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Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater?
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burner
Nov 11, 07 18:38
Post #101 of 143 (915 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [sig]
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I agree. The only reason I signed up this year was with all the issues last year that I read about that they are sure to correct it.
They are smart business folks, surely they would want to make sure that it gains a good reputation so it can continue to grow. At least thats what I thought (or hoped).
Unfortunately they don't seem to care about this at all, it will still fill up next year either way, probably a really strong top 20% but the remainder may roll down even further than this year.
Diana
Nov 11, 07 18:41
Post #102 of 143 (913 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [sig]
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"did you notice that that the leading bike for the W35-39 was also the fastest women's bike split? In fact, only Julie Dibens would have placed in the top four of the W35-39."
Yes, I noticed. I also talked to a guy who had a girl (who won her age group) sitting in the pack complaining to him about the 2nd and 3rd place girls in her age group drafting. He found it quite amusing, as she was doing the exact same thing.
Millco
Nov 11, 07 18:43
Post #103 of 143 (912 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [sig]
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They use penalty tents along the course and in transition, they do not stand the participants down.
Wow, that is a fast bike split.
h2ofun
Nov 11, 07 18:51
Post #104 of 143 (901 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Fleck]
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Steve, I continue to think about the folks complaining and what I have experienced first hand.
When I have come on ST and started the rules should be followed, what has happened?
I have been personally attacked and called Mr. Black and white or rule Nazi or even made special books
for ST folks. If I had become an official, and given out the drafting penalities I saw, do you think ST
folks who say great job!! Nope, it was the personal Nazi attacks! And, what do you think would happen
to the customer base if WTC DQed a bunch of folks for drafting? They would lose many more customer from this,
than the few from ST that will not go back because they have it. One needs to deal with this issue from
business, not emotion.
When I talk about Ipods are illegal, or outside assistance, etc., go back and read the comments!
I have had multiple run in's with RD's about the wet suit rule or ipods and again, when I bring it up here, I get attacked.
So, again, ST has a lot of two faced people, IMO, based on past posts folks can read.
But, as I say, after having many years seeing first hand how RD's work, and officials work, it is just more fun
to realize this is ALL FOR FUN, and leave the ego's at home!!
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
PennState
Nov 11, 07 18:58
Post #105 of 143 (889 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun]
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2 thoughts...
1. H2O fun likes to argue with a lot of people :)
2. Clearwater sounds like it is not a really fun race to do if you don't like drafting.
Columbia
Eagleman
Lake Placid
Fleck
Nov 11, 07 19:19
Post #106 of 143 (874 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun]
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Dave,
1. I note that there are not these endless threads about drafting after IM Wisco! So clearly the course profile has a significant impact on how much drafting you are going to see. It does not take a heck of a lot of thought to figure this out.
2. I agree this is an old problem. That's why a mentioned my Hilton Head experience from nearly 20 years ago!!! You would think that people would clue in. There really should be no surprise and shock. It's really simple and straightforward: 2000 people, evenly matched field, flat course = tons of drafting. It's been this way for a LONG time. And you know what - until something dramatic is done, it's not going to get any better.
3. Regarding the Charlie Crawford experinence. There really are three kinds of people in these races. The people that are blatantly drafting to gain and adavantage. The people who are inadvertatntly drafting because at times there are too many people in too little time and too small a piece of road. It's more about physics than anything else with this group. And finally you have the people that really don't care - not that they are trying to gain advantage, it's just that they are in for a long day. They trained with a group of friends and they hooked up with some friendly people out on the ride on race day that they want to share the misery/challenge with. It was this last group that seemed to cause the most grief with the Crawford rule enforcement - why penalize and toss out a ton of 14+ hr IM athletes? I get it with the rules, but who REALLY gains from this?
Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck
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h2ofun
Nov 11, 07 19:48
Post #107 of 143 (853 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Fleck]
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Steve, I agree with you.
Now, I have proposed many times that one way to fix the issue is to have, lets say, an expert AG waves.
These are the folks who are going for podium spots. These are the ones you start out first, with enough
space between them. These are the ones you put the marshalls on. For the rest, keep it safe, but
thats it. Again, many simple solutions. We just have to understand that the sport has really really changed from the
small group of hard cores that started this. Rules and intent that may have worked, or tried to work, 20 years ago
may not be what is best for the business today.
But, nothing will change. Next year we will have the exact same threads, which I think one person already posted
for 2008.
I was just telling the wife in the spa that I had thought for a few moments about going to clearwater. Then as I thought
about it, I told her why would I spend thousand of dollars, and spend many days going to a location that I know will
be nothing be a long, boring, draft ridden race? If there are not hills, I am really not interested. So, will save my money
and try to do well at the Auburn Long course Duathlon national championships on May 18th. (And, maybe I will
get another worlds spot) Now, that will kick my butt, and willhave NO drafting!! I will not podium, but who cares,
as Chad says, it is the challenge of me against the course is all that matters.
6 hours of hell.
I have heard and talked enough with Charlie, that I know he really really cares about trying to put on a fair, clean race.
But, the RD is 100% in control of what there race will be like. The RD is 100% in control on if any marshalls are paid to come
(they get expenses covered), or how many. So again, it ALL starts with the RD!!
I also remember after getting off the motor bike at Vineman last year and a racer running up to an official that gave him
a penalty and chewing him out big time. I thought to myself, is this what I wanted to get myself into, trying to help
and getting attacked. Na, am too old for politics anymore.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
pokey
Nov 11, 07 21:28
Post #108 of 143 (837 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit]
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WTC obviously knows they have a problem with this venue, if they continue to hold the race there it will prove that their only interest is grabbing the cash. Apart from the pro race no one has any respect for the race results and this looks bad on the sport. I have never entered a qualifying race for this series but I am sure that if I did qualify I would never go, too this race or IMF.
I will never forget my frustration of racing in the largest 1/2 IM in BC a few years ago where they had over 600 people doing a 20 km loop, I got caught in a 10-15 person pack and it was basically impossible to get away. Everyone knew they were drafting and these were people that finished up in the top 20 overall, I made note of their names and took great pleasure in passing a few of them at IMC where they had no one to hide, I really wanted to say something but why waste the mental energy, I really like the idea of having peoples names on their numbers as this will lead to people remembering the cheaters names.
I now choose races where the terrain in very hilly, but it's funny most people don't want to do these kind of races, instead they go to places like Florida.
The problem with cheating is that if you let a few people get away with it then everyone else feels like it's OK or that they have to do it too keep up. I guess drafting is like society in general these days, no one has any respect for rules anymore.
The only solution is to have IM races run by a non-profit organization, limit IM fields to 1500 and have people have to qualify, like in Austrailia.
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Bigringonly
Nov 12, 07 5:03
Post #109 of 143 (798 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit]
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A tap of the brake and a slight swerve usually remedies the situation!
Axel
Nov 12, 07 5:59
Post #110 of 143 (772 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Fleck]
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Can someone remind me of where WTC is based? ... where the owner of Ironman lives?
Axel
In Reply To:
I won't ever return to Florida...guaranteed.
And so you shouldn't if you feel that way, but don't just post it here, you and everyone else that is up in arms like this should be emailing the WTC non-stop. If they have any sense, they will do something about it.
ChadJ
Nov 12, 07 6:07
Post #111 of 143 (765 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit]
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I don't think they really care because it is all about the CHEDDAR $$$$.
pokey
Nov 12, 07 6:33
Post #112 of 143 (746 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Diana]
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"did you notice that that the leading bike for the W35-39 was also the fastest women's bike split? In fact, only Julie Dibens would have placed in the top four of the W35-39."
Yes, I noticed. I also talked to a guy who had a girl (who won her age group) sitting in the pack complaining to him about the 2nd and 3rd place girls in her age group drafting. He found it quite amusing, as she was doing the exact same thing.[/reply
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marvarnett
Nov 12, 07 6:39
Post #113 of 143 (737 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [ChadJ]
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Being out there on Saturday, I can tell you that there was drafting. Was it more than any other race with a flat fast course and people of relatively equal ability? NO.
Were the officials out there giving penalties? YES
I saw 4 officials roll by me and I personally saw 6 penalties given out. When I passed the penalty tents they were FULL of people. When I say full I mean people were standing outside the tent because there was no room under the tent. They did a good job in my opinion.
What I think they also did a good job of was recognizing the blantant drafters and the person sitting 5 meters off to prevent anyone from jumping in the "gap". On that course, it was difficult to not yo-yo and be technically inside the draft box. If you were sitting on a wheel, at least where I was on the course, you got busted.
There were many times were I surged off the front, got passed by a pace line and then had to resurge. That was just the way I played it. Was I inside the 7 meter box at times? HELL YES! Did I sit on someone's wheel holding on for dear life? NO.
The problem with putting even more marshals on course is that when they are "observing" a pack, a pack forms behind them. This happened several times. Just the way it plays out. I think they did a good job of reparing some of the issues from last year.
Is it perfect? No. Are they working on it? YES
For position reference, I was in the M30-34 wave.
Coach for Endurance Concepts
Sponsored by: All3Sports, Brooks & Wicked Fast Nutrition
Martin C
Nov 12, 07 6:44
Post #114 of 143 (728 views)
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gadzooks
Nov 12, 07 6:59
Post #115 of 143 (712 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Martin C]
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...there was drafting. Was it more than any other race with a flat fast course and people of relatively equal ability? NO.
When I passed the penalty tents they were FULL of people... people were standing outside the tent because there was no room..
Strange observations when put together.
Strange observation or just a fact that a lot of the races he goes to there is a lot of drafting. To me I see it as a good thing that the tents were full on the course. It mean's they were trying.... They can't get everyone, it's simply imposible. Unfortunately there are fools out there that think drafting is a good thing.
Nice meeting you this weekend Dan. You had a great race! Congrats.....
As for me I stated it already on another thread. I was also M30-34 and way at the back of the field from the start. I rode through almost the entire field to get to the front and didn't see but maybe 2 guys that I would call sucking wheels. The rest of the groups were at least 7 meters if not more. The two guys we saw got an ear full from the draft legal riders around them...
Rockhopper1
Nov 12, 07 7:08
Post #116 of 143 (701 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit]
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I was there watching the race. Huge packs again. I was not expecting anything else. If you want to race fair, go race there, try to set a PR on a super fast course and don't worry about placing well. If you want to place well there, you are probably going to have to draft.
Folks on my team:
The Bike Shop Glen Ellyn
http://www.trainingbible.com
Martin C
Nov 12, 07 7:12
Post #117 of 143 (699 views)
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Fleck
Nov 12, 07 8:11
Post #118 of 143 (656 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Axel]
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Key contacts at the WTC can be found here:
http://www.ironman.com/corporate/contacts
This is where ALL of this commentary about the 70.3 Championships and any other issues with the WTC should go. On ST, it's just going around in circles and not going anywhere. Email away!!!
Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck
M~
Nov 12, 07 8:21
Post #119 of 143 (635 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Fleck]
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Just don't expect a response. :)
*****----------------------------------------*****
Interviewer: What's your prediction for the fight?
Clubber Lang: My prediction?
Interviewer: Yes, your prediction.
Clubber Lang: Pain!
summitt
Nov 12, 07 8:23
Post #120 of 143 (632 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Diana]
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In Reply To:
"did you notice that that the leading bike for the W35-39 was also the fastest women's bike split? In fact, only Julie Dibens would have placed in the top four of the W35-39."
Yes, I noticed. I also talked to a guy who had a girl (who won her age group) sitting in the pack complaining to him about the 2nd and 3rd place girls in her age group drafting. He found it quite amusing, as she was doing the exact same thing.
What I want to know is how to train so I can go from a 2:38 at Eagleman to a 2:11 in a few months? Who is her coach? What is she eating? How is she training? Powercranks? Cervelo? Powertap? What is the secret? I must be missing something beacuase I'm lucky to improve a few minutes on a 1/2 Ironman bike from year to year.
Fleck
Nov 12, 07 8:27
Post #121 of 143 (621 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Markus Mucus]
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Just don't expect a response.
Indeed, but if the 200+ people here on ST that are not to happy about what's going on send emails to the WTC, I suspect that, that would get some notice and perhaps some action. ST is a great forum, but stuff like this just tends to go round and round here. You need to contact the people that are actually in control.
Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck
Carl Spackler
Nov 12, 07 8:28
Post #122 of 143 (619 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Fleck]
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Good work Steve. So for everyone that's going to spend the time posting about drafting at Clearwater here (or any other race), why not spend the time to paste comments into an email and als send to WTC? Either they'll hear it and do something or they won't.
http://www.ironman.com/corporate/contacts
__________________________________________________
MCHammers
Nov 12, 07 8:30
Post #123 of 143 (610 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Fleck]
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Also there is for IMFL there was a post race survey sent out, mine was in my junk folder. Fill that out and add comments in the end on what you think about drafting. Just posting here is not enough, although I'm sure that a few WTC folks are reading...
MC
www.mctriguy.blogspot.com
M~
Nov 12, 07 8:32
Post #124 of 143 (610 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Fleck]
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What I think is really needed is to have the tri magazines ask some really tough questions of the RD's and of some of the racers that are racing the courses. As Dan has pointed out, Florida is what it is, however, getting some pressure/bad press from outside sources such as the Triathlete rag that comes out or other magazines may actually make them do something. Bad press is usually the best way to get something done.
*****----------------------------------------*****
Interviewer: What's your prediction for the fight?
Clubber Lang: My prediction?
Interviewer: Yes, your prediction.
Clubber Lang: Pain!
trinow
Nov 12, 07 8:51
Post #125 of 143 (584 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Markus Mucus]
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In Reply To:
What I think is really needed is to have the tri magazines ask some really tough questions
don't hold your breath...we can't even get real news orgs to do that.
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