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Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater?
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trinow
Nov 10, 07 17:18
Post #51 of 143 (1177 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun]
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That is why the rules are written the way they are. Everyone on the course can have an opinion, like in any sport.
(Does everyone agree even on instant replays?) But, the ONLY time something is a penality, and if you want to then call
it cheating, is when a marshall gives you a penality. Otherwise, go race, and realize that this is NOT life or death, and it will
NEVER change. So, if it really really upsets you, get out of the sport and just swim/bike/run by yourself.
Dave
you are right, I saw Tiger Woods tee a ball up in the middle of the fairway when nobody was looking..not. To say that someone should leave a sport because they expect the participants to be honest, says alot about its participants. But then again, you are a "Certified USAT Race Director..."
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h2ofun
Nov 10, 07 17:22
Post #52 of 143 (1169 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow]
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You know, it is very interesting you are willing to judge others, but do not have the guts to even have your real name
recorded. Most folks when they read things from folks who are not willing to say who they are, should really think
about what motives the person posting may have.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
trinow
Nov 10, 07 17:28
Post #53 of 143 (1159 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun]
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You know, it is very interesting you are willing to judge others, but do not have the guts to even have your real name
recorded. Most folks when they read things from folks who are not willing to say who they are, should really think
about what motives the person posting may have.
Dave
George Smith
7421 Brooklyn Rd
Tampa Fl 33625
Telephone: 813-412-1180
Bring it
h2ofun
Nov 10, 07 17:29
Post #54 of 143 (1156 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow]
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May want to update your profile.
Bring it? What is that supposed to mean? Man, get a life.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
mhawkins
Nov 10, 07 17:29
Post #55 of 143 (1156 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow]
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I agree with many posters here about drafting being a choice of the rider. This was my first "draft pack" race and it was disappointing. You either cheat and go for a high place or suck up your pride and go for a legit time. Once the packs formed after 10 miles, I knew I was on pace for a good time and drafting would just ruin my legit race. The high point of the race was watching a peloton go down at about mile 20. Probably 10-15 went down when they tried to pass a girl who freaked out, swerved, and took out the group!! Classic. I was riding solo (out in traffic to avoid the packs) yelling back "thats what you get for drafting." The worst part about the drafting is that I know there were several cyclists I could hammer one-on-one, and especially on the run. But with their fresh legs, I wasn't able to catch as many on the difficult run as I would have liked. Since the drafting doesn't seem preventable, its not worth it to get upset about it. Race you race and be happy with your legit time. Those who cheated know it, and can't feel as proud as with their finish as you and I can.
trinow
Nov 10, 07 17:37
Post #56 of 143 (1140 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun]
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May want to update your profile.
Bring it? What is that supposed to mean? Man, get a life.
Dave
obviously you can't handle calling some one out and then they show up. I "brought it" and you just tell me to get a life...
Mark Lemmon
Nov 10, 07 17:38
Post #57 of 143 (1138 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun]
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"And it will NEVER change."
IMHO, it has changed -- drafting has gotten worse this decade. If it continues to deteriorate, I will be racing less or not at all, which shouldn't be good news for USAT certified RDs.
dave_w
Nov 10, 07 17:45
Post #58 of 143 (1118 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [mhawkins]
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You either cheat and go for a high place or suck up your pride and go for a legit time.
I wondered about this; so you feel you were able to still do "your" race and come away with a time you know is an individual effort? It's irksome to not be able to do races that are closeby or attractive for other reasons, but that I know lend themselves to drafting.
h2ofun
Nov 10, 07 18:01
Post #59 of 143 (1102 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Mark Lemmon]
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You are the exception. Most folks could care less.
Now, I have been asking USAT, or someone like 101, bring the ITU race format to the US. I do enjoy draft legal racescpmpared
to the game that gets played with races today with drafting. But, since draft legal races means folks
have to learn how to swim, most find lots of great excuses of why not to do them.
Now, at my draft legal race this year, I got out of the swim way ahead of the others and the down side was there was NO draft pack to
catch onto when I was bascially in the lead from my wave. About 2/3rd into the bike leg, the draft pack from the slower
swimmers caught me. So, not sure what I will do next year. I ended up wasting a lot of energy biking by myself at the beginning and there is no
way I can stay ahead of a good draft pack. Makes for some fun, legal strategies where I do not have to worry about what marshalls
may or may not do.
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
trinow
Nov 10, 07 18:09
Post #60 of 143 (1096 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun]
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You are the exception. Most folks could care less.
to be fair, he does say you could care less so there is some wiggle room.
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Tai
Nov 10, 07 21:09
Post #61 of 143 (1034 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [eganski]
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ha, great description of last year. It was most entertaining wasn't it:) Well most entertaining after all the frustration and swearing, then you kind of figured out you were screwed either way and there was no escaping as escape just meant moving foward or backward into the same situation again.
Felt bad for the marshals last year too. On the bridge one rolled by on his scooter near the bridge, I looked at him, looked around, back at him (we were riding about 3-4 abreast at that time) and he rolled his eyes, smiled at me and kind of gave me the "good luck..." shrug. Problem was he couldn't even tell us to spread out as there wasn't enough room. And then the divider came up and he couldn't even fit on the road anymore. If I had trained and peaked for that race to end up in that situation I would have been pretty pissed... Sucks to as I have family just an hour away so it's logistically a good race to go to:P I'm only going back if I get a pro card or am in the right age group to be in the first age group wave, no other way.
www.TAIGRAPHX.com
For ordering info, please email me at tai@taigraphx.com, PMs are great but please use them for ST stuff only:) thanks!
desert dude
Nov 10, 07 21:25
Post #62 of 143 (1025 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Tai]
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Tai, the sad thing was last year if they had stuck a womens wave between wave 1 whihc was M30-39 and wave 2 which was 20-29 I think it would have been a much much, cleaner race. I was alone out in front for 40k, until Flanagans and qcassidy along with 20 or so of their friends + a few elite females who i passed in the first 5k of the bike rolled me. Then you were either moving forward or drifting backward. After about 15k of this, Cid cardosa, qcassidy myself, and two others managed to ride the group off our wheels and it was again a clean race (for me). I have picks of the huge packs.
Just poor planning on the RD's part and no areas where needed (the causeway) to enforce the rules safely.
Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Save at TriSports.com - use code BSTOV-S
trinow
Nov 10, 07 22:55
Post #63 of 143 (1014 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun]
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You know, it is very interesting you are willing to judge others, but do not have the guts to even have your real name
recorded. Most folks when they read things from folks who are not willing to say who they are, should really think
about what motives the person posting may have.
Dave
okay, now what? Let's get this right, you say that I judge others,etc. But then you try and school me....ironic. You are right, I have a motive, which is calling an idiot an idiot. And at times, I fall in that cat.
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Tai
Nov 11, 07 0:17
Post #64 of 143 (999 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [desert dude]
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Hmm, the women's wave probably would have mitigated the pack problem a bit but the swim split differential at a half distance is still generally enough to kill the majority of the benefits (for the bike) of starting waves. I'm remembering a 3 min gap between waves, although it's a pretty fuzzy memory... I'm guessing that until you start into the 10+ min waves there isn't much of an effect on the bike course. But yes, part of the problem in other races I've seen with problems is that sometimes the waves are set up more to keep everyone finishing around the same time than to help with crowding. This being based on pressure to wrap races up and open streets as quickly in possible, especially important in towns like Clearwater where the race literally shuts the town down and places traffic and residents in a holding pattern (based on my 1x experience had while riding a bike for a couple of hours...). But yes wave reorganization could help, or at least help the guys who are typically stronger cyclists than the females and are less likely to be caught drafting off a woman;)
Personally last year I went to the race out of shape and injured. Not that this should make a difference but if I had been in normal biking shape and could have gone and pulled a fast bike split I also probably would have been able to avoid a lot of the crowding problems. Maybe not all of the problems but I'm guessing that I would have had a lot cleaner and less frustrating race.
"crowding problems," honestly this might be a better term for races like Clearwater versus "drafting problems..."
www.TAIGRAPHX.com
For ordering info, please email me at tai@taigraphx.com, PMs are great but please use them for ST stuff only:) thanks!
devashish_paul
Nov 11, 07 0:53
Post #65 of 143 (989 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit]
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I have a pretty basic question. If they had 5 year age groups leaving 10 minutes apart, is there hope for a clean race at this venue.
You could do something like this:
M 20-24 8 am (or whatever)
F 20-24 T+2
M 25-29 T+10
F 25-29 T+12
M 30-24 T+20
F 30-24 T+22
M 35-29 T+30
F 35-39 T+32
M 40-44 T+40
F 40-44 T+42
M 45-49 T+50
F 45-49 T+52
M 50+ T+60 (there is enough differential in the older age groups that things spread out in a hurry)
W 50+ T+62
With the men's age groups spread 10 minutes apart, is there any hope that the bulk of drafting would be cleaned out on such a flat course with highly competitive athletes, or are there just too many fast 30-34 or 25-29 or 40-44's etc etc?
Dev
Axel
Nov 11, 07 3:33
Post #66 of 143 (975 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [devashish paul]
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I think there is no way to get a clean race with a field like this at a venue like this.
I have to totally agree with tai and others: This is not going to change, race somewhere with a challenging bike-course.
@trinow: troll
Axel
slowguy
Nov 11, 07 3:42
Post #67 of 143 (970 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun]
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"The rule is unless one gets a penalty for something by an official, one has not broken the rules. Period, end of story. This is the same in ANY sport!!!"
I had to go back and make sure I read this correctly. You're seriously saying that you haven't broken the rules unless you get caught? And you seriously said that the rules say so? And you seriously think all sports say the same thing? I haven't read the rulebook cover to cover recently, but I'd be interested to see where it says that you haven't broken a rule unless you get caught.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
devashish_paul
Nov 11, 07 3:42
Post #68 of 143 (970 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Axel]
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I personally passed up my slot that I got in St. Croix back in 2006 for the first edition of Clearwater. I was afraid that I'd be spending $2000K to go to a race and blow vacation time for an outcome that would be affected by too much interference by others on the course (like you said, flat course with too many fast guys all very competitive).
It would be nice if there was a real 70.3 age group world championships that people really want to be a part of. I posted the suggested wave spacing but have no clue if this would work at this venue. I was hoping that something like that stood a chance to make the competition more fair.
If the best age group racers decide that this is "not a championship event", then I can't see it getting that much traction over time, just like the ITU Age Group World's has lost its appeal since from most countries they pretty well let in anyone and everyone (12 slots per age group per country...with infinite roll down...) and "qualification has limited to zero meaning.
Both qualification and the championship event need some meaning....Kona has both...ITU age group world's still has a strong competition...its just easy to get into....70.3 worlds can be pretty easy to get into depending on where you go from and the competition does not have "championship fairness"
Dev
zipprider757
Nov 11, 07 4:42
Post #69 of 143 (940 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [devashish paul]
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Smart move. I did the race in 06 and wont go back until they fix the problem. I cant believe spots were so hard to come by this year. Until we stop being sheep WTC has no incentive to change.
PennState
Nov 11, 07 5:00
Post #70 of 143 (924 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [zipprider757]
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The WTC still has a hard time selling the clearwater championship... they have to roll down pretty far to get their 'winning' entrants. I dd Eagleman as my frist HIM ever in a reasonable time of 4:5x, which I was quite pleased with, but was hardly 'fast' for that course, and Clearwatr spots rolled all the way down to me (eyes roll).
I also did Steelhead this year and that race was a draft-fest... won't do it again. Too many athletes for the course. I am already planning on non-WTC events next year. At Steelhead, I don't think it was possible not to draft, as they started the fastest waves last as well. It sucked (literally)
The bottom line on the drafting is that it TAKES AWAY FROM THE ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THE NON-CHEATERS!!!!
If you did a really good time, people are going to say.... 'yeah, but you probably drafted...'
Columbia
Eagleman
Lake Placid
Axel
Nov 11, 07 5:09
Post #71 of 143 (917 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [devashish paul]
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Totally agree on all.
In addition: A worldchamps needs a special something, a mythos... I am interested to see if that can be just synthetically generated by naming a new venue the world-champs.
Originally I thought Honu wouldīve been the best venue for the 70.3-worlds... as it would profit of the flavor of the Ironman. I understand that they wanted a easier to access venue though, but there must be more challenging courses on mainland USA, too. (Not to mention that a WORLD-champs didnīt necessarily had to be in the US ;-) )
Axel
rocklinwoody
Nov 11, 07 6:00
Post #72 of 143 (884 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Tai]
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Tai, from a safety point of view you did the right thing. The last thing you need is a bunch of yahoo triathletes continually cutting you off. I am surprised there no accidents. You were better off holding your spot or just getting off your bike and going home. You chose wisely.
h2ofun
Nov 11, 07 6:00
Post #73 of 143 (883 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [slowguy]
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What is your definition of breaking a rule at a race? Your opinion? I have heard clearly from the officials that the ONLY
people that can propose a person is drafting is a marshall, and then the ONLY person who decides at the end of the
race if it is a penality is the head official. Talk to Charlie, he has many times thrown out a marshalls suggestion because it
did not have enough data for him to give the penality. Now, that is a USAT race. For a WTC race, since they do the penalities on site,
same thing, unless you see penalities in the final results, technically, folks can bitch all they want, but, to the rules of the
event, it did not happen. (Now, this is playing words, and I am NOT trying to say it is right, but I have voted for what
I believe in by NOT signing up for races that I know will be nothing be a draft fest! Are others?)
Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
slowguy
Nov 11, 07 6:07
Post #74 of 143 (875 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun]
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"What is your definition of breaking a rule at a race? Your opinion?"
What does "my definition" have to do with anything? The rules lay out what you can and can't do. If you do not comply with that, then you have broken the rules. The fact that no one calls you on it doesn't mean you didn't break the rules, it just means you got lucky and aren't going to have to pay any penalty for your cheating/rule breaking.
" I have heard clearly from the officials that the ONLY
people that can propose a person is drafting is a marshall, and then the ONLY person who decides at the end of the
race if it is a penality is the head official."
That just means that only the officials are allowed to officiate. Just like a football player can't level a holding penalty, only the refs can. Doesn't mean that you only broke the rules if someone catches you.
" For a WTC race, since they do the penalities on site,
same thing, unless you see penalities in the final results, technically, folks can bitch all they want, but, to the rules of the
event, it did not happen"
No, again, that just means people get away with breaking the rules. It doesn't mean they only broke the rules if they got caught.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
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trinow
Nov 11, 07 6:36
Post #75 of 143 (864 views)
Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun]
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"If you don't get caught, it did not happen." Now that is logic. Is that what the USAT teaches in its course to become a "USAT Certified Race Director"? If so, no wonder the sport has drafting issues.
(This post was
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by trinow on Nov 11, 07 6:40)
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