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BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup

 

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SWM_LIKE_A_ROCK

Nov 12, 10 6:22

Post #1 of 28 (2848 views)
BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup Quote | Reply

Good morning everyone. I apologize for a lengthy post, but would like to give a full picture before asking for advice.
I have taken 2 weeks off from running due to a slight, hopefully, ITB and Piriformis flare up. I was building to my first full marathon and got to my 17 mile long run with aches and pains but nothing too out of the ordinary for me. I took a day off to recover and then, not very wisely, ran with the fast group for a 5 mile tempo run. I felt a little knee pain after the work set but just kind of forgot about it. I went to run the next day and after 2 miles it hit. Lateral knee pain that stopped when I walked but I could not run or jog. I took the rest of the week off and ran the following weekend. Got through 5 miles and it hit again. Well after a couple more days off, I tried again and only got 2 miles in. Ok now I'm listening, I need to take some time off and get some treatment. I was 6 weeks out from the marathon and had to stop running.

Went to see the chiropractor that helped with my PF last year, again building up probably too quickly and always running close to 10K pace, and they found some really hot trigger points in my glutes and hamstrings. Plenty of piriformis tightness as well so the pain began. I don't complain too much about pain but holy crap, that hurt. Anyway I am now scrapping the race for sure and after 2 weeks off from running totally, I plan to start easing back after this weekend.

Here is where I would like some input. I plan on doing St. Anthony's as my main race this year, I know there are mixed feelings on the race but I have done it the last 2 years and had crap races so I'm ready to have a good race for my own ego's sake. My plan starts on January 16th so my question is this; I plan to try to just build a solid base until January with my run, which I have never really worked in to my training for prior seasons, using Barry's approach of 6 days a week.

I am a bigger runner at 6' and now down to 180 lbs. from a bodybuilding weight of 230, so I'm hoping that this alternative, along with a little more weight loss, to my prior training will help me to race a season without have to be injured for almost every race. I know every one has aches and pains on race day, but I had to walk in both my olympic races and turned my 44 min. open 10K time into an hour long death march both times and had to DNS for Florida 70.3.

-I plan to start back at 2:4:6 miles for my runs. This will put me at 22/wk which should be OK after only 2 weeks off from 30-35 mile weeks prior to the injury, right?

-I will use McMillans calculator for training paces so I will be sure to run an appropriate pace for training as I feel that most of my runs before were too fast a pace. Should these all be at the same pace and which pace from the calculator should I use?

-Since I plan to only do olympic distance races and some sprint next season, what should I increase my distances to, if at all? I DO NOT want to just run more and not faster, but I feel like 2 months of a solid base will allow me to add the speed work when my official training plan starts so I can have faster run splits next season without the time off for injuries.

Thanks for reading my long winded post and thanks in advance for any constructive advice from anyone. I also expect and welcome the flame comments that will come from the usual suspects. That's part of why I love SlowTwitch.
----------------------------------------------------

"It's too dangerous and expensive to ride with d*ckheads" -tridork




(This post was edited by craigstrispot on Nov 12, 10 8:28)


SWM_LIKE_A_ROCK

Nov 12, 10 7:48

Post #2 of 28 (2758 views)
Re: Barry P., Desert, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Is my post that bad ;-)

--------------------------

"It's too dangerous and expensive to ride with d*ckheads" -tridork




desert dude

Nov 12, 10 7:51

Post #3 of 28 (2751 views)
Re: Barry P., Desert, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

No, it's more that this is a one off better handled not on a forum and better handled with more info related to your overall training.

And it's Desert Dude or DD, not Desert and definitely not Dessert, although i'm sure many people could be called Dessert Dude ;-)


Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching :: @accelerate3 :: Like us on Facebook
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SWM_LIKE_A_ROCK

Nov 12, 10 8:21

Post #4 of 28 (2684 views)
Re: Barry P., Desert, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ok Desert Dude, I get it. Sorry for the desert thing and thanks for the response. Here is a quick overview of my training and where my paces are:

-This is my 4th tri season and I have learned from each one. I have only done olympic and sprint distances. I learned that I get injured when I run the way I think I should and though I do have some local help, it is their training that I have been following.
-I am a 44 min open 10K, guy and 20 min 5K so that is where my running level is. This is based on running 3 sometimes 4 days with mostly the same fast training pace of intervals and tempo work.
-I am 6' and weigh 180lbs. I don't swim very well, 29:06 St. Anthony's last year, but I can get through it. Bike 3-4 days 20-70 miles and race 20-22 mph for sprints and olympics.

With that information, what advice could you offer based on my questions in the above post? Thanks again.

And now I wish I would have made my name Dessert Dude ;-)

"It's too dangerous and expensive to ride with d*ckheads" -tridork




Dan Funk

Nov 12, 10 8:44

Post #5 of 28 (2637 views)
Re: Barry P., Desert, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm not an expert, but I think advice for you is pretty simple:

Run more frequently at short distances. Run slower. Listen to your body. If it hurts, don't run. You won't "lose out" on building fitness.

Don't worry about your pace...except it should feel slower than you think you should be running.

Forget about interval training for the most part until you build up more of a base, learn about yourself as a runner.

Not trying to be negative with this post. Seems - on limited knowledge - that you're putting the cart before the horse. you seem to be rushing things...why you're getting hurt.

but that may just be me.


kathy_caribe

Nov 12, 10 9:39

Post #6 of 28 (2578 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
-I plan to start back at 2:4:6 miles for my runs. This will put me at 22/wk which should be OK after only 2 weeks off from 30-35 mile weeks prior to the injury, right?

I am certainly not one to offer advice but I would advise reading all of Barry's posts (it was a 3-part series and there is more than that, but at a minimum the 3-parter) because you sound Just Like Me.

I wanted those numbers SO bad, that after a year of injury (every 3 months) I jumped right into 20mpw (because I couldn't stomach the thought of lesser mileage when I was already doing that) and kept increasing the mileage and within 2 months was injured again. I'm now almost a week into 1-2 weeks of rest. I think what I've learned is that you can't rush things. If you get injured frequently you have to REALLY sllllloooooooowwwwwww way down and scale waaaaayyyyy back and increase slowly. The way I'm looking at my future is to increase super slow and if I have to walk the run portion then I walk it. I'm trying to look longer term than next year and if I'm solely looking at races then I really don't have a long term view. I have to scale back my expectations to lengthen my ability to run uninjured. Since my goal is to run uninjured and not a specific race next year, I think the two are mutually exclusive. I think you can either train for a long term goal of uninjured running or train for a race and hope you don't get injured (when you are constantly injured like it sounds like you are and I definitely am).

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com


SWM_LIKE_A_ROCK

Nov 12, 10 9:42

Post #7 of 28 (2569 views)
Re: Barry P., Desert, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [funkman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for the advice funkman. Nothing negative about your response. That's why I asked the question for input from others. I would like to have a season with less injury and stepping back a couple steps short term for the benefit in the long term may be what I need to move forward. I have made great improvements since starting tri training and we all get a little too antsy to continue to make the huge leaps in performance that we want. I'm 38 and shoud have learned a little patience by now. I think I'm starting to get it ;-)

----------------------------------------------

"It's too dangerous and expensive to ride with d*ckheads" -tridork




Andy S

Nov 12, 10 9:53

Post #8 of 28 (2550 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You (the OP) touched on this fact, and I think you understand it, but speed work can be a real killer for some people. I say that in terms of injury. Some runners can do their speed work, recover like it's nothing, and move on. Others, potentially like yourself, get "hit" very hard by speedwork. This may have something to do with you being a bigger. Just as increasing mileage can lead to injury, so can increasing speedwork. For base training, think slow runs, very slow. Build the mileage at a slow pace, then introduce the speed while keeping the mileage constant.


Tri2HaveFun

Nov 12, 10 11:36

Post #9 of 28 (2473 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
This will put me at 22/wk which should be OK after only 2 weeks off from 30-35 mile weeks prior to the injury, right?
----------------------------------------------------



If you were only running that volume so close to your marathon to me it says you were somewhat undertraining and very likely ruuning too hard all the time. That approach may work well for people who had already established a solid base at some time, but without the base it very often leads to injury.

Doing only a month or two of base training before once again launching into running hard all the time is not likely to to a whole lot in terms of remaining injury free. What you really need to do is gradually build to 35-40 miles/week and hold it there for 4-6 months. Run at an easy effort most of the time. Just get in the miles. You need to allow your body to build the physiological adaptations necessary to be able to handle the stress when you get to the running fast phase. Building those adaptations takes a much longer time than many people allow and it's a process that typically can't be rushed.

Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!


SWM_LIKE_A_ROCK

Nov 12, 10 11:48

Post #10 of 28 (2455 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [Tri2HaveFun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Don,
Thanks and you are right. I jumped in to doing the race on short notice and tried to push it. I plan to just do up to olympic distance tri's next season so I plan to keep the mileage very modest. Where would you suggest I cap my long run for my goal? I was planning on holding it at 6 while building a base over the next couple months. I am planning on leaving the garmin at home so I don't focus on pace. Conversational pace right? I don't need a garmin for that. Thanks for the input.

"It's too dangerous and expensive to ride with d*ckheads" -tridork




Richard Blaine

Nov 12, 10 11:49

Post #11 of 28 (2453 views)
Re: Barry P., Desert, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Ok Desert Dude, I get it. Sorry for the desert thing and thanks for the response. Here is a quick overview of my training and where my paces are:

-This is my 4th tri season and I have learned from each one. I have only done olympic and sprint distances. I learned that I get injured when I run the way I think I should and though I do have some local help, it is their training that I have been following.
-I am a 44 min open 10K, guy and 20 min 5K so that is where my running level is. This is based on running 3 sometimes 4 days with mostly the same fast training pace of intervals and tempo work.
-I am 6' and weigh 180lbs. I don't swim very well, 29:06 St. Anthony's last year, but I can get through it. Bike 3-4 days 20-70 miles and race 20-22 mph for sprints and olympics.

With that information, what advice could you offer based on my questions in the above post? Thanks again.

And now I wish I would have made my name Dessert Dude ;-)

You're my long lost twin! Same build, same run and bike numbers. I'm an even more crap swimmer than you though (but not by much)!

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.


SWM_LIKE_A_ROCK

Nov 12, 10 11:57

Post #12 of 28 (2442 views)
Re: Barry P., Desert, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [jandev] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I was wondering where you were! Ha! I plan to go 26 or better this year at St. Anthony's so you need to step it up in the water too this winter. Not very lofty goal for some but it's better than where I am now. LOL

"It's too dangerous and expensive to ride with d*ckheads" -tridork




Richard Blaine

Nov 12, 10 12:00

Post #13 of 28 (2432 views)
Re: Barry P., Desert, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I was wondering where you were! Ha! I plan to go 26 or better this year at St. Anthony's so you need to step it up in the water too this winter. Not very lofty goal for some but it's better than where I am now. LOL

I'm hoping moving from 1 swim a week to 3 will help. I am still convinced that I'm currently limited more by procrastination than raw ability :)

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.


david

Nov 12, 10 12:06

Post #14 of 28 (2418 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

...and, why would you be in marathon training with the goals you stated? I think that answers your question.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.


Lactone

Nov 12, 10 12:14

Post #15 of 28 (2401 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [Tri2HaveFun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'll second this general approach. Start very slow and easy. Run consistently, progressing to 5 days per week or more. Keep your pace easy, whether based on feel or HRM. You will start very, very slowly and be surprised by how poorly trained your lower aerobic system is. But after 2 months or so you'll be running your easy runs 1-2 min faster than when you started, with no additional effort. Monitor your pace/effort efficiency, and once it plateaus add some speedwork - again slowly and incrementally. Too much speedwork before the right cardio/aerboic and mitochondrial adaptations will be risky.

Use whatever analogy you like: 'build the foundation before the house'; 'walk before you run', etc. Bottom line is you will maximize your long term running performance by running more and eventually running faster. You can run more and faster over a long period only if you're healthy. You stay healthy by starting small and building incrementally over an extended time. Rush it and you're likely to get the result you did.


SWM_LIKE_A_ROCK

Nov 12, 10 12:26

Post #16 of 28 (2374 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [david] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Because my wife is running another marathon and besides being tired of her having that over me, she needed a training partner so I so wisely thought I can jump in late and run extra hard with no negative repercussions. And that is how I ended up writing this post. So you are correct in your response David. I have never been the smartest guy on the block ;-)

"It's too dangerous and expensive to ride with d*ckheads" -tridork




david

Nov 12, 10 13:37

Post #17 of 28 (2326 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ah, the wife motive....always works for me and now I fully understand! You have plenty of time to get on track for St Anthonys....best wishes,

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.


SWM_LIKE_A_ROCK

Nov 12, 10 13:48

Post #18 of 28 (2309 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [david] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yeah, I should have mentioned that earlier. That has a direct bearing on the case. Thanks David.

-----------------

"It's too dangerous and expensive to ride with d*ckheads" -tridork




Micawber

Nov 12, 10 14:18

Post #19 of 28 (2272 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm no running guru either but there is one point I'd like to make. Besides actually reading all of BarryP's plan, you might consider reading all of McMillan's 6 part running university articles. His running calculator is only a part of that and the articles explain how his paces are intended to be used. I'm not trying to be snarky here, but cherry picking a few items out of a complex program is usually not a good idea.


SWM_LIKE_A_ROCK

Nov 12, 10 14:28

Post #20 of 28 (2259 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [Micawber] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 I did read through Barrys articles and I believe I should be using the easy pace from McMillan for the base stuff but just wanted to be sure. I will go back through the McMillan stuff too. You didn't come off as snarky at all and thanks.

"It's too dangerous and expensive to ride with d*ckheads" -tridork




bhc

Nov 12, 10 16:24

Post #21 of 28 (2203 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

After reading your post it is obvious that you have NO long term plan. If this is not the last year that you intend to run, you need to think 3 years down the road. For example: this years follow BarryP's plan with slow progression and absolutely NO speed work. Next year: same as this year except replace one medium run with a shorter tempo run (again, see BP's articles).
Year three: reassess where you are and if everything is going well you can move a little faster in your progression and more speed work.

The biggest mistake most AGers make is to approach this season like it's their last with a do-or-die attitude. If you are in this for the long haul, slow down, stay healthy and enjoy the ride. I really wish that was the approach I had taken over the last 30 years. It took me till I was 57 to stop the rediculous high-A approach I had always taken. I would have had far fewer injuries, my times would have been better and it would have been much more enjoyable.

--------------------------------------------------------
De Soto Sports


Tri2HaveFun

Nov 13, 10 7:13

Post #22 of 28 (2082 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Don,
Thanks and you are right. I jumped in to doing the race on short notice and tried to push it. I plan to just do up to olympic distance tri's next season so I plan to keep the mileage very modest. Where would you suggest I cap my long run for my goal? I was planning on holding it at 6 while building a base over the next couple months. I am planning on leaving the garmin at home so I don't focus on pace. Conversational pace right? I don't need a garmin for that. Thanks for the input.


Two things. First, I don't think you need to cap your long run. Second, you don't necessarily need a "long" run for building base.There was a thread here a few days ago about base building. I fall into the camp of running daily at about the same distance and gradually adding mileage every day over a period of time. Start off simple. A couple miles every day. That's only about 14/week. Get used to running every day. Gradually add to each days run over a period of time. Build slow. There's no award for how fast you can bump up the miles. So perhaps in 6 months you can be running 5-6 miles daily. That's 35-40 MPW. Hold it there for a few months. Next fall build some more. 7-8 miles daily would be 50+ MPW. Keep the majority at an easy effort. Just running consistently at a decent volume without any real focus on speedwork should help you improve. Keep your speed limited to some strides, fartleks, surges, or the occasional 5-10K race. Give your body a good year at consistent mileage to strengthen all the muscles, tendons, ligaments, etc. Then adopt a race plan for whatever distance you're looking to race. That plan will go back to the more traditional long runs coupled with tempos and interval work.

Take your time, do it right, and you can kick some butt when you get to the 40-44 AG.

Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!


fishgo

Nov 13, 10 7:33

Post #23 of 28 (2063 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Some Thoughts:

You and I have similar numbers, both in terms of body size and in race pacing. Although I swim a touch faster, my run splits are within seconds of yours. Your injuries are very similar ones that I struggle through as well.

Since you are trying to shrink your muscle mass, you need to be protective of the strength required to move your body on the bike and run. My weakness has always been core and hip strength. If I stay doing a Pilates or regular core program, focusing on the hips, glutes, back, etc., my running and biking will be fine. If I neglect it, then the Piriformis, glutes (medius, minimus, hip flexors) will be trigger points for referred pain. And it can refer into the IT bands and knee.

Does your lower back get sore when you swim (especially when you get out of the pool)?
Do you seem to have a good bike set-up, but can get a knee pain when ramping up the mileage? Knee pain as perhaps under the kneecap or on the inside or lower part of the knee?
Does your IT band flair up, or hurt when you use a foam roller? Does the knee hurt when you use the roller down the lower part of the IT band?
When sitting, does the outside of the hips (glute minimus or median) hurt after prolonged time in the chair?

Weight training has become a bit of a four-letter word in this forum, but to help keep these injuries at bay, I have to scale back some of the bike and run mileage (and pace) for a bit, and work on a consistent, daily, repeatable core strengthening exercises. The kinds a PT might recommend, or the stability ball exercises, or the kinds recommended in the Bicycling Magazine workout sections. Side planks, forward planks are both highly recommended.

Give yourself a good month of building these exercises and see if it helps. If you are doing these now, you might have some structural problem (torn or aggravated labrium? -- the cartledge around the hip socket) perhaps.

At least this is my world. Take it for the 2 cents it may be.


SWM_LIKE_A_ROCK

Nov 13, 10 9:56

Post #24 of 28 (2009 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [fishgo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks both Don and fishgo for the advice.
Don- I am convinced now that the slow base building will benefit me the most, though I know it will not be for this upcoming season. I will still race but I will have a different expectation for myself. I really appreciate the time you took to give me advice.

Fishgo- thanks for the time you took. I have started doing some of the things you said in the last week or so and I think I already feel a difference. I was, still am, pretty muscle bound from my bodybuilding days and I know all this tightness has contributed to my injuries. You described many of my aches and pains perfectly so you know what I mean. I will keep at it and add some of your suggestions as well. Thanks.

Thanks to everyone for all the input and advice.

"It's too dangerous and expensive to ride with d*ckheads" -tridork




BarryP

Nov 14, 10 18:08

Post #25 of 28 (1882 views)
Re: BarryP., Desert Dude, Other Running Gurus Please Advise: Base Training After Failed Marathon Buildup [craigstrispot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The quick answer (will follow up later):

Look at the three paces on McMillan - easy, long, and recovery - if you are anywhere in that area on your runs, you are doing okay. The fast end is for days when you feel good, the slow end is for days when you feel tired and sore.

Have a recent stand alone time? Since you are out of season, out of shape, coming off injury, etc. Assume that that time is a little faster than your current condition. Put in a time that is a little slower. No stand alone time? Use your tri-run time, but use twice the distance. ie Take your Oly run time and calculate that pace out for a half mary and use that.

Check out part 3 of my plan and scroll down to Oly training. Basically you'll want to spend a few months of just base building. Transition into one threshold run a week. Before your A races, count back 4-8 weeks and add the second workout in there. If you have lots of A race, use the 4 week window. If you have one really important A race, use the 8 week window. Make sure that at least half of your race season is in that transition phase...ie just one threshold run a month. This will help with long term development. More milage with some threshold training is going to help you long term better than hammering intervals all summer.

Keep in mind my limitations on intervals. Many people do too much too fast. You really just need to get the work in and recover.

Max milage? You won't get there. ; ^ ) 60 miles a week with a long run of 15-18 miles is good training for an Oly. As long as you keep the proportions the same...maybe you get up to 3.5, 7, and 10.5 mile runs, you'll be fine. People will warn you about not making the long run too long for Oly training. This is true, which is why I talk about the proportions. 15-18 is not too long for a 60 mile a week guy, but most of us are not 60 mile a week guys.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

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