Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both?

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Slowtwitch Forums: Triathlon Forum:
"Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both?

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Drew_O

Jul 3, 08 9:04

Post #1 of 31 (1530 views)

"Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both?	Can't Post

In looking at recent-vintage tri bikes, it seems that most are doing the aero brake thing: rear brake under the BB, front brake behind the fork, or both. While this seems like a good idea in the "eyeball wind tunnel," does anyone know whether and to what extent it actually makes a difference?

It strikes me that many of them have the rear brake exposed to relatively "clean" air under the BB, rather than tucked behind the frame where it's actually more fared; they're hiding the brake from the rider, not from the wind. And in front, I wonder whether the whole boundary layer separation idea wouldn't make an aero trailing edge on the fork more important than an aero leading edge. But of course that's just MY eyeball wind tunnel impression! Anyone seen actual data on this??

Rokko

Jul 3, 08 9:12

Post #2 of 31 (1495 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Drew_O] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Data? We don't need no stinkin' data.

Just as long as it looks cool, is made of carbon, and we can pay a boatload of money to have it. We are triathletes, after all.
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Blazeman Warrior
IM Wisconsin

Flanagan

Jul 3, 08 9:16

Post #3 of 31 (1468 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Drew_O] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm skeptical about it too. Even if it is faster, I think I would be hesitant to embrace the technology, because I'm not very mechanically inclined. It seems it would be harder to work on the brake if it is tucked away down at the BB. Also, I like to have the ability to adjust my brakes on the fly in a race if needed. If brake cable gets stuck, so the brake caliper is closed, right now it is fairly easy to open the brake (yes I understand it is dangerous to ride without a brake, and I am not advocating anyone should ever do the same). I actually had that happen once in a race. The return spring on my brake level failed, so the cable was pulled and the brake was closed. I opened the brake on the fly, and I was OK. If that has ever happened to you, then it likely is not something you want to race without.

Also, I figure if Fabian Cancellara can ride his P3C 3-4 mph faster over 40K, then I shouldn't be worrying about where my rear brake is placed.

I think it will be interesting to see what the design of the P4C looks like. I feel like there are a lot of naysayers right now about the location of the brake, but those folks might sing a different tune if Cervelo goes that route. Hopefully I won't do a 180 too...

Blog...blah blah blah...updated 9/14...A Big Win

brider

Jul 3, 08 9:47

Post #4 of 31 (1408 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Drew_O] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I like the BB placement of the brake on looks alone, regardless of whether it produces more or less drag. It just look sso much cleaner.
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Non-racing member of Team Zoot/GU and part of the ST PowerCranks review squad

andrew

Jul 3, 08 9:54

Post #5 of 31 (1392 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Drew_O] [In reply to]	Can't Post

the hooker and zipp frames both used the bottom bracket brake placement, but also both used a center pull brake with a smooth shape, so they eliminated the brake (and more important the cable) from the seat stay and, at the same time, didn't clutter up the space under the bb. as for the front brake mounted behind the fork, until someone comes up with a more effective brake than the current tektro/oval that is being used now....no thanks. not only is it total crap for braking efficiency, the stupid cabling, with the flexible metal housing guide probably negates any potential drag savings that the placement might provide.

________________________________________________________________________
"that which does not destroy me will only make me stronger" Frederick Nietzsche

andrew peabody
http://BREAKAWAYMULTISPORT.COM
BMC Mafia

Orcaman

Jul 3, 08 9:59

Post #6 of 31 (1372 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Drew_O] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Who knows. There has to be something newer, bigger, better for us to buy, right ;)

Personally I don't like it as on some bikes you can't use anything other than the brakes that they supply, and I like my zero gravity's.

Member of the Litespeed Factory Team
www.litespeed.com

BMAN

Jul 3, 08 10:28

Post #7 of 31 (1319 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Orcaman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

That is the issue I have with the new Specialized as you are forced to use their brakes and I am not 100% sure I believe that their brakes are far better than standard.

I do however think that having the brake inside of the fork would be a better design and hydraulic so that the cables are all internally run. Not done yet but I have a feeling that we are very close to having this happen on a tri bike.
Aero & Light is Right Wink

Wink

andrew

Jul 3, 08 10:58

Post #8 of 31 (1260 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Bman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I do however think that having the brake inside of the fork would be a better design and hydraulic so that the cables are all internally run. Not done yet but I have a feeling that we are very close to having this happen on a tri bike.

kinda like this?

http://www.canyon.com/...logy/project005.html

________________________________________________________________________
"that which does not destroy me will only make me stronger" Frederick Nietzsche

andrew peabody
http://BREAKAWAYMULTISPORT.COM
BMC Mafia

BMAN

Jul 3, 08 11:07

Post #9 of 31 (1240 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [andrew] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes that is where I had seen it done before but what I mean by tri bike is something that will be mass produced and be available to buy. I think this was just a prototype for a show correct? Also I am not sure this is a bike that would be used in a triathlon as I am sure that the STA would be slack. Could be wrong however. There are a few good ideas on this bike that should be looked at for true aerodynamics.
Aero & Light is Right Wink

Wink

(This post was edited by Bman on Jul 3, 08 11:07)

bunnyman

Jul 3, 08 18:18

Post #10 of 31 (1073 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Bman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Cheetahs use hydraulic brakes.

I would almost say that a disc brake could be extremely aero if executed correctly.

------------------------------------------------------------

Dammit! I still smell like cotton candy!!!

gregclimbs

Jul 4, 08 13:43

Post #11 of 31 (882 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [bunnyman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I would almost say that a disc brake could be extremely aero if executed correctly.

Really?

Seeing as how there already is a difference between drive side and non-drive side drag @ yaw, I cannot see how a rotor floating out parallel to boths wheels would HELP aerodynamics...

probably hard to beat this setup:

g

greg
www.wattagetraining.com

bunnyman

Jul 4, 08 13:51

Post #12 of 31 (866 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [gregclimbs] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The key is to execute it properly. I was working on that before I stopped working on such things.

The set-up you show isn't bad, and is probably the best (aerodynamically) with parts that are currently available, albeit hard-to-find.

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Dammit! I still smell like cotton candy!!!

dtreeps

Jul 4, 08 14:44

Post #13 of 31 (813 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [gregclimbs] [In reply to]	Can't Post

sounded like it didn't work for gtingley....

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

Drew_O

Jul 4, 08 14:50

Post #14 of 31 (805 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [dtreeps] [In reply to]	Can't Post

So, sorry for the ignorance here, but are there aftermarket center-pull "aero" brakes available? Seems like Specialized could just sell their Transition brakes, which could be retrofitted on virtually any bike. Not sure how much difference they really make, though...

brider

Jul 4, 08 16:03

Post #15 of 31 (761 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Drew_O] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Seems like Specialized could just sell their Transition brakes, which could be retrofitted on virtually any bike.

That's the problem -- they can't (be retrofitted). They take proprietary post positions (like cantilever brakes).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Non-racing member of Team Zoot/GU and part of the ST PowerCranks review squad

Tom A.

Jul 4, 08 16:27

Post #16 of 31 (742 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Drew_O] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

So, sorry for the ignorance here, but are there aftermarket center-pull "aero" brakes available? Seems like Specialized could just sell their Transition brakes, which could be retrofitted on virtually any bike. Not sure how much difference they really make, though...

Do you mean something similar to this?

stal

Jul 4, 08 16:51

Post #17 of 31 (710 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

cool...more pics from different angles for potential copiers please!

any noticeable loss of braking power?

brandonecpt

Jul 4, 08 17:18

Post #18 of 31 (682 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I can't believe how narrow that front wheel is! It's like it has no frontal area at all! Who needs wings on their tires now?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08

Tom A.

Jul 4, 08 21:48

Post #19 of 31 (588 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [stal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

cool...more pics from different angles for potential copiers please!

any noticeable loss of braking power?

Sure...more pics and some description are here:

http://www.wattagetraining.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3

Braking power is OK for a front brake on a TT rig (I'm not a big fan of being able to easily lock up my front brake), but it's still using the pads that came stock with the Oval. I'm sure it would improve if I used some KoolStop pads.

Tom A.

Jul 4, 08 21:50

Post #20 of 31 (585 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [brandonecpt] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I can't believe how narrow that front wheel is! It's like it has no frontal area at all! Who needs wings on their tires now?

Actually...there is no front wheel. I just ride a wheelie for the whole race...wait, what the heck do I still need a front brake for then?? ;-)

BMAN

Jul 4, 08 22:14

Post #21 of 31 (575 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I would actually sell (ok put them on a different bike) my Zero Gravity Ti brakes to do up a similar set up to this. You could do this on the back of the bike as well with one of the seat clamp mounts that you use for cyclo cross rear brake set ups and that mount is very light.

Very well done.
Aero & Light is Right Wink

Wink

sab2go

Jul 4, 08 22:26

Post #22 of 31 (562 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Bman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Aero brake placement will be part of the future in cycling, however I forsee after the surge or electronic shifting that perhaps there will be electronic brakes. After all I just built up a B2 and a Felt DA and was dissapointed with the overall setup in the rear brake.

Added some companies do it very well as opposed to others ie : Willier, Specialized to name a couple.

They will come and go but they will remain on the scene....

G
Oct 1 - Apr 1 training in Maui.

http://cyclinganb.blogspot.com/

dtreeps

Jul 5, 08 5:21

Post #23 of 31 (488 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

cool idea, let me know when you aero test it as we've got the same bike (for now: I've got no plans to get a carbon one for a long time).

Dan
www.aiatriathlon.com

TriBriGuy

Jul 5, 08 5:41

Post #24 of 31 (478 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [Tom A.] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Pffft! If you had any REAL attention to detail, Tom...you'd have used a simple metal crimp to attach the brake cable to the cross cable...and what's with the cable end cap? Solder that bad boy and cut it off!

Sheesh...do we have to teach you everything?

;-)

********************
AmZof Lemming

Tom A.

Jul 5, 08 6:56

Post #25 of 31 (439 views)

Re: "Aero" brake placement: way of the future, total crock, or both? [TriBriGuy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Pffft! If you had any REAL attention to detail, Tom...you'd have used a simple metal crimp to attach the brake cable to the cross cable...and what's with the cable end cap? Solder that bad boy and cut it off!

Sheesh...do we have to teach you everything?

;-)

Well...if you read the thread in the link, I'm not done yet :-) My next task is to get rid of the straddle cable and at the same time make it a bit more "aero"...I'll let you know how that turns out.

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