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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater?

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kdw

Nov 11, 07 6:53

Post #76 of 143 (1444 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [zipprider757] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"I cant believe spots were so hard to come by this year."

At Timberman the slots in M35-39 rolled down past 5:10. (44th place in the AG) That means 35 people passed before the 9 slots were filled. The fastest
guy in the AG took his spot, but the second spot didn't get taken until the 12th place finisher at 4:50.

It would be interesting to see how many people did both years.

tritbay

Nov 11, 07 7:05

Post #77 of 143 (1434 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [kdw] [In reply to]	Can't Post

For whatever its worth, I was a volunteer in transition yesterday, wet suits stripping and bike handling. And I did try to pay attention to the amount of riders coming in off the bike together. And yes there were several times when some pretty large groups came in basically together, but was a mix of male and female. And there was a steady group of participants in the penalty box. But with that said, and I think TAI mentioned earlier, the congestion starts with the swim. We(6 stations) stripped wetsuits almost non-stop for close to 45 minutes when the bulk of the swimmers were coming and it seems to me that naturally occurring packs are already started.Unless you start holding people in T1 for 30-40 sec or more before they enter the bike course i'm not sure how you stop this. Now it is up to the contestant to understand the rules and abide by them which seems to be the problem. You have to play with integrity most do and there are those who are going to bend the rules for everything they can get. It was a great day I had a lot of fun. I'm sorry that the rule bending is spoiling the fun for some of you all.

gavnunns

Nov 11, 07 7:18

Post #78 of 143 (1424 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Markus Mucus] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hahah, nod, its the act itself that is called drafting not the potential penalty.
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airborne73

Nov 11, 07 14:08

Post #79 of 143 (1355 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I was in the 70.3 this weekend and saw three groups go by that were 20 thick and nothing in
front of or behind and trekking at about 29 mph, 2/3 were fighting for position to stay in the pack.
I qualified in Cancun and if you want to avoid races with packs, do not do that one. With the course
doubling back on itself, the packs are 50 riders thick.
Clearwater is a great venue for the race and this year the bike course director found as many hills
as he could in Pinellas county to keep it fairly honest. How arrogant can you be to say you would not
do the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP race if you qualified?

(This post was edited by airborne73 on Nov 11, 07 14:12)

Fleck

Nov 11, 07 14:15

Post #80 of 143 (1349 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [airborne73] [In reply to]	Can't Post

How arrogant can you be to say you would not do the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP race if you qualified?

Much to the surprise of many here and elsewhere, many people actually take this option. I know a number of people that don't bother to go to Clearwater or Hawaii for these "Championship" races - note the quotation marks. I qualified for IMH 11 years in a row and I only went twice. My partner has qualified 6 times for IMH and never gone( Actually we were going to go this year, but a foot injury for her put an end to that). Bottom line, not everyone goes for one reason or another.

Given the nature of the 70.3 race in Clearwater, I would not choose to go if I qualified either.

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

TripleThreat

Nov 11, 07 14:15

Post #81 of 143 (1349 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [slowguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I can't believe you actually had to explain that to another adult.

I spend my days dealing with elementary students that seemingly share that same line of thinking (i.e., It ain't wrong if I don't get caught, If other people are doing it, it must not be wrong, Someone else was disruptive, so I shouldn't get punished for being disruptive, etc).

Amazingly, the difference between them and some grown adults is roughly 80 pounds of bodyweight. Disappointing.

We may disagree on whether a spoecific situation is a penalty (safe/out, holding/not-holding, hoooking/not-hooking, low-blow/on-the-beltline, etc), but I can't believe we have grown adults saying that a rule isn't broken if one doesn't get caught. I'm hoping they don't feel the same way about filing taxes, "shopping" at the grocery store, driving, etc.

This situation just stuns me, although as many times as we've had it, and the lengths folks go to justify their misconduct, should no longer be stunning.
=======================
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Each evening offers judgement. --

burner

Nov 11, 07 14:31

Post #82 of 143 (1338 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit] [In reply to]	Can't Post

they can but for whatever reason don't want to stop the drafting. One marshall on the course in the first 10 miles, nothing for the remainder. Where they were really needed was the 2nd half of the bike when people were latching onto passing packs. From the results one of the top 3 W30-34 was in that group and at least one in the top 10 M35-39.

In fairness you can't completely blame the WTC or the marshalls, the cheaters have to be responsible too. The cheaters are a pretty diverse group men/women, South African, German, French, USA (from names on trisuits). I didn't realize until yesterday how much harder on the legs it is to be surrounded by this, pass / repass and its not possible to ride away from it. I am 2:2x bike at Vineman/Ralphs so 2:15 here is about normal.

I won't be back to this mess.

(This post was edited by burner on Nov 11, 07 14:32)

Kellykellykelly

Nov 11, 07 14:35

Post #83 of 143 (1334 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [burner] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I saw on a video a pack of pro men led by Potts.Was anyone there to see if the pros were riding in packs too? men and women? Seems very much like a race where you have to be a great swimmer and runner to do well there. This was discussed in a recent thread re; Kona. Lisa B and Desiree missed the Kona express. LC racing is getting very much like ITU.

Tai

Nov 11, 07 15:38

Post #84 of 143 (1292 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [rocklinwoody] [In reply to]	Can't Post

not sure if i did the right thing but not sure what else could have been done. on the crash topic, there were three crashes that involved people I knew personally... A pro friend in the top 10 got clipped by a car, another friend was in a crash caused by trying to slide around a large group of riders and being forced into a traffic cone (best part is that as he lay there a bit out of it with a broken clavicle another rider who went down asked him if they could take his front wheel and before he could figure out what was going on they swapped it and rode off with it...), and another guy who said he had been pushed in a big group and went down hard... these were just people that I knew
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Fleck

Nov 11, 07 16:40

Post #85 of 143 (1259 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Tai] [In reply to]	Can't Post

another rider who went down asked him if they could take his front wheel and before he could figure out what was going on they swapped it and rode off with it...

Unbelieveable. These guys have been watching too many Tour de France race videos.

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

Diana

Nov 11, 07 17:14

Post #86 of 143 (1236 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Tai] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"If I had trained and peaked for that race to end up in that situation I would have been pretty pissed... "

Guess how pissed I am?! I was in top form for this race and had full intentions of being on the podium. Mistakenly, I thought the race changes were going to substantially reduce the drafting problems of last year. Since I am very strong on the bike, my entire race went right out the window when I watched a half dozen chicks in my age group sitting 2 feet off of the wheels of male pelotons going by me. It was not impossible to avoid drafting...It just completely screwed your race if you chose not to cheat compared to all of the cheaters in your age group. Where are people's ethics? Why should a cheating bastard have a huge advantage over a person who is racing fair and who prepared meticulously for their race...and spent thousands of dollars to get there, etc? Damn I'm pissed...still.

Tai

Nov 11, 07 17:19

Post #87 of 143 (1227 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Diana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

that sucks:P yeah, I had a friend this year who was super gung ho about training his ass off to head to clearwater but he's a midpack swimmer at best and we ended up talking him out of it and instead he's doing Wildflower next year. He hates draft packs and like you said in a lot of situations there, more based off your wave start and luck than anything riding completely clean either means riding incredibly stupid wattage wise or just saying screw the race and letting people pass you left and right...

I heard Timberman is a cool race too...

I gotta remember to ask my buddy with the missing wheel if he ever got it back:) Honestly can't remember and since he spent the afternoon in the hospital I remember he hadn't collected it yet after the race. He thought it was pretty funny so at least he was in high spirits.

Congrats on your impressive race prep though, hopefully you can find another race shortly after to take your aggression out at:)
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For ordering info, please email me at tai@taigraphx.com, PMs are great but please use them for ST stuff only:) thanks!

trinow

Nov 11, 07 17:22

Post #88 of 143 (1225 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Diana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

. Where are people's ethics? Why should a cheating bastard have a huge advantage over a person who is racing fair and who prepared meticulously for their race...and spent thousands of dollars to get there, etc? Damn I'm pissed...still.

careful, you may get labeled a troll for that thinking.

Fleck

Nov 11, 07 17:24

Post #89 of 143 (1218 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Diana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Mistakenly, I thought the race changes were going to substantially reduce the drafting problems of last year.

I am sorry that you race dis not go as you had planned/hoped. I am not trying to be funny here nor make fun of you, only point out the reality of the situation. Did you read Dan's piece on the front page? While it is tongue-in-cheek, there is a significant amount of truth to it! What exactly did you think was going to happen when you put 2000 people on a bike course in Florida. This unfortunately is a very old story, I recall going to the U.S. Championships in Hilton Head SC back in the late 80's - flat bike with 1200 evenly matched triathletes on the same course. What did you get? - drafting all over the place. It's unfortunate that athletes and RD's don't seem to understand that you can't do this. Why it keeps happening, I have no idea.

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

trinow

Nov 11, 07 17:28

Post #90 of 143 (1210 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

maybe she thought someone had ethics...

Diana

Nov 11, 07 17:28

Post #91 of 143 (1210 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I was admittedly naive and thought there was hope with the race changes. I won't ever return to Florida...guaranteed.

Fleck

Nov 11, 07 17:40

Post #92 of 143 (1202 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [In reply to]	Can't Post

maybe she thought someone had ethics...

I will admit that ethics are important here, but circumstsnce is also a big factor. I remember the situation at Hilton Head VERY clearly. I had done a alot of tri racing, but that was the first time EVER in a triathlon that I had to use my brakes heavily to get out of a drafting situation. There were HUGE packs. It was the first time EVER that I actually had to employ road racing tactics of, going off the front and attacking, hard, to drop people, to get the best line in the corners, to bridge up to the next group etc . .. It seemed like a surrealistic situation that I had NEVER encountered in my many years of tri racing to that point. So I know the frustration that the women was talking about. She was going in thinking it was going to be head-down and hammering for 56 miles and she got a bike road race. However, as I said, this has been going on for almost 25 years if my experience at Hilton head is anything to go on!! No one should be surprised.

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

(This post was edited by Fleck on Nov 11, 07 17:51)

Fleck

Nov 11, 07 17:42

Post #93 of 143 (1199 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Diana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I won't ever return to Florida...guaranteed.

And so you shouldn't if you feel that way, but don't just post it here, you and everyone else that is up in arms like this should be emailing the WTC non-stop. If they have any sense, they will do something about it.

Steve Fleck
http://www.nineteenwetsuits.com
http://stevefleck.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/stevefleck

Mark Lemmon

Nov 11, 07 17:50

Post #94 of 143 (1182 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Diana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Diana,

Good to read someone with your credentials speaking out on this issue! I agree that we should contact the RDs directly and speak with our $$ as far as what races we choose to do, but I don't agree that we should stop discussing this issue on this public forum just because it has been happening a long time.

Do we stop discussing racism or poverty because they are old news too?

And no, I'm not comparing drafting to racism or poverty, but it is an issue of fairness and ethics within our sport.

I think there are enough smart people in this sport to change things so that there can be races with 2000 in Florida without drafting that we are currently seeing. Time-trial starts, wave starts mixed randomly, etc. Yeah, I know, those ideas would mess up the old racing traditions. This is the way it's always been done so just get used to it...

(This post was edited by Mark Lemmon on Nov 11, 07 18:10)

Diana

Nov 11, 07 17:55

Post #95 of 143 (1176 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"It was the first time EVER that I actually had to employ road racing tactics of going off the front and attacking, hard, to drop people."

Funny you mention that! That's exactly what I was doing (must be the road racer in me)...only to have all of the hard work wasted when they would magically reappear and pass me effortlessly 10 minutes later along with about 30 men : (. Those hard attacks really aren't good for the 'ol running legs : ). I think I'll try to avoid that tactic in the future!

ggeiger

Nov 11, 07 18:02

Post #96 of 143 (1164 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Diana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm with you. I did the same last week at IMFL and lost my legs as a result as well. I won't go back either. 20 min drafting penalty or penalty laps as in biathlon, in front of the spectators. Let me know what I can do to join up and let them know.

h2ofun

Nov 11, 07 18:09

Post #97 of 143 (1157 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Steve, sorry to say, there is not an issue as far as WTC is concerned, IMO. Again, put yourself in their BUSINESS shoes?
Are they losing money? Are they getting into law suits? Are they filling up races? Why oh why do you think they would change?
There is NO issue at any business level for them to! And as I also said, they have plenty of money to give to Jimmy to HIRE
motor bikes and officials, IF THEY WANTED TO.

This sure gets old on ST. The same old same old. Why do folks think the sun will not shine the next day? Why do folks see the word
"Championship" and become a lemming? Who cares about being on the podium. Is it going to put food on the table?
(I guess it must some how feed the ego though).

Go sign up for races that have PROVEN courses that have no drafting!! Again, come to Auburn and test your skills on a kick ass course.
Nice small crowd so NONE of the issues some of these 70.3 races, and IM races, seem to have.

Someone should write a book on the WTC carrot success. It is great, and I would do exactly the same thing in their shoes. They are
the role model on how to build a business!!! We have so many in this sport that just loves to do what others are doing. I guess since
I like to be an independent thinker, I resist the pull to the dark side.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell

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sig

Nov 11, 07 18:23

Post #98 of 143 (1141 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Fleck] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Steve, could it be that WTC and NAS do not want to stop the drafting? Could it be that one of the many reasons they backed away from USAT was to get away from Charlie Crawford and his penalty enforcement? Think about it, in 2002, under Charlie and USAT official, athletes doing IMFL were issued between 200 and 300 penalties, many of them 12 minute penalties for a second violation. That was before the stand down that WTC insists having nowadays. Just think how much time is taken out of a refs hands when he has to do a stand down penalty.
If you go back to search the threads, I wrote one concerning a guy who was complaining on Tri Newbies regarding his DQ in IMFL. What I got was a lot of grief from people like Tom Demerly calling me sanctimonious for calling out a good guy and good athlete who had been caught 3 times drafting but he could not remember ever drafting in the race. Methinks that WTC sees this as more of a threat to their financial security than allowing drafting to be ongoing.
BTW, I don't think they list the penaties anymore unless you go to the individuals profile and race results.
As an aside, did you notice that that the leading bike for the W35-39 was also the fastest women's bike split? In fact, only Julie Dibens would have placed in the top four of the W35-39.

Bob Sigerson

h2ofun

Nov 11, 07 18:27

Post #99 of 143 (1134 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [sig] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Bob, great data. That supports more thoughts even stronger!!

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell

VHS to DVD transfers
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

omoore61

Nov 11, 07 18:34

Post #100 of 143 (1121 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Tai] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I was talking with someone tonight who worked the race. 9 crashes on the bike, only one pro which im assuming was your friend. 5 of the crashes were caused by cars though, 1 person through a windshield and one through a rear window of an suv! If people needed another reason not to do the race......

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