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Barefoot Running

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lulu

Nov 16, 09 13:18

Post #1 of 51 (2212 views)

Barefoot Running	Can't Post

OK - I'm the trillionth person to have read "Born to Run" recently. Is running barefoot legit or does it fail to take into account that the world wasn't paved in the days of early man? Sort of along the same lines: is getting used to running 1/2 marathons and fulls in racing flats a good or bad idea?

lulu

nothing focuses the mind like a death sentence

rroof

Nov 16, 09 14:45

Post #2 of 51 (2157 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [lulu] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It is pretty hard NOT to want to go out and just RUN after reading the book ;). You can search online for "opposing" views, try it yourself (assuming a reasonably normal foot), etc. Some acclimate quite well and become proponents (I believe the more recent term is "fan boy") and some get injured. Most find the happy medium, understand both "sides" if you will, and end up a better runner in the end regardless. Good luck!
____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

tigerchik

Nov 16, 09 16:28

Post #3 of 51 (2090 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Are you seeing an increase in injuries from people trying barefoot running?
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mmm, pi!

rroof

Nov 16, 09 16:37

Post #4 of 51 (2077 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [tigerchik] [In reply to]	Can't Post

To answer, you need to understand that "barefoot" or minimal running is definitely NOT a new thing, McDougal's book is (well, couple of years). I even have some patient's do it as I am not at all opposed to it and even encourage some.

So, an increase? Honestly, NO
____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

tigerchik

Nov 16, 09 16:39

Post #5 of 51 (2069 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Gotcha. I thought it was kind of a new fad. IE seeing articles about it in magazines for the first time. Maybe I'm just behind the times.
_____________
mmm, pi!

burnman

Nov 16, 09 16:46

Post #6 of 51 (2055 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [rroof] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Any idea what the acclimation curve looks like on shoeless running? I have to imagine that it takes several weeks at low duration (or high frequency) before the 'undertrained' muscles can catch up. I am looking to move out of my scaffold-type shoes and get into something a little more minimalist over the winter months. At one point I bought shoes to fit my running condition. Now, I feel like I'm adjusting my running condition to fit my shoes.

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Hunting is only a sport if your prey is human and he shoots back.

sas

Nov 16, 09 16:58

Post #7 of 51 (2037 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [lulu] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I read somewhere that the unpaved paths were/are actually so packed down from travel that they are actually as hard as running on pavement.

I bought a pair of vff's and I worked on tweaking my form for about 4 months wearing regular shoes before I found "Born to Run". Then I couldn't resist any longer and started running in them. I did a few runs barefoot which were fun, but I liked running in the VFF's better. I think my ramp up was a lot faster than what I sort of figure is the "average" transition: I went from regular running shoes (maybe avg'ing mid-20's per week) to running in the vff's 16 miles in week 1 (3 runs), 19 miles in week 2 (4 runs), and then 40 miles in week 3 (5 runs). Maybe it was the vff's or the high after reading the book, I don't know, but I was having fun!

Despite some of my longer runs, I still pulled back and ran in regular running shoes for a hilly 1/2 marathon. Running downhill is a bit of a challenge, the race was in VT and I was tending to lose "form" at about 9-10 miles in. I really haven't gotten back to running in them since I had a series of more 1/2 marathons and I never figured out how it would work in the colder weather/snow. I'll probably get back to them when things thaw out in NE.

sametime

Nov 16, 09 17:13

Post #8 of 51 (2024 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [lulu] [In reply to]	Can't Post

it took me 5-6 months to become comfortable running on or off road for 10-12 miles in vibrams. Initially it felt like the tendons and ligaments were carrying most of the stress and were perpetually sore. As the muscles of my feet have conditioned and have become active in the process the aches and pains have resolved.

The benefit in my shod times has been crazy. The change in running mechanics and leg strength from this process has been the source. With this change in mechanics and decreased injury rate the weekly running mileage as gone from 20-25 to 40-50. Half the mileage is on vibrams, the other half on Newtons or Asics Banditos. Racing is all on Newtons. My 5-10 k times have dropped by 15-30 seconds a mile. Knocked 11 minutes off a 1/2 marathon from one year ago on the same course. Maybe I was just really slow before all of this. But, after 40 plus years of competitive running and 58 years old I never expected this level of improvement.

lulu

Nov 16, 09 17:20

Post #9 of 51 (2013 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [sametime] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Where do you do your barefoot running? Grass, treadmill, track? Also, could you tell me what type of shoe you were running in before you went to Newton, Bandito and feet? What do your barefoot workouts consist of?

Thanks!

lulu

nothing focuses the mind like a death sentence

sametime

Nov 16, 09 17:59

Post #10 of 51 (1960 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [lulu] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Vibrams. Just walked around in them for a couple of weeks. Initial run was track. Went to trails and grass and then a mix of trail and hard surface. Now, it really doesn't matter what surface I'm on. Weekends, typically 10-12 miles of trails. During the week a day or two of 5 miles with a mix of grass and concrete. Another day of stadium ramp and stair climbs for an hour or so. I mix these climbs with core body work.

Came off of 15 years of Asics Kayano

Typically use the Banditos for a second weekend run that is usually only a few miles to the pool. The cushion and slight heel lift takes some stress off of what I just may have bruised, and the achiilles.

The gait mechanics I have developed from the Vibrams have converted right to the Newtons,

I was surprised being a fairly well conditioned runner, that my feet weren't strong enough to channel my leg power; and that it took this long to get a match.

I now think of my shoes as a prosthetic device. I think for years I have let the equipment drive me, I am now driving the equipment. I think a shoe, in an orthopedically correct individual, should get out of the way allowing the runner to utilize intrinsic mechanics and protect the runner from road hazards. I think any road flat would serve this purpose as have the Newtons for me, but I really like the road feel and return afforded by the Newton design.

SeasonsChange

Nov 16, 09 18:02

Post #11 of 51 (1956 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [lulu] [In reply to]	Can't Post

it fails to take into account that the world wasn't paved in the days of early man

yes.

born to run fails to realize that everyone was not made to be a runner. look at phelp's morphology and feet, definitely not a runner.

ianpeace

Nov 16, 09 18:06

Post #12 of 51 (1948 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [lulu] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Lulu,

Here's my chronology...read Born to Run with my book club in September and drank the cool aid. McDougal's a good writer, it's a good story, the logic behind bare-foot running seemed sound and I know that many elite runners have been incorporating bits of this for ages. So I started with 1.5 miles on grass - oh, and I have been running in the K-Swiss K-Ona for ~18months going into that. While it's not a race flat, it's pretty darn light and I've been working on changing my run over the last 4 years to being a fore-foot runner.

Okay, so I start with 1.5 miles and build up to today - my longest barefoot run to date: 5 miles. I find that I have zero issues with lower limb connective tissue or muscle strain. There were only two adaptations I have made: 1) the skin on the bottom of my feet get's a bit raw after each run so I run barefoot on Monday mornings (I run mill on Monday nights) and the bottom of my feet kinda tingle a bit for 3-4 days, 'til Thursday as the skin heals. The skin is getting tougher. 2) I've been spending more time "rolling" the bottoms of my feet on a lacrosse ball to help massage out any potential plantar issues.

I run on grass but there are moments where I have to run on asphalt at street crossings - in 5 miles today...perhaps 600m was on pavement. And there are moments of dirt and a few moments of rocky dirt in there too but I've been able to run across them all without issue.

I find I cannot run slowly when barefoot, my pace is just faster. I also just love how natural the whole experience - when I run long trail I load up with hat, fuel belt, socks, shoes, tech shirt, sunglasses, etc. When I run barefoot I find myself getting down to just legal covering - shorts only - just feels right.

What else - I heard McDougal speak here in LA a few weeks back: nice guy, down to earth, swears a lot, I like him. Could see running a 10k in vffs but they're awfully expensive so I'll probably pass on that and just keep training once a week barefoot and see how it goes.

All the best, Ian
Ian Murray
www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com the adult pathway to your best performances..
If you're into Twitter - @triathlondvd.

coachjoegold

Nov 16, 09 18:32

Post #13 of 51 (1903 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [ianpeace] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Vibrams are expensive. So I go with the next best thing...XC flats. Basically the same mechanics as barefoot running, but with only a $30-$50 price tag.
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Wednes December 30
1200m easy swim and 5 mi run

Mountain Goat

Nov 16, 09 19:34

Post #14 of 51 (1833 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [lulu] [In reply to]	Can't Post

About the whole idea of man being evolutionarily designed for barefoot running...... keep in mind the different people of the world. Sub-Saharan Africans need not wear shoes, but a northern European? Those of us with such lineage have hundreds of generations of shoe wearing ancestors for the simple reason that its cold most of the year. Would the gait of a European thus have evolved differently from an African? Are caucasians designed to wear shoes?

msuguy512

Nov 16, 09 21:09

Post #15 of 51 (1767 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [burnman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

yes you can make up decades of atrophy & imbalances in a matter of a few weeks!

I am now able to do ~2-3 4mile runs a week with my wave universes and also find that running is a lot more enjoyable doing it the 'proper' way

msuguy512

Nov 16, 09 21:14

Post #16 of 51 (1759 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [Mountain Goat] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't see how having the ability to wear shoes would make one more probable to procreate leading to a genetic advantage.

only takes a few weeks to begin the destruction of the foot musculature after shoving it in a shoe

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/flat-feet-treatment/

rhet0ric

Nov 16, 09 21:54

Post #17 of 51 (1745 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [Mountain Goat] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think part of what the book is saying is that the evolution of the human body took place in a much longer timeframe than we are used to thinking about.

For instance, the part about persistence hunting, where people would catch their prey by wearing them down through endurance running. This refers to a time before humans had tools and weapons. And that pre-weapon period of time is much longer than the post-weapon period, by a big factor (hundreds of thousands of years).

The same thing would go with Sub-Saharan Africans versus Northern Europeans. We share a common evolutionary past that is vastly longer in duration than these geographic/ climatic distinctions.

Graham

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http://www.grahambarron.com/ Graham Barron Design: Custom west coast house design

nickwhite

Nov 16, 09 22:01

Post #18 of 51 (1740 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [coachjoegold] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Vibrams are expensive. So I go with the next best thing...XC flats. Basically the same mechanics as barefoot running, but with only a $30-$50 price tag.

X2. I like this approach much better.

....

Nov 16, 09 22:12

Post #19 of 51 (1734 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [SeasonsChange] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Phelps's morphology is a lot more adapted to running than it is to swimming...

moulli

Nov 16, 09 22:37

Post #20 of 51 (1724 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [Francois] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ha. So true.

Reminds me of some "I'm bored" googling I did a while back which showed that the fastest swimmer - Sail fish (70mph) has about the same top speed as the fastest runner - Cheetah, also 70mph.

So, on a relative basis, compared to the animal / fish kingdoms, if Phelps can run faster than he can swim, he is a better runner than swimmer. He can probably run 100m in ~15 seconds? He can swim it in 47.

....

Nov 16, 09 22:41

Post #21 of 51 (1722 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [moulli] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Any human (assuming two functioning legs) is better adapted to running than to swimming. Even Phelps. Even Thorpe.
In swimming terms in the animal kingdom, we suck ass.

See it that way...for a gold fish, me or Phelps, same shit, we can't swim for crap, given a gold fish can easily swim 25mph... :-)

We have no fins, we're not hydrodynamic, we can't breathe under water we don't have a spine that runs all along our bodies...We are truly not designed to swim. Phelps is designed to suck less, that's all.

MarkyV

Nov 16, 09 23:24

Post #22 of 51 (1702 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [Francois] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

We have no fins, we're not hydrodynamic, we can't breathe under water we don't have a spine that runs all along our bodies...We are truly not designed to swim. Phelps is designed to suck less, that's all.

I need to use that in my clinics and coaching. Up to now I could only bore people with...

Bike/ZERO technique(cranks do it for you).....

run/sorta technique (yer bipedal, right?).....

swimming/lotta technique.... human body, foreign enviornment, zero gravity, horizantol position.
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@MarkyV
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furiousferret

Nov 16, 09 23:32

Post #23 of 51 (1697 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [MarkyV] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm way too injury prone to 'try' barefoot running.

One of the problems with these fads (and yes, its not new but its a fad now) is that people wont report the negative effects of it because they've invested so much into selling the fad.

Bob Loblaw

Nov 17, 09 4:17

Post #24 of 51 (1625 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [lulu] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

what do you hope to get out of barefoot running?
it seems to me that there are the following groups:
-people who can run and stay healthy in barefeet or in running shoes
-people who can run and stay healthy if wearing running shoes, but not in barefeet
-people who can run and stay healthy if running barefoot, but not in running shoes
-people who can't run and stay healthy.

so far, i'm thinking that i'm in group 2,and don't plan on risking finding out if i'm in group 1 or not . if i was more injury prone, or become more injury prone, i'd check it out. but for now, if it ain't broke...
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http://positivesplits.blogspot.com

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garageman

Nov 17, 09 4:29

Post #25 of 51 (1619 views)

Re: Barefoot Running [lulu] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Recently I did a 5 k race here in Saigon - I had a great race - overall something like 10th. about 4 of the people in front of me ran with no shoes - and they were flying.

I wouldnt say that running without shoes is for everyone - but these dudes certainly pulled it off. They have probably never used running shoes.

Personally I feel much better spending 100 bucks every 3 months so that Nike can make some money

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