


jeremyb

Nov 8, 09 8:31

Post #25 of 42 (1182 views)
Re: Does this bar setup create an aerodynamic DISadvantage? [BMAN] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
I would say use a cutting guide and a hacksaw. I have a Park cutting guide that I use to cut everything nice and square. Works fantasic on aerobar extensions and basebars.

Yep, agree with both Tom and Bman. I've used a Park steering tube cutting guide and it works great-----can get much closer to the bend that with a pipe cutter, and it leaves a clean straight cut.



--------------------------------
Plus One Lap Cyclocross ||| JeremyBurlingame.com

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