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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater?

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Mark Lemmon

Nov 10, 07 15:26

Post #26 of 143 (2657 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [iron3fit] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Obviously, neither the competitors nor the race directors are free of blame in the drafting situation at IMF or Clearwater (as well as other races), but I don't think NAS/WTC has made reducing drafting a major priority.

I'm not registered for any NAS/WTC events and have no plans to do any next year.

(This post was edited by Mark Lemmon on Nov 10, 07 15:32)

Tai

Nov 10, 07 15:27

Post #27 of 143 (2657 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [leggett24] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi, can't believe we're talking about a race a year ago:) Actually I'm curious what you did and how you managed to stay clear of a pack, at least for the first half. Serious question, not trying to mock you or anything. I dropped back over 20 spots in that openingish straightaway and couldn't find a clear spot. If I held my ground with a legal gap I just had the guy behind me pass and slide into that slot pushing me back farther... Made a few big pushes to find an opening but it was impossible. I'd say up until the causeway I was legal distance behind someone maybe 50-60% of the time. And half the time I had someone riding parallel to me and 30+ riders within 5 sec in any direction. The bridge/causeway going out was the worst as it was a good 5-6 riders across and at least 20-30 deep. Going out it looked like we had clear space ahead so I weaved my way up which was like riding in a road race, scary. Got to the front and then about a mile later we ran into the back of another group which put everything back into chaos again. Finally on the way back over teh causewayI was able to break free and take off never to see a group again, but this was only because the race was more of a "just go out and do it race" for me as I hadn't been running at all leading up to the race. If I had been riding normal effort level (was riding quite a bit below) there would have been no way I could have made that move as it would have been lactic overload.

anyways point i'm trying to make is that those situations suck and until doing clearwater last year I had the same "you choose to cheat or you don't" attitude. I guess locally it's never an issue as I rarely have anyone near me on the bike and there is just a lot more room.

anyways, I'm going to stop posting on this one and get back to work but before anyone bashes middle of the waves people at clearwater remember that there is a really good chance that the race really really sucked for them because of being in a shitty situation on the bike. When I got off the bike last year my opinion on the race was that it was basically a big joke and there was no point at even trying to run well as the bike screwed things up so much. None of my friends except the two pros (who had open road...) said they were going back to race and there was 10-12 of us.
www.TAIGRAPHX.com

For ordering info, please email me at tai@taigraphx.com, PMs are great but please use them for ST stuff only:) thanks!

trinow

Nov 10, 07 15:32

Post #28 of 143 (2648 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [sc3826] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

clear and simple - especially on this course today with the spacing and order of the wave starts - if you were drafting, it was by your own choice. period.
i saw a few rather large groups go by today. there was plenty of open space ahead and a lot of space behind.

no blame for today's drafting (which wasn't all that much, really) can be placed on the layout of the course, an excessive number of athletes on the course, or inattentive race officials.

race officials did as much as can be expected. "

steelhead was another story all together.

race officials did as much as can be expected. "

I wish that my customers had that expectation.

(This post was edited by trinow on Nov 10, 07 15:42)

h2ofun

Nov 10, 07 15:44

Post #29 of 143 (2636 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Tai] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tai, impressed you were honest. I would have done the same thing as you. One has not drafted unless one gets
a penalty. And if one gets a penalty, one does the time. I wonder why these folks that somehow think drafting in
a race that an RD has made impossible not to is such life and death. I expect they break plenty of rules, just that
they will never be honest, and have lots of great reasons why the ones they break are different.

I keep think about would this race be fun to be in. But, after thinking about a few races I have been in where it was
too crowded to ride clean, Na, will save money money and try to go to more USAT World events.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell

VHS to DVD transfers
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

zipprider757

Nov 10, 07 15:55

Post #30 of 143 (2620 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [imsparticus] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree. I'm sure most of those SOB's would call Nina a cheater. She is. The difference is she admitted it. Drafters never admit they draft. A cheat is a cheat.

M~

Nov 10, 07 15:57

Post #31 of 143 (2610 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"One has not drafted unless one gets a penalty"

Yes you have. You just didn't get caught.
*****----------------------------------------*****
Interviewer: What's your prediction for the fight?
Clubber Lang: My prediction?
Interviewer: Yes, your prediction.
Clubber Lang: Pain!

trinow

Nov 10, 07 16:01

Post #32 of 143 (2599 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Markus Mucus] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

"One has not drafted unless one gets a penalty"

Yes you have. You just didn't get caught.

once again, i'm sure their spouse agrees.

(This post was edited by trinow on Nov 10, 07 16:02)

TripleThreat

Nov 10, 07 16:02

Post #33 of 143 (2597 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Martin C] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The responsibility for enforcing the rules of an organization is on the participants? (or non-participants) I have no idea why grown adults keep posting that same suggestion.

Again, I say, either enforce or repeal the rule.

Relying on the participant's appearance or absence is cowardly.
=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

(This post was edited by TripleThreat on Nov 10, 07 16:06)

h2ofun

Nov 10, 07 16:07

Post #34 of 143 (2579 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Markus Mucus] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thats your OPINION! The rule is unless one gets a penalty for something by an official, one has
not broken the rules. Period, end of story. This is the same in ANY sport!!! When I go to a race, I am competing.
I am not high and mighty. If the course, RD, etc has folks drafting, well guess what, I will be
there right with them!!! If I wanted to be "honest" in that type of race, I never would have gone.
Why would I have paid to not compete. I can do training rides all by myself forever with that approach.
Hye, I am going to be honest, compared to what most say and do!!!

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell

VHS to DVD transfers
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

trinow

Nov 10, 07 16:09

Post #35 of 143 (2574 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

so are you in favor of cheating? I guess I will tee my ball up in every shot next time in golf because there are alot of people out there. I only cheat because they made me. in reply to god no, not in favor of cheating at all, but at that race in particular it was either cheat or just drop out and watch.

so the race made you...I don't think your spouse will buy it.

trinow

Nov 10, 07 16:12

Post #36 of 143 (2565 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [TripleThreat] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

The responsibility for enforcing the rules of an organization is on the participants? (or non-participants) I have no idea why grown adults keep posting that same suggestion.

I guess that the posters would have something called "ethics"....

zipprider757

Nov 10, 07 16:15

Post #37 of 143 (2553 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun] [In reply to]	Can't Post

[reply]Thats your OPINION! The rule is unless one gets a penalty for something by an official, one has
not broken the rules. Period, end of story. This is the same in ANY sport!!! When I go to a race, I am competing.
I am not high and mighty. If the course, RD, etc has folks drafting, well guess what, I will be
there right with them!!! If I wanted to be "honest" in that type of race, I never would have gone.
Why would I have paid to not compete. I can do training rides all by myself forever with that approach.
Hye, I am going to be honest, compared to what most say and do!!!

Wow, I guess OJ really isnt a murderer.

trinow

Nov 10, 07 16:21

Post #38 of 143 (2535 views)

Post deleted by trinow [In reply to]

Mark Lemmon

Nov 10, 07 16:22

Post #39 of 143 (2535 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun] [In reply to]	Can't Post

[reply]If the course, RD, etc has folks drafting, well guess what, I will be
there right with them!!!
Dave[/reply]

Thanks for your honesty.

trinow

Nov 10, 07 16:24

Post #40 of 143 (2529 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Wow, I guess OJ really isnt a murderer.

no, the course made him do it

eganski

Nov 10, 07 16:26

Post #41 of 143 (2526 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I respect your opinion on this but you've got to believe it when I say that Clearwater is different. You get these packs that roll by that are sometimes 3 wide and sometimes the "passing" lane is riding at the same pace as the right lane. So, you drop back because you don't want to cheat. Well, 7m behind a pack of 40 guys, you're getting sucked along, so you decide you're going to attack the group. Well, the problem is you've got 15 guys in the passing lane in front of you. So you stay 7m back and get in the passing lane. Everyone to your right is on the wheel in front of him, and they hate it too because most of them don't want to be drafting either, not to mention they're pusing about 160w when they're fully capable of pushing 240ish. So, the 7m gap you've left is looking pretty good, and they jump in it. Well, now you're drafting. Do you drop back again (which is what causes the 2 "lanes" to get stuck at the same speed) or do you say "fuck it, people are just going to cut in front of me, i'm going to get closer to the wheel in front of me?" Guess what, you're drafting again. So after going through this 5 or 6 times, you get to the front and attack (and blow your race). You kill yourself, and you get to the pack ahead. You've been sucked in by 30 or 40 guys and you're spent from your effort, so you sit 7m back and recover because at this point you're getting a huge draft. And you're right back where you've started.

This happens at Clearwater for 56 miles, a World Championship race, and your only option is to attack attack attack, or soft pedal. Because if you're pedaling at any reasonable 1/2 IM pace and you're surrounded by other top athletes on a flat course, this is what's going to happen-it's going to pack up. Like I said, i've never seen anything like it. And i'll never go back to Clearwater.

Don't judge Tai or me for what we did, but be very suspicious of people who go back. The fast swimmer/runners who aren't strong on the bike. This race was made for them.

(This post was edited by eganski on Nov 10, 07 16:27)

leggett24

Nov 10, 07 16:28

Post #42 of 143 (2519 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Tai] [In reply to]	Can't Post

What I did was get passed by hundreds of people. A year later and I'm still pissed off about it. You're right it was a joke

trinow

Nov 10, 07 16:34

Post #43 of 143 (2507 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [eganski] [In reply to]	Can't Post

right, clearwater is the most unique race venue in the world...the only flat course, the most participants, the most...blah, blah,blah,....

h2ofun

Nov 10, 07 16:36

Post #44 of 143 (2498 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [Mark Lemmon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I was thinking more about this. The only race I do that I have been put into this situation is the SJIT
around the middle of it. There is a couple mile section which is a dead flat out and back. Since I start in the later
waves, by the time I get to this part of the course, the bikes are 4 to 5 wide on each side of the road, and solid
as far as one can see. So, I have always during this part of the race just went with the flow. I could not bike
because you could not pass anyone since there was NO place to pass. Now, by the letter of the law, I am drafting.
Well, I called it more like being in a long time for a ride at disneyland. Now, the only way I can think of to be legal is
to 1), not do the race, 2). stop my bike and wait until everyone is passed, 3). just do ones best like everyone else is doing
and have a great time. So, this is what I call I will and have drafted by the letter of the law, and see that I did not have
many choices. But, I would much rather be honest and say there are times when there is NO choice, than a few who continue
to play this high road that somehow it is possible to never ever draft. Either they have not done many races, or are very
lucky in the races they choose, or is it possible they are not ho.... Smile

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell

VHS to DVD transfers
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

h2ofun

Nov 10, 07 16:38

Post #45 of 143 (2491 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [eganski] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I would LOVE to see them put the race on at Auburn. I can promise you there would be NO drafting, and you would get a REAL champion that did
the race totally against the elements. So, for folks who want an honest race, come out and join me on May 18th!!! I beat a lot of these folks will find
tons of excuses since they would have to bike and run in killer hills!!

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell

VHS to DVD transfers
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

(This post was edited by h2ofun on Nov 10, 07 16:39)

TripleThreat

Nov 10, 07 16:49

Post #46 of 143 (2469 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I guess that the posters would have something called "ethics"....

The responsibility of the participant is to follow the rules.

The responsibility of the marshall is to enforce the rules.

Having one group's responsibility shift to the other group is ridiculous.

Having both groups be unethical while the unhappy participant leaves, seems like a "fool's solution".
=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

trinow

Nov 10, 07 16:50

Post #47 of 143 (2467 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [h2ofun] [In reply to]	Can't Post

there is a huge difference between sporadically getting caught in a pack then sitting on the wheel that is what going on by some...once again, there is nothing quite like giving a gatorade shower.

h2ofun

Nov 10, 07 17:06

Post #48 of 143 (2446 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [In reply to]	Can't Post

But, technically they are BOTH the same. And, from the sounds of clearwater, most get caught in a pack, vs
being just 2 folks by themselves.

So, by the rules, there is NO difference. It is just some of us are willing to be honest that we get caught in drafting
sometimes, and try not to play these games about how in one case it would be okay, and the other it is not.

That is why the rules are written the way they are. Everyone on the course can have an opinion, like in any sport.
(Does everyone agree even on instant replays?) But, the ONLY time something is a penality, and if you want to then call
it cheating, is when a marshall gives you a penality. Otherwise, go race, and realize that this is NOT life or death, and it will
NEVER change. So, if it really really upsets you, get out of the sport and just swim/bike/run by yourself.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell

VHS to DVD transfers
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

ttocsmi

Nov 10, 07 17:08

Post #49 of 143 (2441 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [trinow] [In reply to]	Can't Post

race officials did as much as can be expected

i stand by what i said. most of the way down highway 19 and back into clearwater there were two different officials on motorcycles. they would ride with the group i was in, disappear for a bit then come back. once the officials showed up people would eventually spread out and follow the rules. imagine that.

when crime's out of control in your city, you hire more police.

-
"an effete corps of impudent snobs who characterize themselves as intellectuals"

h2ofun

Nov 10, 07 17:16

Post #50 of 143 (2425 views)

Re: Dear WTC can you stop all the drafting madness at Clearwater? [sc3826] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Perfect example, and why I continue to say that IF WTC/NSA REALLY wanted to stop this, they would SPEND the money
and hire TONs of motor bikes and officials. But, and this is TOO easy, really really think about it and follow the money.
Do you think they really want to have go home tons of pissed off customers! NOPE. This is why if I were in their shoes,
I would do exactly what they are doing. They do enough so folks can not say there is nothing, but not enough to lose
business. Pretty simple in my books.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell

VHS to DVD transfers
http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

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