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1st IM Training Question - Marathon

kprsal

Oct 6, 08 9:17

Post #1 of 20 (667 views)

1st IM Training Question - Marathon	Can't Post

I'm working out my training schedule for CDA 09, it'll be my 1st IM. I wanted to run a marathon at the end of January. Some people say go do it, others say don't do it. What's your opinion?

If I do run the marathon, from Oct. - Jan. do I mainly focus on marathon training, or try to add the swim/bike into it as well. My plan was to mainly train for marathon, but get a long swim in each week as well as 1-2 bike sessions in each week.

At first I thought the marathon was a good idea, now I'm not sure. Thanks for your thoughts. --Sally

LarryP

Oct 6, 08 9:35

Post #2 of 20 (643 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

If you are thinking about using the marathon to prepare for the IM, then I would say skip the marathon, continue your multisport training, and find a goal half marathon to give you a running focus over the winter.

If both the marathon and the IM are important to you, it is possible to perform reasonably well in both but you need to go into the process aware that racing a marathon is not optimal prep for racing your best IM.

Either way, if IM CDA is your goal you are right to do some bike and swim maintenance workouts during the marathon focus period.

linhardt

Oct 6, 08 9:50

Post #3 of 20 (622 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Are you a runner? If running is not your forte I would not setup a training plan for a mary. Personally running/marathons were the gateway drug to IM.

As for training I believe you can really do all three. For a basic mary 25-30 mpw is sufficient, which is 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 hours per week. Swimming 6K meters takes 2 1/2 hours excluding commute to/from pool. This would leave 3-4 hours for biking assuming a 10 hour workout week, which could be considered low.

Overall having run a marathon gave me confidence in finishing IM. Your body hurts during and after a fast mary. With IM I have never felt as great of physical pain. GI yes, but not the evil burning quads and the frankenstein walking.

There is feeling of confidence getting of the bike and realizing that you have done the distance before, so psychologically it is not as daunting and unlike an open mary you can listen to your body and pace the run more based on feel at that given moment.

TriUno83

Oct 6, 08 12:12

Post #4 of 20 (525 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [linhardt] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Curious to hear more opinions, as I'm in a similar boat. Running is my weak link (although I'm not necessarily bad at it, just better at the first 2), and I've been advised before to get a full marathon under my belt prior to the first IM, but I'm not convinced yet. I do kinda want to do one just for its own sake of having run a marathon, but the IM is the bigger goal, and I see the above advice as biased because it came from a runner. I'm in the camp that believes the 3rd leg of a Tri and Running are 2 different animals, especially the longer the distance. Psychologically, I agree it'd be nice knowing i've done it before, but realistically and physically my bigger worry is being able to sustain the training load I think it would take to RUN a decent marathon (very little or no walking, only as a last resort) whereas I'm pretty confident I can endure a IM leg with some more expected walking mixed in (hopefully less than 20%)with the typical slow shuffle.

Basically, I can do almost anything once (of course i'll be sore but it'll go away if I rest long enough), but in the past I've had a hard time avoiding injury (a few chronic issues up & down my left leg) trying to run anything beyond than what I'd consider a minimum maintenance level of running (~3-4 miles, 2-3X/wk, which is my year-round baseline). It doesn't seem that difficult to go further (~5-7 miles, or even more) if I have the time on a particular day, but relatively isolated longer runs feel harder in terms of recovery time. On the other hand, if I keep it shorter but instead try to add another run per week then it will usually end up meaning back-to-back days at some point which appears to be where things really start to fall apart. Again, I don't think that'll keep me from being able to do enough of an IM slog to reach my goal (11:XX), but it's hard to see running a decent open marathon on <20mpw with that little frequency, and I don't see much point in even bothering to show up on the starting line just to do one that slow.

It's frustrating, because in biking and swimming, training more/harder generally equals improvement, whereas with running it gets counterproductive at a much lower threshold.

linhardt

Oct 6, 08 12:29

Post #5 of 20 (497 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [TriUno83] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

advice as biased because it came from a runner.

I never ran track or cross country. Outside of gym class I don't think had ever run a mile until I was 32. Most people would not consider me a runner.

Let me expand the story a bit. In August of 2004 I started running for the first time just because I stopped losing weight via diet alone. In January, 2005 I did my first half mary. At the end of May I did my first mary and the end of July my first HIM. In November I signed up for IMFL and did that in 2006. So in reality I did not have much running experience at all, but then again I did not come from the swimming or cycling world, which is why I considered myself a runner first.

TriUno83

Oct 6, 08 13:50

Post #6 of 20 (441 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [linhardt] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry I didn't mean you, as the previous poster... I was referring to advice I had gotten personally prior to this. His answers to whatever all pretty much boil down to some variation of more running, so I need to try and filter that somewhat with additional input. It's like the old saw about asking a surgeon whether you need surgery -- maybe you really do, but...?

blueraider_mike

Oct 6, 08 14:10

Post #7 of 20 (417 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You can do both. Run 3-4 times a week, swim and bike 2 times per week, after the race, take a couple weeks off and then start your IM training. I did IMCDA in 2006 and ran a marathon at the end of April - now I didn't race it but running 26 miles is hard at any pace.

TMT

Oct 6, 08 14:37

Post #8 of 20 (394 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

1)I'm not a coach, so keep that in mind when digesting my comments below
2)My bias- I am a minimalist when it comes to training miles in preparing for an IM, even more so when it comes to run miles
3)To answer Y or N to the open mary before your 1st IM, several other questions need to be asked:
a)How long have you been doing tri's?
b)How many previous tri's and what distances AND how have these races gone (more from a body recovery standpoint than time/placing)?
c)Have you completed/raced an open mary before and if so, how'd that go?
d)What is your injury history, if any?
e)What are your goals for your 1st IM? Are you planning on "racing" or treating it like a long training day, exploring the unchartered waters, gaining experience, and seeing what the day brings?

These questions are asked to get an understanding of where you are today (from a "cumulative fitness" standpoint) vs. where you will want to be in preparations for the open mary and/or the 1st IM next year. This will provide perspective on what training load your body has been able to handle to date.

4)Training/racing injuries are caused more by running than swimming and cycling. When you read that comment, my knee-jerk response would likely be "Duh!! Thank you Captain Obvious!!" But for me, it helps frame my running preparation for an IM marathon. To go out and "race" an IM marathon requires a much higher level of experience and training committment (miles/time). To go out and be "prepared" for an IM marathon is much less. If I hit the START line at IM 100% healthy and feel prepared, there are a lot less mental demons I'm battling during the race.

5)For me, racing an open mary is harder on the body than racing an IM marathon.

6)Most telling question of all: What do you WANT to do? Life is too short to pursue to "perfect training mix". My ideal race preparations go out the window every week with real life stuff. Many folks on the Forum here have great advice. Advice I received one time was to not worry about every workout, but rather look at the training from a higher perspective.

Good luck, enjoy the journey! Taking on the IM distance the first time around is a pretty special experience.
Tad

It took awhile, but I finally discovered that its not the destination that's important, but rather the journey.

big kahuna

Oct 6, 08 15:38

Post #9 of 20 (365 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm working out my training schedule for CDA 09, it'll be my 1st IM. I wanted to run a marathon at the end of January. Some people say go do it, others say don't do it. What's your opinion?

Running two marathons in a year, especially when you're planning on your very first IM-distance race, doesn't seem to be too advisable. I mean, what's the point? To get "ready" for IMCDA? There are better ways of doing that in training and in shorter-distance races. There's a mythology surrounding running a decent 26.2 miles at an IM that manages to suck some people in.

Better to avoid the physiological toll it'll take on your body in the year in which you want to race and do well in your first Ironman.

T.

john b

Oct 6, 08 15:38

Post #10 of 20 (365 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm not a coach either, but I've run 8 marathons on their own, and 2 as part of IMC, and I believe I was paying attention at least some of the time. The #1 issue here is recovery - if you do a marathon hard, the necessary recovery time is going to eat into your training time - as well as hurting you're just not going to feel like it for a bit.

If you have a lot of experience in running long distances I would suggest this rule of thumb:
1.Marathon was tiring but no pain: it was just a long run; eat lots of carbs afterwards and continue training normally.
2. Last couple of miles hurt: take it easy for a few days - you can be training normally in about a week.
3. Last 6 or more miles hurt: back way off hard training for between 2 and 8 weeks (depending on age/health/experience etc.).
4. More than half of it hurt: you're a mighty stud to have finished it, but you need to take care of yourself; maybe do something next year, only sooner if you're young and very resilient!
...and I'm just talking about the kind of hurt that we (rightly or wrongly) attribute to 'lactate' - if you're injured, back way off, and find a rehabilitation programme.
I'd say 1 and 2 are OK, but the others will interfere with your IM prep.
j
"I'm going to stick to my sardines" - Cassidy
"Others took their lemons and stood up and walked." - Kestrelkerri
"I will never know quite why I set out on the run. I guess because it was next." - Nachocheese
"No, just to people on the Forum. My athletes are the control group." - Paulo Sousa
" Actually, I am naturally an Asshole....not unlike the way you are naturally an idiot." IRONLOBO

AndyPants

Oct 6, 08 15:46

Post #11 of 20 (352 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Skip the marathon. The recovery time plus the potential for injury far outweighs any mental benefit you may receive.

Ap
------------------------
AndyPantsRacing
------------------------
Co-founder of FoodSluts (TM) - where training is a warm-up to eating.

tallguy

Oct 6, 08 17:18

Post #12 of 20 (323 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Personally, I think running is the key to judging fitness and potential for triathlon. If you bike 23 MPH, but run a 10 minute mile, that ten minute mile will dramatically change your potential place more than 1 or 2 MPH (can somebody verify my math :) ) Before my first Ironman I did not do a full marathon. I ran a half-mary in 1:30 and a couple of months later I did the running portion of the half-iron in 1:40. I was lucky, only receiving entry to the my first Ironman at the 70.3 event 3 months before the race. Three months of focused Ironman training was perfect with a half-iron base. I mostly focused on 80-100+ mile bikes and increasing long runs to 14-18 miles. My Ironman marathon ended up being 3:40.

I got injured this year (stupid broken bone skiiing) and I am going to focus on running over the winter to rebuild fitness. My thoughts are that I have March through August to build up biking and swimming. My goal is to focus on the marathon until February, Focus on Biking and swimming March and April and then bring it all together May through August.

I feel running 50+ MPW over the winter will bring my weight back down and rebuild speed and stamina.

To make a long story short, I'm going along with the same mentality you have through the winter. Potentially just doing a spin class during the week and a longer slower bike after a recovery run. There is plenty of time until August.

TBinMT

Oct 6, 08 18:31

Post #13 of 20 (294 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

How much of a runner are you?
Your plan is very similar to what I did for my first and only IM, CDA, in 2007 and it worked well for me. But I am a good runner and not-as-strong cyclist.
I ran like the dickens from Sept. to December (50-70 mile weeks) did just a little cycling and no swimming and raced a December marathon. Then I really started hitting the trainer and the pool starting in January. It worked pretty well. I slowly built up all three sports from Jan to March and once April rolled around I put in 10-hour bike weeks (lots for me) and "got away" with run mileage in the 30s, alternating 12 and 16-mile long runs every week (measly for me). I was top 15% on the bike and top 10% on the run at CDA and I was pleased as punch.
That said, I plan to train a little smarter for the next iron and I doubt I will do a marathon less than 6 months out. A January marathon is right at the edge, since if it really messes you up, you don't have much time to recover or heal if you are injured.

(This post was edited by TBinMT on Oct 6, 08 18:35)

kprsal

Oct 6, 08 19:47

Post #14 of 20 (265 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [TMT] [In reply to]	Can't Post

So many great responses! Thank you. I'm now more confused than ever, but that's good, I can handle the confusion, I like all the advice! To answer some questions in no particular order:
-I'm 37 y/o female.
-Been doing tris for 8 years now all distances, lots of sprints early, moved to Oly's and 3 HIM. Also did Xterras for a few seasons, and got to race Maui (by lottery), so spent a lot of time training for the threshold-redline of off road tris.
-I've ran 2 mary's in my life, 8 and 10 years ago (before I got into tris). Lots of 1/2 marys.
- I wouldn't consider myself a marathon racer, this is just a long run to me. My thought was to build a good strong base now through Jan. I feel like when I'm a fit runner with a strong base, everything else comes so much easier. This past year I didn't have a great running base, and everything else fell apart. The HIM that I did this year I spent a lot more time than usual on the bike, and not as much time running, and I had no legs for my run portion. So I wanted to build the base for the run, and gain the confidence. it's not to see the distance, I've seen it, it's more for the mental aspect. I usually suck at a long distance the first time through, then I'm a completely different person the next time I do it. That's what I was thinking when I was planning a marathon for Jan.
-This past season was filled with injuries (yes, red flag to definitely not do a mary), but part of me wonders if the injuries were because I didn't have the strong running base that I normally have. I could be fooling myself, but that's where all of your help is so nice:)
-as for goals for IMCDA, I have a few, it's my first so in one sense: enjoy it, learn, finish. But I'm more competitive than that, so I have levels of goals.
1. I'd like to be able to run the entire mary for IM
2. My HIM best time is 5:42 on a fast course, so dream goal, break 12:30
3. Realistic goal, Break 13:30
4. Acceptable, break 14, or just finish
Of course, this is all coming from a beginner IMer, so I reserve the right to change my goals when reality hits:) Thanks again for all the responses, feel free to add to my confusion, it's great info!! --Sally

Bux

Oct 6, 08 20:21

Post #15 of 20 (244 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

for my first im i never did an open mary in prep and due to achillies tendonitis never ran further than 17 miles and was able to run the majority of the IMLP course (walked the big hill and several of the aid stations) so if it is purely for mental confidence it is not needed to finish the IM. Training for IMCDA now and I am planning on running a marathon at the end of Jan but not at max effort (going to try and pace myself approx 10 minutes slower than what I would try if I weren't planning the IM) to see if I can go into IMCDA with a strong run base. If I am having any notable tendonitis/issues during the build for the mary I will likely bail on that and try and get healthy for the IM build. During the mary build I will probably run 4-5 times per week, bike 1-2 and swim once.......sorry i can't tell you how it works yet, happy to let you know in June......
Hope is not an effective strategy......

gumby10

Oct 6, 08 20:55

Post #16 of 20 (232 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [AndyPants] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Theoretically, if you don't "race" and you use it as a long run, does it really require that much recovery time?! How different is it than a long run? If you cycle an easy week right after, shouldn't that be enough to recover?

I was going to use a similar plan with the Green Bay marathon for IMWI. Who out there has tried that? I counted the months and I think the time b/t events is as same as the OP. I don't understand why people are saying 'don't do it, especially if you're not a runner.' I am guessing it is because you think runners recover faster and are less likely to get injured? Please explain. If running is your weak link, shouldn't you be running more? Also, shouldn't one recover in a decent amount of time if he/she is adequately prepared for the long run?

Jason D

Oct 6, 08 21:26

Post #17 of 20 (226 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...hon_long_run_P368762

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...search_engine#898118

Digging the up out of the coffers - hope it helps

daveinmammoth

Oct 6, 08 21:52

Post #18 of 20 (216 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I like the "run focus" block for a few months - then maybe a more balanced few months with more bike intensity - then a few months of long rides/runs before IM CDA. If a January marathon helps a run focus - great. You can also do a run focus and race a 10K or a half marathon....I don't think there's anything magic about a marathon per se.

Its very hard mentally and physically to do the same thing to prep for a race 9 months away (at least for me) so why not split it up?

I'll be trying to "race" IM AZ on mainly run training then I'll be at CDA, too!

My only word of caution is don't do anything stupid and get injured....but if you do - just swim/bike more. The beauty of 3 sports.

With "focuses" you can still do some in the other 1-2 other sports - just balance/plan the other training so it has minimal impact on your focus. Its hard to get right....

Dave

TMT

Oct 7, 08 6:34

Post #19 of 20 (183 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sally, one VERY basic rule of thumb I've heard for time predictions for an IM are taking your average HIM time on a similar course, double it, and add 1 hour. So, a 5:45 average HIM would translate to a 12:30 IM. Based on the times you've outlined below, 12:30 is definitely doable (assuming conditions are "normal").

-as for goals for IMCDA, I have a few, it's my first so in one sense: enjoy it, learn, finish. But I'm more competitive than that, so I have levels of goals.
1. I'd like to be able to run the entire mary for IM
2. My HIM best time is 5:42 on a fast course, so dream goal, break 12:30
3. Realistic goal, Break 13:30
4. Acceptable, break 14, or just finish

Tad

It took awhile, but I finally discovered that its not the destination that's important, but rather the journey.

TBinMT

Oct 7, 08 10:42

Post #20 of 20 (134 views)

Re: 1st IM Training Question - Marathon [kprsal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I read this thread again and read Sally's answer and I would urge caution. Sounds like she is more a triathlete than a runner these days.
If the marathon was in Oct. or Nov., I would say go for it. But if CDA is your big goal (sounds like it is), I would watch out.
Basically, January running with a marathon in the middle should go something like this: Week 1: Tapering, so moderate everything, 12 mile long run. Week 2: Major taper so very little training + a 26.2 mile run; Week 3: Recovery, so very little training and almost no running; Week 4: Still recovering so moderate B+S but light running.
Five months before an ultra race, a marathon, done properly, will not advance IM training, especially run training. A couple half marathons (say one in Feb. & one in April) with long warmups and cooldowns counting as long runs might be better. The running taper and recovery periods are much shorter for 13.1, more like 1 week on either side of the race, and not 2 weeks or more.
As far as your goals: I think overall time goals are not as important as realistic "pace" goals for the bike and run. Yes I know they are sort of the same thing, but my mentors (guys with more iron experience) say to concentrate more on those paces in training than on anything else. Good luck!